Curse

upier · Jul 05, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

To use a different argument that pops-up quite a few times when talking about Ursan:
Some people shouldn't be able to do certain areas.
They are called "elite areas" for a reason.
And in the current game - if you aren't elite enough to use Ursan - you shouldn't do them.

brass2themax · Jul 05, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Guys, guys, let's get back on track.

First of all, I was not saying people had to let me into their groups against their will. If they only want to accept Ursan, they have all the right to, and I have no right to say they should let me in. But it does make it VERY hard for me to find a group to play with. I've wasted many hours asking guildies for help, but all of them wanted me to Ursan it but I didn't want to, nor did I have a high enough rank to be effective in it. And I don't have all the time on my hands that others do to get it. My point was just that for me, finding a group is impossible. I've been playing since the beginning, and now someone can join and 2 weeks later be going to areas I used to go to all the time, and have no problem finding a group, while I'm left behind. Heck, I know "that's life", "them's the brakes", but it just doesn't sit right with me, a customer of years, not weeks.

Second of all to quote the above poster: "And in the current game - if you aren't elite enough to use Ursan - you shouldn't do them." So I guess that means I went from pretty damn Elite due to all the time and gold I spent capping tons of elites and other skills, forming good builds, and reaping as much as I could from high level areas of the game in the past, I'm now no longer 1337 because to be 1337 now means to buy GWEN and spend a weekend grinding away on an Ursan title? If I understood what you said correctly, you can be 1337er than me simply by doing that... After a sheer weekend. How sad.

I'm not bashing Ursan Blessing itself, nor saying that it is the sole cause of all this. What I am saying is that, sadly, as a result of the introduction of Ursan Blessing, people now use it on an almost epic scale.

Here is my logic:

Ursan Blessing -> Almost everyone using it -> Almost all groups asking for it -> Scarcity of groups not asking for it/requiring it -> Those that do not look to use it come and go on a completely rare and scattered basis, and therefore don't stick around long enough to be able to form non-Ursan groups because the sheer number of "Ursan-only" groups discourages them before they even start. This is a problem with the people, but that problem exists because of the sheer power of this skill. If this skill did not exist, or was nerfed, the game would "open up" more to everyone like it used to (or at least, more people than it is open to now), because the people would become more accepting.

I've been playing since the very day this game came out, and yet I'm one of the last people able to get into a group anywhere in HM because I don't work on my Ursan title (due to my finding it boring), and I try to find non-Ursan groups with kind people who will let me come along. For God's sake, I've invested all this time and money in the game and can't even get into a group because of the way this skill is causing people to behave (ie. Just focusing on getting it done the quickest way with no exception).

My bottom line is, it's virtually impossible to get a non-Ursan group unless you have connections with guildies that will help you, but nowadays, even most of your guildies have fallen to using Ursan and will tell you they are "busy" or don't have time to help you, simply because they would rather Ursanway and not "waste" their time.

Is there a solution to my problem of not being able to find a group anymore for HM? Quite simply, there is, but the chances of finding a group are still almost zero.

So for this player, this veteran since the beginning, I'm now on the same level as a nub who can't find a group because of inexperience, when in fact, it's not because of that, it's because I don't have a high rank in ONE title track. This one thing has ruining the PvE experience for me. I might as well be a level 1 monk who only heals himself asking to join a group.

I remember when Guild Wars was about fun, NOT "getting it done", but enjoying the rich experience, helping others out, and including those who gave it their all. It's very hard for me to accept that simply by not grinding away on one of many many titles in the game, almost the entire PvE portion of the game itself becomes closed off to me. Yes, it's all due to my own choices in choosing not to work on Ursan, but really, does that seem reasonable? That my enjoyment and ability to play HM PvE is dependent entirely on one of many hundreds of skills in the entire game? WTF, I say.

Sorry if it sort of turned into a rant at the end, but now I feel as if there is nothing left I can do in PvE. Ursan is a wall that prohibits me from advancing. And nothing will make me want to sit there for hours on end to get that title just so I can play in HM with people, because now that seems to be the only way.

One more thing, for those saying this is "just another QQ thread", it might well be, but this is my first time posting about this skill anywhere at all, so it's the first one for me. Please give me a chance to be heard, I do appreciate your feedback. And if you really are getting sick of this kind of discussion, then simply don't post in here, there are many other diverse topics out there.

Let's keep this discussion healthy without flames if possible so it can stay open.

Bryant Again · Jul 05, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

No matter what you do, you cannot help the PUG mentality; they always create a self-inflicted roadblock that is 100% guaranteed to exclude people. The only thing that's keeping PUGs back is not the game but PUGs themselves.

