Curse

Kiluna · Apr 16, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

The very worst skill ever, or the very best?

In my eyes, it's interesting skill and DO have it uses. As a e-managment skill it's not maybe the best out there. Since it eats Elite slot. But is it actually that bad as e-managment?

Little comparison between some of the e-managment skills:

Versus Power Drain in 1 minute (3 PD uses):
Power Drain (3 Insp): 21 Energy, 15 cost, 6 gained.
Power Drain (4 Insp): 27 Energy, 15 cost, 12 gained.
Power Drain (5 Insp): 33 Energy, 15 cost, 18 gained.
Peace and Harmony: 20 Energy, 5 Cost. 15 gained.

However, PD requires you to interrupt spells (time used to not heal your party). For heros it's no problem.

Versus Glyph of Lesser Energy in 1 minute (2 GoLE uses, 4 spells):
Glyph of Lesser Energy: 40 Energy, 10 cost, 30 gained. 10+ energy skills used only.
Glyph of Lesser Energy: 40 Energy, 10 cost, 10 gained. 5 energy skills used only.
Glyph of Lesser Energy: 40 Energy, 10 cost, 20 gained. 2 of each used
Peace and Harmony: 20 Energy, 5 Cost. 15 gained.

First GoLE looked like 2 times as good as P&H, but then again if you take a look at how much you actually gain if your bar have mainly 5e skills or you for some reason have to use those low energy skills instead of high ones, it isn't actually that good anymore.

So with those 3 skills (sure there are others that might be even better, at least for player itself) we have results of:

- Power Drain wins after 5 or higher Inspiration, though you have to interrupt a spell to get the energy.

- GoLE wins if you use minium of one 10+ energy spell for each GoLE. Only bad thing i can come up with it is that you are unable to heal party for that 1 sec you use it.

- Peace and Harmony have it uses in my opinion. The bad part about it is, it eats your elite slot. But well, for example you can use it to maintain 1 enchantment and still have normal regeneration. You could for example use it with Divine Boon on 5e bar, or you could use it with Blessed Aura on heavy prot (enchantment) bar.
A bonder monk could use it to allow maintain that 1 extra bond without going in degen.
A healer monk could fit Live Vicariously in their bar and maintain that thing on things like sins to give them more survivalibility (spelling?), given their high attack rate.
Smiter could use Strength of Honor on 1 of the, or 2 melees in group and still have 3 pips regen.
Balthazar's Spirit on yourself when you know there is aoe and you'll be hit with it, no matter what.
Essence Bond could be used on target that will get hit (low AL frontliner).
And ofcourse you can always support one of your other healers / spirit spammer / trappers w/e with the extra pip.

So well, i would say it definately have its uses and could be worth of the elite slot in some situations. At least worth more credit than people give to it. Though, i'm comparing an elite skill to other skills that aren't elite and win against the elite (with required conditions), so yes i agree little with people that say it might be little weak to be elite. But like i already sayd, not weak enough to not use it ever.

Ps. I have no idea why i made thread like this, since nobody is probably interested about the skill, or anything behind it. /slapself

I hope it aint too hard to read, since i fail at fluent english. Also remember, apart from the comparing, most of the stuff are my personal opinios, you are free to have different opinions, but please at least don't start flame war with "no...u" posts. At least not without any reasonings why you think that way.

phan · Apr 16, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Using it as cover ench ftw =)

Nice guide / comparison kiluna

Dr Strangelove · Apr 16, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

You're comparing an elite skill to a couple non-elite skills. It should give you a hint when P&H is vastly outdone by two non-elite skills with very little or no spec.

Kwan Xi · Apr 16, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Smiters don't benefit from Peace and Harmony, if you use any skill that targets a foe P&H will cancel out. Smiter's Boon Monks are an exception I think unless smite condition/hex cancels it out too.

The only thing I ever used P&H for was back when Prophecies was the only GW out and used it only for a Divine Boon/Protect monk. But its kind of a slow/weak way to maintain energy, while other skills like these
[skill]Mantra of Recall[/skill] [skill]Offering of Blood[/skill] [skill]Ether Signet[/skill]
were more of an instant energy gain, and GoLE was kind of a way to bypass the energy altogether.

Not only that but you also if you really do need the extra energy regen you could always take a Battery Necro who can bring [skill]Blood Ritual[/skill] or [skill]Blood is Power[/skill] and give a lot more energy then P&H can.

The only use I see with Peace and Harmony right now is that you can use it on Other Monks, Ritualists or maybe Ranger Trappers as a easy way to maintain an extra pip of energy thats about it. There are lots of ways to manage energy in the game that I think P&H has just fallen completely out of favor with monks (assuming people actually used it in the first place).

