Curse

Stormlord Alex · Apr 26, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

... silly waffling... People in RA, AB ect may suck, but IW will kill them more often then not.

So does a mending/HH wammo. I've got glad points to prove it.
Bad opposition doesn't make a bad character good. A shockaxe or comparable melee will do all the IW does except much better.

AOTT · Apr 26, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

IW is Bizarro-world and I did a ton of research on it a while ago (er, basically the outcome was "no, you can't use a ritualist Weapon Spell with it") so I guess I only have 3 things to say, really...
-Tiger Stance does not end when you use IW. because you cannot miss.
-Flurry dos not reduce the damage from IW. It is better than TS because it is infinitely cycle-able.
-Cyclone Axe works with IW.

Avarre · Apr 26, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Maybe I'm missusing the term, what I mean is when warriors/sins/dervii are chasing your soft backline allies, overextended from their monks, in frenzy or what not, these targets are prime candidates for you to destroy with IW. Once these are dead, all you need do is suppress res, and destroy their soft targets at your leisure.

The objective of warrior pressure is to deal as much damage as possible to the other team. Chasing a fleeing 60AL target deals no damage. Turning to face a 60AL target that for some reason is chasing a warrior rather than kiting it, and unloading on it with skills that deal real damage, now that deals damage.

Not taking into account that 42 damage per attack is about the sum total of 2-3 people wanding, which means you make your entire skillbar suck so you can replicate the wand hits of others on your team.

Or that as soon as IW is noticed, you will never be able to cast it again. You have to have it up to do anything, which means as soon as it goes down and recharges it will be recast, and every ranger or mesmer with a clue will be waiting so intently for that moment they'll interrupt it 4 times with their monitors turned off.

It's an interesting skill in PvE to mess around with, but it's extremely sub-par. I did win a GvG by soloing the enemy Guild Hall using an old scythe mesmer SB build during a ladder lock, but really, that's not what you should be basing skill quality on.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 26, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

So does a mending/HH wammo. I've got glad points to prove it.
Bad opposition doesn't make a bad character good. A shockaxe or comparable melee will do all the IW does except much better.

And my IW has killed shock axes and HH/mending wammos and has a few glad points to prove it

(not many though as I abandoned RA for FA/AB before the glad system was put in place, only came back recently and IW still works...)

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Chasing a fleeing 60AL target deals no damage. Turning to face a 60AL target that for some reason is chasing a warrior rather than kiting it, and unloading on it with skills that deal real damage, now that deals damage.

That's what they do though, run up on me, or the other 'softies' realize I'm killing them, try and unload(usually frenzied) and kill me but can't because of dark escape, illusion of weakness feigned neutrality or some combination thereof try and run, get snared, try and heal sig, get interrupted/KD'd or noticed by my party and die, start swearing me out and rage quit. It's funny as hell.

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Not taking into account that 42 damage per attack is about the sum total of 2-3 people wanding....

So IW hits as hard as 3 people attacking, but on 1 character and it's unblock-able, undodge-able and can't miss? That sounds pretty good actually(must be why it's an elite).... especially in an arena with 4 people max... And again, IW ain't my only skill, you can get lots of other fun tricks in there.

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Or that as soon as IW is noticed, you will never be able to cast it again...

Who says I'm going to stand next to a mage bane or enemy mes and get it interrupted

and who says I'm not going to cast it in a weapons set that gives +20% with all the HSR chances I can get. Worst case scenario, I still got a bag full of snares, hexes, a KD and such to play with for 25 seconds or so and I'm still a hard target with shadow arts. I can also start shooting chaos spitwads at people if I have to.

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It's an interesting skill in PvE to mess around with...

....AND the 'lighter' arenas(page 1, scroll down and read it people). It's rule breaking consistent melee damage in a 4v4 area that typically tries to counter another type of melee, and can only be really stopped by a bar dedicated to mass shattering or very, very strong caster lock down or punishing misses or 'actions' in general(and in these areas most of that attention will be on healers, so called 'real' melee threats eles and the like). Like I said at the start of this mess, it's not top 100 gvg/halls meta, but it is a very, very strong skill in the arenas, AB and such.