As the days go on, it's becoming harder to understand and even harder to defend Ursan. The only thing it's allowing is people who don't have the patience nor time to learn more about the game. It doesn't help discrimination because it's GW:EN exclusive, causing as much turmoil as professions did. It's not helping "casual newbies" since Ursanways demands are becoming higher and higher due to title rank. And now people are starting to get really picky with it in the form of people wanting "warrior only" Ursanways.

Catering to PUGs doesn't help the game, it hurts it. No matter what you try, there is going to be a certain portion that is the "preferred" set up. Not only that, but old mentalities die hard: many people still believe that no matter what you put on a Paragon's skillbar, he'll always end up useless. And this is the PARAGON we're talking about here!

Hyper Cutter · Jul 05, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Catering to PUGs doesn't help the game, it hurts it.

Exactly, now if we could only get Anet to listen maybe they'd stop trying to make people PUG and start giving us the full hero party we should have had in NF...

Bryant Again · Jul 05, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Well, unless you're amazingly awesome and take millions of things into consideration, helping PUGs usually hurts it. And I'd consider such a flimsy attempt ato "help" PUGs through UB is very much hurting the game. Not only that, but it didn't really help a whole lot due to A. campaign + rank discrimination and the B. ever growing "warrior only" discrimination. So good job, 'Net.

StormDragonZ · Jul 05, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I never used Ursan before till last week. I managed to be at Rank 4 Norn and successfully beat Duncan's part in Slavers' Exile on Hard Mode with a "pug"... the first time ever I've done Slavers' Exile or Duncan's part.

From that knowledge, Ursan deserves some sort of "nerf" though I dislike using that word to reference anything. I actually dislike Ursan Blessing ever since I used it. It is to say... Ursan bored me.

Hell Raiser · Jul 06, 2008, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I don't use UB, but mostly just because I don't party with people anymore (other than my guildies). You have to realize that it's a selling point for EotN (Anets last addition to GW1, and their last release for ~1-2 years). Think back to the other two added campaigns, they both had major selling points. Factions introduced titles/new skills/professions, Nightfall had Heroes, Hero Battles, and overpowered skills like Searing Flames (which was nerfed, probably once NF sold out

). If you really want to do UW/FoW/DoA with PUGs (and many guilds) you'll have to buy EotN to get Ursan (or, if you were a monk, you'd have to buy NF for HB/SeedOfLife). I say who cares at this point, it's a game and it's not like you'll be suffering if the economy crashes.

PS: it's you're own fault if you feel your time in GW was "wasted" because newbies can do it all faster/better now. I've been playing for >3 years and I feel that I had, and I'm still having, fun (without using cheat codes... er I mean ursan blessing).

Bryant Again · Jul 06, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

If it was a "selling point" it'd be on the box: "New overpowered-as-shit skill that's usable by all professions!"

As it is, most players don't even know about it. And it's not "newbies" who are doing it "faster/better now".

Edit: I can understand it being a selling point to the person who say just reached an area and is denied "because he doesn't own GW:EN". However, for each person that buys the campaign because of that, another shuns and condemns the game for the very same reasons.

Angelica · Jul 06, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

I don't know how it is that people are finding it so difficult to team up with players that aren't using Ursan Blessing. There are plenty of people doing HM PvE stuff without this skill.

^^

I agree, I do not use ursan all the time and, I always find groups to play without it.

Hell Raiser · Jul 06, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

As it is, most players don't even know about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

However, for each person that buys the campaign because of that, another shuns and condemns the game for the very same reasons.

Where are you getting all this information from? Did I miss a poll or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And it's not "newbies" who are doing it "faster/better now".

Sorry, I should have worded that better. By "newbies" I mean people who are inexperienced, and without UB wouldn't have the things that they have, such as FoW/Rare weps/Difficult titles.

Skye Marin · Jul 06, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by brass2themax

So as for the argument held by some that Ursan "brings people together", it also sets people apart, and excludes those that want to use an array of cleverly thought-out builds to have fun. This is my main concern.

Ursan is only fun once you go through the drudgery of getting your rank up. But for those of use who refuse to spend hours of our lives doing mindless farming in the same area with the same quest active, what can we do to play the high-level PvE areas without Ursan Blessing? With the advent of this skill, it's hard to find non-Ursan groups, everyone thinks your crazy not to use it, but I myself, and many others out there as well, do not want to use Ursan Blessing because we still enjoy coming up with clever builds and using our professions "properly". Sadly though, even though many of us do hold this view, we don't stay in high level areas long enough to form groups or find others like ourselves because as soon as we see everyone asking for Ursan and turning non-Ursans away, we give up instantly.