MasterSasori · Apr 16, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Very nice comparison, but GoLE is still better because its non-elite and there are far better Monk elites out there.

Kiluna · Apr 16, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

You're comparing an elite skill to a couple non-elite skills. It should give you a hint when P&H is vastly outdone by two non-elite skills with very little or no spec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

Though, i'm comparing an elite skill to other skills that aren't elite and they win against the elite (with required conditions), so yes i agree little with people that say it might be little weak to be elite.

And i wouldn't say vastly... really, GoLE wins only in terms of energy gain if you use 1 or 2 10e+ spells (so no use in 5e bar, though you shouldn't have problems with only 5e skills, then again we have heros who aren't that good at managin energy). And it requires Ele secondary.

Power Drain requires minium of 5 inspiration points and a Mesmer secondary and you have to be able to interrupt a spell with it.

With P&H you are free to choose secondary for other possiple skills and got the free points from possiple secondary attribute for monk attributes or for the free'd secondary slot.

So in the end i would say it's +/- 0. You pay elite slot but free up secondary slot and attribute points from it. Only req P&H haves it that you don't damage/cast stuff on enemy (not hard to met), other e-managment skills have reqs like interrupting spell, having high enough attribute points to be more effective, use high enough energy spells and so on. And some of them can be harder to be met in some cases.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

[skill]Mantra of Recall[/skill]

Inspiration 4: 42 Energy, Cost 30, 12 gain.
Inspiration 5: 45 Energy, Cost 30, 15 gain.
Inspiration 6: 48 Energy, Cost 30, 18 gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

[skill]Offering of Blood[/skill]

Blood Magic 0: 32 Energy, Cost 4, 28 gain.
Blood Magic 11: 17 Energy: Cost 1, 16 gain. 1 cast only per minute

On first one (with 4 casts that you can in 1 min) it can be questioned if the gain is even less since someone have to use energy to heal up your sacrifice. Second one with only 1 cast requires really high Blood Magic in order ot beat P&H (if cast only once per minute)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

[skill]Ether Signet[/skill]

Inspiration 9: 16 Energy, Cost 0, 16 gain.

Well i guess it's personal preference how much people are ready to spend attributes on secondary/attribute line that only offers you e-managment. Note: the 3 above are over 1 minute, so yes, if you need that energy instantly other skills are indeed (alot) better in terms of that, but extra pip lessens the risk that you run in situation where you have to get that energy NOW!

Just one thing people, i want to make my point clear on this thing (to avoid as much as possiple all the flaming :P):
I'm not trying to say this thing is best thing out there. I'm trying just to say that this thing deserves more credit than people give to it currently.

And like i sayd in my Ps.; I know this thread might be little useless, but i felt like making up little discussion about it.

Kwan Xi · Apr 16, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

I'm not saying Peace and Harmony is a bad skill, but its not that great either.

In PvP your gonna need a more useful elite, and Peace and Harmony is kind of a dead weight elite if you consider Ether Signet, GoLE, and other non elite energy skills can do a comparable or better job then P&H. Allowing you room to take another elite, like WoH.

In PvE I only see P&H useful for giving other monks extra energy regen, but then again a Battery Necro can do the same job better.

Boon/Prot maybe? but you could do better with other energy choices too as mentioned above.

So yeah.... P&H I don't know if the skill has a niche in the game anymore with all the choices you have out there.

Edit: Fix P&H by adding extra energy regen, and lowering the enchantment time? maybe that could make it more useful? I don't know but I get the feeling the skill would have to be modified somehow to see some use once again.

C2K · Apr 16, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Peace and Harmony is a skill that shouldn't be elite, but it is elite because if it wasn't it would be on every bar. If the energy regen was scaleable(1..3), it might actually be decent for pve.

Kiluna · Apr 16, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Yes, scalable regen on it would make it better. Maybe something like:

For 20...55 seconds, target ally gains +1...2 energy regeneration. Spells cast by that ally cost 0...2 less energy. Peace and Harmony ends if that ally casts a spell that targets a foe or deals damage to a foe.

at 0 divine, you wouldn't get the reduce on energy cost and only 1 energy regen. at ~9 divine you get 2 regen (maxed) and 1 less energy cost on spells, 2 less energy (maxed) at 12 or 14. Also the duration on that one is little lower than on the original.

Though not sure would that be overpowered in PvP since you could cast it on other monks too, maybe keep the 1 pip energy and make secondary effect that lowers spell cost only to scale, 0 at 0 divine Edit: <snip> right, R/N/Mo would be funny class to play

Melody Cross · Apr 16, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Short Answer: bad

Long Answer: PnH had a place on monk bars when boonprots were still a solid choice for play, but there were better choices at the time. As the game progressed, new elites were introduced and old ones were buffed to make them effective in PvP environments.