Stormlord Alex · Apr 26, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

but it is a very, very strong skill in the arenas, AB and such.

No, it isn't 'strong' at all - it's a passable gimmick elite that only works because the opposition is bad.

That is all.

Avarre · Apr 26, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

So IW hits as hard as 3 people attacking, but on 1 character and it's unblock-able, undodge-able and can't miss? That sounds pretty good actually(must be why it's an elite).... especially in an arena with 4 people max... And again, IW ain't my only skill, you can get lots of other fun tricks in there.

It does as much damage as three casters with no skills on their bar. That sounds absolutely awful - even moreso when you take into account the skills on those bars that make people die. Your 'other tricks' are limited largely to the illusion line, which is pretty much entirely awful with the exception of a few builds that rely on their elites.

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Who says I'm going to stand next to a mage bane or enemy mes and get it interrupted

and who says I'm not going to cast it in a weapons set that gives +20% with all the HSR chances I can get. Worst case scenario, I still got a bag full of snares, hexes, a KD and such to play with for 25 seconds or so and I'm still a hard target with shadow arts. I can also start shooting chaos spitwads at people if I have to.

I thought we were discussing real situations. You will be monitored by other players with interrupts and when it goes down and they see you moving back, it is incredibly obvious why. You will be kept in range. If, for some reason a player misses the interrupt, enchant strips will be timed to land before your cover does.

Worst case scenario, you become a crappy illusion mesmer with no elite and only half a proper skillbar since you have to pack so much self-preservation, and are hence ignored by the opposition since you have no actual value to your team and pose no threat, until your have IW up again (and yes, good players do keep track of the recharges on key enemy skills).

Which of course doesn't take into account the fact that if you get snared for whatever reason, you become useless. Unless you have monk backup, but to make the comparison fair, then your target would have to have that too - and at that point IW becomes useless again.

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....AND the 'lighter' arenas(page 1, scroll down and read it people). It's rule breaking consistent melee damage in a 4v4 area that typically tries to counter another type of melee, and can only be really stopped by a bar dedicated to mass shattering or very, very strong caster lock down or punishing misses or 'actions' in general(and in these areas most of that attention will be on healers, so called 'real' melee threats eles and the like). Like I said at the start of this mess, it's not top 100 gvg/halls meta, but it is a very, very strong skill in the arenas, AB and such.

It wouldn't be a threat in gvg or halls of any level. Even in AB and RA it's of dubious value. It's a joke in those areas and only succeeds due to poor players or the fact that such areas have no concept of team play. RA results are not valuable in determining whether something works.

Tyla · Apr 26, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

My AL when I run a 'squishy is usually in the 70-78 area, most make use of armor sets when confronted by a warrior.

That's what MOST Warriors do if they know anything about pressure.
Why do you think shield sets are used so much in PvP?

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I can use skills just fine, just because I put up IW doesn't mean the rest of my skillbar gets blacked out(though I can do that if I want), and I can even get Deep Wound on there if I have to.

When I say deep wound, I mean reliable deep wound.
And yeah, Blackout isn't used much anymore, and Disarm was used on linebackers to screw up adrenaline (I think).

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My favorite flavor of IW, the Me/A has reliable DW,(if I want it,
DW is more a tool for spiking something dead, IW is about constant pressure) plenty of KDs to choose from, plenty of snares, AL equal to or greater then a warrior on demand, a run buff that can half it's damage WHILE it's attacking, and a lot of good defensive maneuvers and lots of cover enchants. Plenty of tactical options and strategies available, it's hardly a sacrifice or a waste of a slot if it's in your plan from the start. Just make your contingency plans, set a build and go for it.

Yet a Warrior gets this for free. And you're still sacrificing your elite slot on a enchantment to deal any damage at all.

