Curse

zling · Apr 16, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

if you know how to pre prot very well and can read the battlefield and anticipate the enemies' next move than patient spirit can help more than RoF sometimes. especially vs good teams who know how to wand RoF.
however RoF can be a life saver when patient will be useless. a good shadow stepping spike for example should be hard to read and thus you dont have much time to pre patient it. therefore when you notice it RoF can be the difference between life and death. or at least RoF+something else.

as for arenas, if you run Prot Spirit than RoF is pretty much a must, if you go with Spirit Bond than you can exchange RoF as Spirit Bond should save as your "panic button" anyway, and it's better at it than RoF...

MasterSasori · Apr 16, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

if you go with Spirit Bond than you can exchange RoF as Spirit Bond should save as your "panic button" anyway, and it's better at it than RoF...

Spirit Bond also cost 10 e which will energy rape you in the long run if you use it instead of RoF.

Melody Cross · Apr 17, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Spirit Bond also cost 10 e which will energy rape you in the long run if you use it instead of RoF.

Inaccurate. RoF saves your target for a second or so, allowing you more time to read the situation a little longer and get off another prot--the one you should have cast in the first place.

In that light, RoF is 5 extra energy you shouldn't have used in the first place...but probably did.

By reflex casting RoF, most monks lose more energy than they would if they had cast the right prot in the first place.

GGs

Food · Apr 17, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Patient Spirit compared to optimal RoF use is a joke.

In the long run, RoF is a better heal if you know how to use it well, i.e., covering yourself before someone unloads one you. Also, Paitient Spirit has a 2 second downtime before you get any heal at all, making PS only viable after a preprot or else your target may die within the 2 seconds.

Also, RoF has relief on demand, while Patient Spirit/+Dwayna's takes at least 1 second for optimacy.

On the other hand, Patient Spirit, as Ender said, has more red bars go up reliability, healing for ~108 everytime. The spammability and fast-cast is also a plus, but is overshadowed by the protection potential of RoF. So ultimately, the answer to this thread depends on how experienced the Monk is.

Magikarp · Apr 17, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Inaccurate. RoF saves your target for a second or so, allowing you more time to read the situation a little longer and get off another prot--the one you should have cast in the first place.

In that light, RoF is 5 extra energy you shouldn't have used in the first place...but probably did.

By reflex casting RoF, most monks lose more energy than they would if they had cast the right prot in the first place.

GGs

not at all when you cast RoF correctly. RoF has huge red push-up at optimal use, meaning you wouldnt need any sort of small prot unless they have continuous damage coming in.

Chthon · Apr 17, 2008, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Food

Patient Spirit compared to optimal RoF use is a joke.

In the long run, RoF is a better heal if you know how to use it well,

Now, that's just silly. RoF is tactically more useful than PatS? Sure. Mathematically superior? Not by a longshot. At 14 heal, PatS heals for 114 plus DF. RoF heals for 2 * triggering_hit's_damage + DF. You need 10+ prot -- more than most hybrids run -- just to get the limit high enough to have the possibly of getting 114. Then you'd need every hit that triggered RoF to be at least 57. Every. Hit. Not going to happen. Maybe sometimes. But not always. Hard mode melee foes might hit hard enough to make 57 on every hit a sure bet, but that's about it (and you should be doing something like SY and enfeebling blood to mitigate that 57 down in the first place).

Melody Cross · Apr 17, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

not at all when you cast RoF correctly. RoF has huge red push-up at optimal use, meaning you wouldnt need any sort of small prot unless they have continuous damage coming in.

No. It doesn't. At optimal use with 14 prot, RoF's total negate/heal is 152. Add DF and its 181. And thats the most optimal n/h for RoF in combat conditions. Do that on a WoH bar and you've screwed your ats.

That may seem like a lot to you, but if you put SB on a target first in the same spike situation, you mitigate enough of the damage that nothing more than cleanup is required to get the bar back to full or near full. Indeed, in many spike situations, SB can almost completely mitigate the damage.

Under spike situations a character with less than a third of its health is asking to get re-spiked, pressured, etc. So what do you have to do? You throw your ZB (in our test case) for 199 with DF. Thats 380; barely above 50%. Whats next? Dismiss? I'll give you that (even though I only run ZB draw in competitive play) and a free enchantment so you don't have to blow another 5e on a guardian and pop your target to 480. Now you've got breathing room. But you've already--even with a freebie--spent more than the 10e SB requires to negate most spikes.

And thats the minimum amount to reflex heal through a spike.

More often than not, this is how monks burn themselves out in a match: throwing RoF around instead of properly protting their team. RoF is not-repeat not-a cureall to spike. Its a stopgap.

I'm not picking on you in particular magikarp. This kind of spam is endemic in 4v4 arena play. Monks seem to be "saving" their big prots for the right time. They're so busy saving them that they don't use them when they should. They keep throwing the light prots around until their energy is toast and then they have to weapon swap to their high set to get off anything. Once they're burned out, they die and/or teammates die.