As an energy manager, PnH can easily exceed others in effectiveness. Its conditional, however, on a 3-monk backline (and maintaining it on all three monks) to give such energy returns. This can give advantages to teams, particularly from a GvG perspective. 3 monks with an extra pip of energy can allow the backline to withstand exceptional pressure from the other team, increase pressure to the other side, etc. Adding its long uptime allows the PnH monk to run flags and still remain a force at the stand. Imagine a WoH monk with 5 pips. Your RC. Improving their effectiveness while you are away from the stand allows your team to push longer, forces the other teams support flagger to stay at stand to compensate for these two super monks, thus allowing an increased potential for boosts.

Thats the theory anyway. In that light, its easy to see why some might choose one for a runner build. Biggest problem there is: where do you put your party heal now that LoD is dead and buried?

The problem with the skill is, quite simply, that there are better options. Monk elites do more than they used to. Any energy manager--even on the once mighty boonprot--is not as effective as these powerful heal/prots at mitigating damage and healing.

It also endorses sloppy monking. Spamming your prots because you can was a complaint about boon prots in GWP. Prot Spirit can easily reach elite status for its effect...if a monk can keep it on several targets for long periods of time. This is why OoB was nerfed originally, as well as much of the inspiration line.

By the time they nerfed Divine Boon, monk elites and skills had reached an effective level that energy managment was no longer needed. It took less energy to keep people alive with monk elites (heal and prot, or the BLight builds from GWF). It was an anti-climactic nerf that left most players wondering why Izzy even did it in the first place.

What all this boils down to is: monks do not use energy managers to manage their energy. They use prot. Hitting the right target at the right time--efficiently using your skills as they are required--is better than any energy manager in the game, elite or otherwise.

GGs

Div · Apr 17, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

When you compare PnH to GoLE and find they're of equal effectiveness, that's a problem.

Just as you should expect a problem if you compare WoH with orison and find they have the same effectiveness.

JoeKnowMo · Apr 17, 2008, 02:35 AM // 02:35

I agree with Kwan that if you need the extra energy just slap [blood ritual] on a necro hero or take a blood necro hench.

If you absolutely need the consistent +1 pip of energy, put [Succor] on a Paragon or Necro hero. It requires no attribute point investment, is not elite, and those classes have built-in e-mgmt and should have no problem maintaining it on you.

Non-elite [[GoLE] does better than [[peace and harmony]. And non-elite [[succor] does just as well. Save your elite slot for something more useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

muwahahahaha!!!!
you all said i was crazy to be using elite emanagment!!! But now you are all WRONG!!!!!!

NO U!

Age · Apr 17, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

It is good on heros that is what I use it for although for e-man. I use foci swapping as I am not always /E or /Mes.I find the ether signet quite nice if not using gole and at 0 energy.I doubt we will see blood battery Necros agian unless it is in HM or elite areas.

MasterSasori · Apr 19, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It is good on heros that is what I use it for although for e-man. I use foci swapping as I am not always /E or /Mes.I find the ether signet quite nice if not using gole and at 0 energy.I doubt we will see blood battery Necros agian unless it is in HM or elite areas.

Just please don't use P&H for any reason - it's terrible. If you need energy, play a N/any class or pack a decent non-elite emanagement skill.

You Look Grim · Apr 19, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

i agree with the others. PNH uses up an elite spot so comes in second to the other skills imo

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 19, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

I think when ANet designed [skill]peace and harmony[/skill], they intended [skill]divine boon[/skill] healers/protectors to use it to offset the-1 energy regen. I have to admit, I tried it quite a bit to see if I could make it work, but never could. Way too many disenchants for this skill to be usable. I haven't had any problems with energy magement, WoH is the best energy management tool I've found so far for a Monk.

Avarre · Apr 19, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Even if PnH gave better energy than GoLE it would still be worse because you don't get any energy on demand. GoLE can give you energy when you need it, and allows you to hide energy, whereas PnH isn't going to help if you need a burst of energy suddenly.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 19, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

If it lasts 30 seconds with no DF it does seems like you could stick it on a paragon with Succor and give both your monks +2 pips for a bit while it uses adrenaline based shouts to get energy and further buff the party... Might not do for high end gvg/ha but could do for HM.

Tyla · Apr 19, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

But then you'd be better off running BiP.
Cheaper, no recharge.

Even then it's a waste.

Age · Apr 19, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Just please don't use P&H for any reason - it's terrible. If you need energy, play a N/any class or pack a decent non-elite emanagement skill.

I said I only use on heros as they can't focus swap and I can and this beig the Monk forum what would going N/any do anything unless a blood Necro bring PiB or Well of Power.

I don't use Peace and Harmony in fact it was my Mesmer who capped it not my Monk.