Curse

Magikarp · Apr 14, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Sums it up pretty well. Hybrids in 4v4 don't have the bar space for dkiss, or a second heal skill at all. RoF ends up being a crappy red bars spell in more matches than I care to count, thanks to magebane, diversion, dshot, migraine, daze, signet of humility, knockdowns..... Unless you have moko's uninterruptable ZB, patient is a lifesaver.

i agree 100% they're different skills, but please dont make totally uneducated statements like this.

RoF when used correctly is a perfect heal/migitator, and daze healer. its fantastic at cutting a spike into next to nothing, and when paired with a force or fat heal, is enough to keep any red bar at full (if you're playing well).

patient is a totally different beast. enchant, allowing many synergies, its a fat heal, and fast in both cast and recharge. it wont help you at all if you dont preprot it, and isnt realiable at all in a spike situation.

the main reason people like patient, is its panic capabilities. bad players call rof a panic button, whereas anyone who plays a half decent monk knows otherwise. its patient, being spammed when dazed, or about to be kd'ed that looks silly. its best used on a condition stacked deep wounded target, because its heal is unaffected by dw. its also best used when you're casting it as a pusher when the team has mixed statuses, to keep the team at full red.

spamming any skill=bad playing, so patient is no different. while rof and patient are two totally different skills, i still feel that rof reigns superior in most high end pvp, and even low end arenas though, due to the amount of drop of a hat spikes nowadays.

also.. please drop the " i love patient+dismiss or dwanyas" thing. if you need to waste 10e for that nonsense.. ouch. (unless you mean no one ever has enchantments on your team.. in which.. you might want to rethink your team layout/skill synergy...) dismiss alone is enough heal if you're doing your job..

Dr Strangelove · Apr 14, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i agree 100% they're different skills, but please dont make totally uneducated statements like this.

RoF when used correctly is a perfect heal/migitator, and daze healer. its fantastic at cutting a spike into next to nothing, and when paired with a force or fat heal, is enough to keep any red bar at full (if you're playing well).

The standard 4v4 monk builds only have one direct heal, their elite. If that elite goes down, you have no way to push red bars back up, you can only break even. If your WoH gets diverted, you end up spamming RoF, because nothing else on your bar will keep someone alive (except perhaps spamming dismiss on an enchanted target, which also has issues. Patient means you suck a little more against spikes, but your bar is more resilient against pressure.

In an ideal situation, you'd use WoH every time. In reality, WoH is going to go down, and red bars go up is too valuable a function to not have any redundancy built into your bar. As a daze healer, there shouldn't be any question patient is better, since it heals for 100something every time, while RoF could heal for the equivalent of 160, or it could heal for the equivalent of 20.

Melody Cross · Apr 14, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

the main reason people like patient, is its panic capabilities. bad players call rof a panic button, whereas anyone who plays a half decent monk knows otherwise. its patient, being spammed when dazed, or about to be kd'ed that looks silly. its best used on a condition stacked deep wounded target, because its heal is unaffected by dw. its also best used when you're casting it as a pusher when the team has mixed statuses, to keep the team at full red.

As a panic button heal, Patient Spirit is less than mediocre. In the two seconds it takes to activate its heal, any panic cast of patient will only get you a dead ally. Suggesting it is used in such a manner says 1 thing magicarp:

respectfully, you either never have used it or don't know how to.

If you are bunking your prots against a spike, patient won't save anything.

Also, Patient Spirit is not immune to deep wound. Check recent skill balances for further information on the subject.

GGs

RavagerOfDreams · Apr 14, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

not in a million years could PS outdo RoF

but yesitsrob is completely right they are two entirely different skills

PS is a great secondary heal when your elite is distracted and works great on ZB bars to get big heals in without having to worry about your energy if the targets above 50% health

RoF > Spikes

Magikarp · Apr 14, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

As a panic button heal, Patient Spirit is less than mediocre. In the two seconds it takes to activate its heal, any panic cast of patient will only get you a dead ally. Suggesting it is used in such a manner says 1 thing magicarp:

respectfully, you either never have used it or don't know how to.

If you are bunking your prots against a spike, patient won't save anything.

Also, Patient Spirit is not immune to deep wound. Check recent skill balances for further information on the subject.

GGs

less than mediocre if you're playing it well i suppose. but the meta right now calls out all the scrub monks from their caves, spamming pat like its the only skill they have, making its reputation less than.. meh.

i may have missed the update on it not bypassing dw, but all that does, is make me like it less.

also, the meta is, and has been time lapse, or active spikes, which pat does nothing for, and if you're the lone monk out there, i feel for you in those situations if you left a small passive prot for a fat delayed heal.

someone also mentioned that the average bar only packs one main heal...
this entire argument is moot if you know how to play dismiss and rof well, seeing as many zb bars rarely need that slam heal zb offers if they monk well.

and as a final note..

playing almost any bar, im not going to feel like swapping my weapon sets from +30hp to 20% ench back and forth, just for one skill (pat), so i can have it go off faster. a 3 second delay is a bit much to wait for when you're really in a pinch, and thats where rof would outdo the skill tenfold. (imo. i understand why you all like pat, im just saying why i would choose rof over it).