GGs

Magikarp · Apr 17, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

No. It doesn't. At optimal use with 14 prot, RoF's total negate/heal is 152. Add DF and its 181. And thats the most optimal n/h for RoF in combat conditions. Do that on a WoH bar and you've screwed your ats.

That may seem like a lot to you, but if you put SB on a target first in the same spike situation, you mitigate enough of the damage that nothing more than cleanup is required to get the bar back to full or near full. Indeed, in many spike situations, SB can almost completely mitigate the damage.

Under spike situations a character with less than a third of its health is asking to get re-spiked, pressured, etc. So what do you have to do? You throw your ZB (in our test case) for 199 with DF. Thats 380; barely above 50%. Whats next? Dismiss? I'll give you that (even though I only run ZB draw in competitive play) and a free enchantment so you don't have to blow another 5e on a guardian and pop your target to 480. Now you've got breathing room. But you've already--even with a freebie--spent more than the 10e SB requires to negate most spikes.

And thats the minimum amount to reflex heal through a spike.

More often than not, this is how monks burn themselves out in a match: throwing RoF around instead of properly protting their team. RoF is not-repeat not-a cureall to spike. Its a stopgap.

I'm not picking on you in particular magikarp. This kind of spam is endemic in 4v4 arena play. Monks seem to be "saving" their big prots for the right time. They're so busy saving them that they don't use them when they should. They keep throwing the light prots around until their energy is toast and then they have to weapon swap to their high set to get off anything. Once they're burned out, they die and/or teammates die.

GGs

in 4v4 (the subject matter you referred to), a team generally has either a poop load of pressure, or one hell of a spike. the meta right now has a lot of both, meaning...

monk bar compression will only get so good for this situational sort of thing we're conversing about. if you HAD to choose one (and i personally drop a 2nd small prot for BOTH RoF and Patient if im really worried about the set ups we/I could face) i *personally* would choose RoF. im not saying i dont like patient, because i do, but at least hear me out...

1: 1/4 instant relief
2: damage negation, skill/timing based
3: big (instant) push up when paired with good hands on the keyboard
4: capable of gapping spikes to near uselessness
5: danger postponing when you're drained or just generally low on e or on your low set.
6: less weapon swapping (if you stay with 20% ench)

what i love about Patient-

1: fat heal
2: cool delayed style, allowing you to do many things like-
kite
dimiss
kiss
3: capable of healing right through nasty pressure/daze
4: reliability

imo, RoF serves me and my purposes better, faster. im not saying i never play without it, but my bar feels very naked after years of nearly mastering field play+RoF...

just my take

MasterSasori · Apr 19, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Inaccurate. RoF saves your target for a second or so, allowing you more time to read the situation a little longer and get off another prot--the one you should have cast in the first place.

In that light, RoF is 5 extra energy you shouldn't have used in the first place...but probably did.

By reflex casting RoF, most monks lose more energy than they would if they had cast the right prot in the first place.

GGs

I was referring to using Spirit Bond as a "oh shit" prot instead of RoF. If you tried to do that I don't see how your energy won't drop to 0 quickly.

Food · Apr 19, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Now, that's just silly. RoF is tactically more useful than PatS? Sure. Mathematically superior? Not by a longshot.

RoF at 9 prot negates about 60 dmg, then heals for 60 dmg with optimal use. That equals a 120 heal. PatS=110ish heal.

But sure, against a team that knows how to wand RoF, PatS may be the way to go. But RoF's quick, small prot healing power is second to none.

DokkyDok · Apr 20, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

The skils are not used in the same situation, and should not be compared...I, myself, like to use both...
[skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill][skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Patient Spirit[/skill]

Turtle222 · Apr 21, 2008, 02:04 PM // 14:04

different skills, you take patient if you are running a woh/draw/cure hex, and you take rof if you are running a hybrid

AOTT · Apr 21, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Two completely different skills with completely different attributes that do completely different things.

ender6 · Apr 21, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I was referring to using Spirit Bond as a "oh shit" prot instead of RoF. If you tried to do that I don't see how your energy won't drop to 0 quickly.

Yes it would get costly. I think the overall point Melody Cross and possibly Zling were trying to make was that if you use the prots on your skill bar appropiately (hit every pre prot) RoF becomes unnecessary -- because you no longer need a panic button skill -- but no one is that good eh?

As for the debate between Patient Spirit vrs RoF, not to borrow a cliche but, that is like comparing apples to oranges. Monks who feel they can squeak by without RoF and want more Red-Bar-Go-Up (to counter degen) take Patient Spirit. Those that feel RoF is the ANet-Gods' gift to monks won't even consider or comprehend the argument.

Personally, between WoD/Signet of Humility/MageBane Rangers/Daze spikes, my monk bars have been all over the place as of late when it comes to TA. Patient Spirit vrs RoF is the least of my concerns.