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have you been reading my posts at all? That's what I've been saying from the start. In a GvG or HA build you'd have plenty of tools to counter an IW, in the smaller arenas it's different. Unless your foes come prepared to mass shatter and/or punish IW's specific type of melee(faintheart, price, SS or SV type things are the main theats) then odds are in favor of it being able to destroy most opposition, or at least put up a good fight.

Smaller arenas meaning RA and AB? Players there are bad.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 26, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

You will be monitored by other players with interrupts and when it goes down and they see you moving back, it is incredibly obvious why.You will be kept in range. If, for some reason a player misses the interrupt, enchant strips will be timed to land before your cover does.

Worst case scenario, you become a crappy illusion mesmer with no elite and only half a proper skillbar since you have to pack so much self-preservation, and are hence ignored by the opposition since you have no actual value to your team and pose no threat, until your have IW up again (and yes, good players do keep track of the recharges on key enemy skills).

Right... so instead of siting on something else like a healer type or an ele or something, an interrupter type is going to chase me all over the map(and me with my own snares and run skills to get away from them) ignoring the rest of the fight waiting for me to cast a so called 'joke' skill that apparently no-one considers a threat.... Better players keep track of interrupting types and know how to keep the enemy from stopping their key skills from getting though/disabled. In these situations IW gets really fun.

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Smaller arenas meaning RA and AB? Players there are bad.

It's a joke in those areas and only succeeds due to poor players or the fact that such areas have no concept of team play. RA results are not valuable in determining whether something works.

No, it isn't 'strong' at all - it's a passable gimmick elite that only works because the opposition is bad.

But it does in FACT work in the small arenas(extremely well vs most common defenses in these areas), destroys bad players and good players alike. 20+ win streaks from RA to TA with my old IW... biiiiiig freaking joke, hahahaha LOL

... all this faction tickles.....

GW is a big game, different stuff works in different areas, IW works extremely well in the smaller arenas, along with lots of other stuff that wouldn't work anywhere else. Deal with it, noone is going to convince me that it's not effective, fun, or a viable tactic in lower levels of pvp(even if some of the other players there suck, and not as many of them do as yall are advertising)... I've seen the results firsthand, and stomped on people using cookie cutter stuff ripped from obs or pvx or another build archive who 'laugh' at the joke, gimmick skill till their dead and I'm riverdancing on their corpse.

ruffenredie · Apr 27, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

um...

thanks to several of you, I appreciate the advice.

One more question, at the moment I am a warrior secondary and like the idea of an axe (I may switch to assassin secondary later), what mods should I add? enchanting obviously, then others energy? How about the axe haft?

To some of the others, you may possibly take the game a tad too seriously. Not everyone is playing to be the uber PVP char, I'd much rather be a bit different from everyone else. I like help and advice but find I completely ignore people shouting at each other to play certain exact builds. Many of us just want to have a bit of fun and try different stuff out. I haven't been in a PVP guild yet, so haven't gone that route (I may later). Now I'll freely admit I'm not a huge knowledge on PvP, but surely sometimes it may be an advantage to play a different build for the element of surprise? If there are such set builds that are only ever acceptable, surely everyone will be prepped to fight against them? I'm not saying IW fits that, but to be honest its not going to affect me either way, this won't be a char I play lots with, its just a bit of fun to play around with.

Kyomi Tachibana · Apr 27, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

If you want to use an axe replace the Deadly Riposte with Cyclone Axe in the Warrior build, as for axe hafts it doesn't matter since you won't be hitting, just stay away from Vamp and Zealous since you won't be hitting and gaining their benefits. :3

And yes, +5 en 20% enchant is a good choice.

Savio · Apr 27, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruffenredie

Now I'll freely admit I'm not a huge knowledge on PvP, but surely sometimes it may be an advantage to play a different build for the element of surprise? If there are such set builds that are only ever acceptable, surely everyone will be prepped to fight against them?