Ursan has actually killed my love of PvE, not because I hate the skill, not because I think it's "unfair", and not because it's "easy" (yet time consuming) to acquire: But because it excludes me and others from some certain things we used to enjoy because of our lack of interest in a single PvE-only skill. This one skill is a lockout to an avenue of fun that has now seemingly been closed off for some of us. Not to mention people are so rude if you don't have r"x" Ursan.. It's sad the community became like this.

So let me ask you all: Should a group of r10 Ursans give me a chance with my build and include me in the "fun" if I don't have a high rank in Ursan and cannot find for the life of me, a single other person to adventure with?

Visit The Deep. Try finding a PuG there. You can't. Some areas can't be pugged, and others that can need simple and efficient builds so that PuGs don't fail and frustrate the players there.

Random PuGs in harder areas tend to fail, usually due to build inefficiencies, lack of teamwork which is caused by a lack of defined roles, then add a dash of face-punching mobs, environmental effects and whatever else. If they didn't fail, it would be easier, like the rest of the game is in the starting missions on NM. PuGs there don't usually fail.

Folks who have reached the harder areas enjoy not failing, so order has been made out of chaos. A team build that has been proven efficient has been developed, and people who don't want to fail agree to form groups with this build and include those who also want to run it, in the name if efficiency, that is, efficiency starting up, getting out, and finishing the quest.

This isn't new. In the new Tombs, Barrage/Pet is one example. It works well, people call for it, and run it all the time. Ursan is not much different. Some groups might be misinformed about how effective Ursan r7 is compared to r10, but many don't care. Many just hope that you don't over-aggro and get out of range of the monks. You know, play your role so that failure doesn't occur.

This isn't a bad thing. This is a good thing. It lets people play. Ursan is just one part of a team build, like minions or Barrage is one part of Barrage/Pet. Sway is a PvP example. No single aspect of the build is overpowered, but it is not hard to run once you learn how properly, and easy to set up a random team, and most importantly, you stand a chance to win if you play your role correctly.

Those who want deeper play in harder areas, play beyond PuGs, you need to know how to get groups that aren't PuGs, and the first step is to have and maintain friends list, or be in a like-minded guild.

If your main concern is that Ursan stagnates creative build making, then a duration nerf might be justified, so that Ursan becomes just one part of a player's skill bar, instead of the focus.

If your main concern against is finding a PuG in a high end area that doesn't want a specific build, then nerfing Ursan doesn't solve anything. The next most efficient build will just take its place.

If your main concern against Ursan is that it makes hard zones easier, you'll find that most good skills and team builds do. Energy Surge is better than Energy Burn, and plenty of things are better than Flare on a monk. Knowing AI patterns helps tons, and so does having a general strategy (even things like pulling, shutdown, not over extending, or killing priority targets like hard res characters first). Ursan just happens to be one that works the best. Again, if it's nerfed, the next most efficient build will just take its place.

To extend on this, if your main concern is that this build lets people who haven't beaten the area, beat it after you've already beat it some other way, then you should realize that it does not ever take anything away from you. There are people on the wiki complaining, because you can go back and update your HoM with Obsidian armor once GW2 is released. This is the same, and flawed way of thinking that more people doing things takes away from your personal accomplishments. The first cartographers had it hard, and even they swapped reference maps to find the last nooks. FFF is now streamlined efficient down to a science. The first explorers of the Deep and Urgoz probably died dozens of times, solving traps and simply learning how to progress.

Things get easier as knowledge becomes common. This has always been true.

That's how I see it. If Anet decides to nerf it, I hope they do so for the right reasons, and in the right way, and I hope they explain their justification well, and I hope it's a good one.

Sniper22 · Jul 06, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterT69

join an HM PVE Guild and quit it with all the QQing. Honestly, I could scoop up all the QQ ursan tears and drink 'em from a mug. Believe me, it's not that hard to find non-ursan groups if you're in a HM PVE guild.

Um dude, I'm in a elite pve alliance and all they use is ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brass2themax

So for this player, this veteran since the beginning, I'm now on the same level as a nub who can't find a group because of inexperience, when in fact, it's not because of that, it's because I don't have a high rank in ONE title track. This one thing has ruining the PvE experience for me. I might as well be a level 1 monk who only heals himself asking to join a group.