Magikarp · Apr 21, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Yes it would get costly. I think the overall point Melody Cross and possibly Zling were trying to make was that if you use the prots on your skill bar appropiately (hit every pre prot) RoF becomes unnecessary -- because you no longer need a panic button skill -- but no one is that good eh?

As for the debate between Patient Spirit vrs RoF, not to borrow a cliche but, that is like comparing apples to oranges. Monks who feel they can squeak by without RoF and want more Red-Bar-Go-Up (to counter degen) take Patient Spirit. Those that feel RoF is the ANet-Gods' gift to monks won't even consider or comprehend the argument.

Personally, between WoD/Signet of Humility/MageBane Rangers/Daze spikes, my monk bars have been all over the place as of late when it comes to TA. Patient Spirit vrs RoF is the least of my concerns.

amen brother, amen lol.

Th Fooster · Apr 21, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

ok the cover enchant excuse for patient spirit fails. here are some better options if all you want is a cover. watchful healing or dwaynas sorrow.
those two skills are stricylt made as cover enchants. in pvp players use skills that strip all enchants. so cover enchanting is a waste of enrgy

I find patien spirit useful in my AB bar which is a melandrus resillionace boon prot. it comes in handy for KD.. and yes quite ofter you can see KD coming a mile away. esp when a warrior comes running at you with a great big hammer in his hands. Rof is the o shit button as someone meltioned before

the two skills were made with two completley different purpose in mind. patient spirit is good for runners sometimes too if you pre cast it jsut before you enter range of danger

But on ym boon prot bar.. its an instant 90 or so heal.. and another 90 2 seconds later. not bad for 7 energy and rof is the o shit im dazed button.

now as for dwaynas sorrow.. its an exelent cover enchant as it spreads to all ajacent for 5 energy. but in pvp it fails since spikes will strip all enchants.
ths why watchful healing is semi useful because it can prime the spike if stripped. What i mean by prime the spike is.. join thier spike with your own heal at exactly the time stripped. but again.. not really efficient because a monks bar needs other things. we uese infusers to deal with spikes.

Snow Bunny · Apr 21, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOTT

Two completely different skills with completely different attributes that do completely different things.

Eh, don't simplify it. Quick recharges, quick casts, 5e cost, comparable healing.

If you think about it, RoF @ 11Prot (my spec as a PvE WoH monk) will prevent 63 damage and then heal for that. So, used at maximum potential, it's a 126 heal. Assuming the blow is for 140, you'll still take 14 damage. If you only take 50, you're only getting 100 heal. So, you really need to be aware of what's going on. RoF is very useful for giving yourself the breathing space required to WoH someone.

Patient Spirit is a full out heal that from my experience, functions very similarly. Because of the 2-second wait-time, it doesn't have the immediacy RoF provides. It heals at 14 healing spec (again, my PvE WoH build) for 114, 12 less. it also has another second tacked on the recharge.

The decision at this point might seem easy, as RoF in pure numbers wins out, but the choice is not so easy. If you're dying to mass degen (PvE mobs like to throw fire, hexes, disease, and throw cripple/deep wound on top for extra pleasure) you'll find that RoF will provde you with a paltry 29 heal (9 spec for DF). You can of course throw this on an ally, then Dismiss Condition them for another 59. If RoF prevents and heals for its full 63, you're getting a good deal, but if it gets used up by wanding, you're getting very little for your 5e.

Running Patient Spirit will allow you to power through that with 114 heals, allowing you to alternate. You'll get the maximum amount of heal, ceterus paribus, instead of hoping that your RoF heals for a lot.

However, I find that RoF wins out. In PvE enemy mobs will unexpectedly spike you - I find that rangers, notably Tengu and Kornans, do this a lot. Thus, when they all Crossfire your Olias, throwing a RoF with your finger mashing WoH will (unless you're really quite bad) catch it. Patient Spirit will be wasted, it healing your ally's corpse, and your WoH will end up healing you instead, putting it on recharge for those Kournan archers to Precision Shot [Insert Party Member Here] to death.

A long post I know, but having monked quite a bit, and experimenting with pretty much the whole monk skill list (excluding smiting

) I wanted the greatest efficiency possible for my HM playtime, especially on Vanquishes.

credit · May 10, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Patient and dismiss.

MasterSasori · May 11, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

After fiddling it around for a while, I find [patient spirit] more useful than in AB. The red bars go up effect is just too good to pass. There are also no spikes in AB to really worry about but there will be constant damage from every direction you can think of.

XDeadboltX · May 11, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

After fiddling it around for a while, I find [patient spirit] more useful than in AB. The red bars go up effect is just too good to pass. There are also no spikes in AB to really worry about but there will be constant damage from every direction you can think of.

I found this in RA too. Gives me room to bring hex removal in AB too since i normally run dash and return