MasterSasori · Apr 14, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Isn't there another thread that covers this?

The only important similarity between RoF and Patient is that they are difficult to interrupt. These shouldn't be compared IMO.

fainty · Apr 14, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I have played both with RoF and with Patient Spirit, they both have their flavor and use them both around.

In GvG i use Pat Spirit if i play WoH/infuse but will use RoF with the prot builds.
If i'm only monk or have 10+ prot i use RoF above patient spirit.

Against pressure you would like patient spirit more then RoF, however if they are more spike based RoF comes out on the upper hand. But in some area's you don't know what you face and a quick cast heal (even with delay) will get you further then a quick cast small prot what triggers for low or doesn't trigger at all. For GvG and HA (and 8 party pve) where you have 2 monks you can have 1 on each, RoF on prot and patient on heal.

Magikarp · Apr 14, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by fainty

I have played both with RoF and with Patient Spirit, they both have their flavor and use them both around.

In GvG i use Pat Spirit if i play WoH/infuse but will use RoF with the prot builds.
If i'm only monk or have 10+ prot i use RoF above patient spirit.

Against pressure you would like patient spirit more then RoF, however if they are more spike based RoF comes out on the upper hand. But in some area's you don't know what you face and a quick cast heal (even with delay) will get you further then a quick cast small prot what triggers for low or doesn't trigger at all. For GvG and HA (and 8 party pve) where you have 2 monks you can have 1 on each, RoF on prot and patient on heal.

tbh, i think the thread ends here. extremely well put, and agreeable in every way.

Grammar · Apr 14, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The only important similarity between RoF and Patient is that they are difficult to interrupt. These shouldn't be compared IMO.

They're not being compared because they're functionally similar. They're being compared because they're competing for the same slot on your bar.

Personally, I've played around with Patient Spirit and I'm still not a fan. I'd rather take RoF in PvP and Kiss in PvE with that slot.
Admittedly I haven't used it enough to get really good at it, so maybe that's the problem. Or maybe I'm just too dependent on RoF for my own good. In any case, that damn 2 second delay and the loss of RoF just kills it for me.

I'm guess I'm just not leet enough to rock teh Patient.

Yichi · Apr 14, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

about this whole debate:

Short answer = no.

Long answer = not a chance.

Magikarp · Apr 15, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

about this whole debate:

Short answer = no.

Long answer = not a chance.

no offense, but i dont really know what you mean by this. are you simply referencing the op's "patient>rof" statement? or something else?

Alex Morningstar · Apr 15, 2008, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Patient Spirit is good if you are patient.

.

..

Sorry.

Yichi · Apr 15, 2008, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

no offense, but i dont really know what you mean by this. are you simply referencing the op's "patient>rof" statement? or something else?

all of the above as 3/4 of the information that has been posted between the 2 skills has been complete bullshit. You can't really compare a straight out heal, to a negation of damage. They are 2 different things that have 2 different effects and outcomes depending on the situation.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 15, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

all of the above as 3/4 of the information that has been posted between the 2 skills has been complete bullshit. You can't really compare a straight out heal, to a negation of damage. They are 2 different things that have 2 different effects and outcomes depending on the situation.

They're competing for the same slot, so it becomes a necessity. To sum up:

RoF is vastly more flexible, and handy for spikes. When you're in trouble you can use it as a poor man's daze/migraine/dshot heal, but it's not great.

Patient Spirit is only a daze/migraine/dshot heal, but it's a hell of a lot better at it.

Yichi · Apr 15, 2008, 05:44 AM // 05:44

The problem is they are competing for the same slot in 2 different builds, so no you can't really accurately compare the two.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 15, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

[word of healing][patient spirit][dismiss condition][guardian][spirit bond][holy veil][shielding hands][return]

Is roughly the standard TA monk. Sometimes the elite changes to ZB, sometimes shielding hands is dropped for [divine spirit], sometimes return is a different defensive skill, like [disciplined stance].

I'll give you that patient is utter shit for an 8v8 monk, because monk shutdown isn't quite as focused, and taking out WoH on an 8v8 monk doesn't instantly win the match.

Magikarp · Apr 15, 2008, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

The problem is they are competing for the same slot in 2 different builds, so no you can't really accurately compare the two.

actually... for the most part, yeah, they pretty much are the two disputable skills in that slot, so as far as versatility, thats where the question lies.

Div · Apr 15, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Conclusion:

1) The two skills are fighting for the same spot on a monk's bar
2) The two skills are completely different in usage and can't be compared

so...

3) It depends on what is in the rest of your bar, and what the focus of your monk is.

MasterSasori · Apr 15, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

They're not being compared because they're functionally similar. They're being compared because they're competing for the same slot on your bar.

They're not similar so a monk doing spike prot won't be using Patient and one that predominately heals isn't going to use RoF over Patient.

This isnt as much competing for the same spot of the bar as choosing what your monk is supposed to do.

horseradish · Apr 15, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Conclusion:

1) The two skills are fighting for the same spot on a monk's bar
2) The two skills are completely different in usage and can't be compared

so...

3) It depends on what is in the rest of your bar, and what the focus of your monk is.

QFT!

Div wins thread