Dude I'm in the same category. I believe I got GW maybe two weeks after it came out and I have plenty of PvE experience, now I can't get into a single group. Where has the fun gone to? Both anet and the community need to fix this problem. Ursan needs to die and new builds need to be created for all professions to play. I'm a necro so I was pretty lucky into getting into groups. Mesmers usually had the hardest time, and then with factions and nightfall the newer professions may also have trouble as well. GW was actually fun when there was some variety in builds. I could go to the doa to bip, I could go to urgoz to play a minion master, and then I could go to fow to play SS. Now what options do I have. If I manage to get r10 norn what will I be doing? Doa - Ursan, Urgoz/Deep - Ursan, Fow/UW - Ursan Vanquishing - Ursan, Pvp - Urs.... oh wait no thank god.. Where is the fun? Is ursan really fun... 1...2...3....1...ZOMG wait lemme use my cons now so we could go even faster... WOOT that was some pwnage!!!!111 "Skill > Time" has turned into "Time Efficiency > Fun/Skill" PvE only skills shouldn't be available in HM. It is supposed to be "HARD" mode, so overpowered skills and cons sets shouldn't even be allowed. If you can't beat hard mode without it, then you can stick to NM with all the other noobs and give us experienced players our fun back.

BTW finding good "pugs" is have the fun of pve lol. Sometimes its too hard to get a group together randomly from your guild or friends list. Also non-ursan groups will never earn nearly as much money as ursans do cause they are so much faster.... so unfair for a cheap noob build.

Angelina Collins · Jul 06, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

the people who want ursans nerfed are the same players who abused the skill to the point of boredom, and now want it nerfed so they have a challange or to brag about what they accomplished with the skill, same was with the SF nerf, they used it to get rich and build up ectos, then wanted a nerf to discourage players thus to make their investment grow and ecto prices rise.

How so very selfish of these players. Ursans blessing does not need a nerf, in fact since these players have so much time on there hands to complain, they should use their time to come up with a better build that out shines ursans, too laze I guess like most players who play GW and complain about how bad it has become these days.

I do not use ursans blessing, but the times I had it was fun, I would hate to see it nerfed because of some immature cry babies. Go cry to moma, but leave the game alone.

Sniper22 · Jul 06, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelina Collins

the people who want ursans nerfed are the same players who abused the skill to the point of boredom, and now want it nerfed so they have a challange or to brag about what they accomplished with the skill, same was with the SF nerf, they used it to get rich and build up ectos, then wanted a nerf to discourage players thus to make their investment grow and ecto prices rise.

How so very selfish of these players. Ursans blessing does not need a nerf, in fact since these players have so much time on there hands to complain, they should use their time to come up with a better build that out shines ursans, too laze I guess like most players who play GW and complain about how bad it has become these days.

I do not use ursans blessing, but the times I had it was fun, I would hate to see it nerfed because of some immature cry babies. Go cry to moma, but leave the game alone.

Did you even read the first post? Nothing can "out shine" ursan because ursan is like god mode on steriods... Don't even need a tank to hold aggro - you got 6!

dilan155 · Jul 06, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

its really not all that hard to get r10 in ursun, with book you can get in like 12 hours, or say 3 days of 4 hour playing. im not a ursan lover nor am i a hater.

Cyan Rhae · Jul 06, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

You know, some people have no problem getting Ursan on r10, they simply think the skill is so absurd they refuse to use it.

idicious · Jul 06, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

My advice is find a good guild who does non Ursan elite mission runs. My guild generally runs a few UB's as tanks (depending on area) and also takes a variaty of other builds along. Sometimes we do full UB for the heck of it, or an oldschool run, but usually combines UB's with other builds.

Proff · Jul 06, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Um dude, I'm in a elite pve alliance and all they use is ursan.

Well obviously it's not as "elite" of an alliance as you think it is....

As for the OP, r7 takes about as long as beating eotn in HM and NM, or beating it in NM and doing a couple dungeons, or vanquishing. You don't need r10 and you certainly don't need to grind for a decent rank. Some groups may only accept r10's but they're not the people you want to play with anyway. So stop QQing and just play the game, or join a guild that shares your feelings about ursan.

Navaros · Jul 06, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

PUGs in elite areas always have and always will only welcome cookie cutters builds and cookie cutter classes to participate in the game.

Ursan is now the cookie cutter build. But the good news is, it has eliminated class discrimination and any player from any class is welcome to participate in the game with Ursan. That is great. That is not how it was with any of the cookie cutter builds that were the one and only build PUGs accepted in elite areas before Ursan --- all of which were full of class discrimination that prejudged and exiled any player that was not a member of the few cookie cutter classes.

Therefore, the Ursan switch is a great change, and any shortcomings associated with it are dwarfed by the fact that it finally lets any player from any class have a chance to participate in the game.

idicious · Jul 06, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Or Navaros, you find a decent guild that can actually come up with non cookie cutter builds that are fun and challenging to play well.