No. IW mesmers aren't a surprise and aren't hard to fight against.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 28, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

If you're using a condition, a haft that can extend that condition could be useful, like if you have caltrops, that derv crippling signet, accumulated pain, or something of the sort, otherwise it doesn't matter about the haft.

For the suffix you get a couple options, try and cast IW in a set that has bonuses for cast time and enchants, this can be a staff(40 hct for the staf head and inscription 20 hsr with an enchanting mod), and IIRC a melee weapon can get a HSR or HCT inscription(one the other or both... I forget atm), combined with a 20/20 illusion offhand and enchanting mods of the melee weapon. Then you can swap to a melee weapon with armor or HP bonuses or high energy. Also, see if you can get a scythe on hand to swap into, on the off chance you get to attack a stack of foes.

Faer · Apr 28, 2008, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I heard Illusionary Weaponry is good. It does lots of damage and is very hard to counter. Also because you don't actually connect with attacks you can tank with it using Feigned Neutrality and other enchantments.

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 28, 2008, 05:05 AM // 05:05

warriors are bad becase you can blind them and gg

Yuhe Ji · Apr 28, 2008, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

warriors are bad becase you can blind them and gg

Monks, [Mending Touch] and [Plague Touch] are all pretty useful. Unless your post was sarcasm...
IW is a lot of fun to play, but it's not quite as efficient as the other things mesmers can do. And it probably does work in RA and AB to an extent. I used to run a crappy earth elementalist build with no elite and armor of earth. I actually did pretty well with it (but I think it was the team making up for my ... inefficiency). I would take a good warrior over a good IW mesmer anyday.

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 28, 2008, 06:06 AM // 06:06

yeah it was sarcastic, i was just stirring faer

Katari · Apr 28, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

IW is inferior to crit-sins with wands and conjure, wanding Spirtual Stregth rit and the vow of strength conjure wand-dervish.

IW is more bad than it ever was.

Tyla · Apr 28, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

IW is inferior to crit-sins with wands and conjure, wanding Spirtual Stregth rit and the vow of strength conjure wand-dervish.

IW is more bad than it ever was.

!!!
My Spirit's Strength Wander does ALOT of damage kthx!!
(Doesn't change that it relies on enchantments though.

)

Either way if your entire DPS relies on an enchantment or whatever, it's a bad DPS character.

Painbringer · Apr 28, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Ok I know this is getting heated so let me put my twist on [Illusionary weaponry] I use this in RA and a few times after multiple matches in TA

The only way I have found IW ever to be effective (with out a dedicated monk keeping you going) is using the assassin shadow arts as a crutch.

Why

1. Mesmer’s have low armor
2. Mesmer’s Healing / protection skills are not effective to solo more than one target for long periods of time (compared to other classes enchantments etc…) Meaning if I am attacking a target and that target is attacking me I have a good chance of surviving. As soon as another foe picks on me so 2 vs.1 I am in instant trouble.

Why it works at least for me using the shadow arts. I dedicate half my bar to staying alive (this is it right here) you need to keep going to be effective.

My build is a hex and condition build this is what kills in the most part.

[viper's defense] [conjure nightmare]

IW is just for speeding up the process. My hex’s and conditions are constantly reapplied which pressure monks/rits. It also keeps 12 pips of degeneration on a target which mixed with constant armor ignoring damage is very deadly.

[dark escape] ½ damage and increased running speed what a great skill for 13 seconds (it will not go away because you do not hit with an attack)

[feigned neutrality] One of the best skills for self healing I have found +80 armor and 7 pips of health regeneration for 9 seconds. Just make sure to check your enchantments before casting so to not null the effect on yourself

[shroud of distress] this to me is better than illusionary weakness 75% chance to block attacks when below 50% health and it is a long lasting enchantment.

Enchantment rippers are the killers of my build, but I can always sit in the back line hexing conjure nightmare and poisoning anything that gets close.

Morwen Valkyria · May 01, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Hmm....
Why don't you go online togehter in a guild hall? Toss in a me, mo, W on one side and 2x W + mo on the other and test things out some?