Curse

thibault the monk · May 07, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Please do the math. Maxed rep title in GW:EN is 160k.

The other 10k comes from finishing the quests the first time which gives huge bonuses well over 10k. Forgot to mention that in my previous post.

Savio · May 07, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

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Originally Posted by JR

[Also; this should be in Riverside, not Campfire.]

If this was in Riverside, I'd have had to close it because of the mass number of dumb posts.

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Originally Posted by Shyft The Pyro

Why is it suddenly that GW players need to keep playing GW?

Presumably, people playing longer is linked to overall enjoyment of the game. How exactly the two are related is debatable.

People like grind; that is undisputed. They already have grind in the form of shiny weapons, armors, and titles. That's fine. The issue is "grind-->benefits" as the title states: Kurzick/Luxon, Lightbringer, Sunspear, Norn, Asura, Ebon Vanguard, Deldrimor - gaining advantages through grind is the exact opposite of one of the main mantras of Guild Wars - "skill not time spent." Some players hold this in high regard, and the direction Arenanet is now taking their franchise means that concept won't exist in their games anymore, or will be secondary to other concerns. For a game that was supposed to be revolutionary, it's quite disappointing.

Div · May 07, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

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Originally Posted by JR

Without titles where is the incentive to play? Since I started playing PvE again about two months ago I have played through all three campaigns. These days I do dungeon runs and rep farm with friends to max out my titles. I quite enjoy it, frankly I have more fun with what EotN brought to the game more than any of the chapters.

There was nothing wrong with the title system. When the title system gave inherent benefits in being able to clear an area faster/more easily, then that's a problem.

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I don't have SY, my Ursan (which I've used once, and probably never will again) is only rank 4, and I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't easily be cleared with 2 players and 6 heroes, most just with H&H. When using something like "Sabway" it becomes a joke, and that certainly doesn't require any kind of rank. Frankly if you don't have a friends/guildies to play with and help you out I don't know why you still play this game.

If you want to brag, then I can too. I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't be easily cleared by myself+heroes+hench as well. What's your point? The problem is that when the casual player whose friends aren't online wants to PUG in places like DoA, UW, or FoW, they are more or less forced to have a high ranked ursan title.

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However, Ursan is still less efficient than regular builds in the hands of good players.

My opinions are not as elitist as yours. I am trying to convey why it'll be bad for the general populace, not the top 0.1% of players. Even then, I really question that statement. Afaik, ursan groups can clear FoW faster (or just as fast) than the SMS SY groups, which are both faster than not using any PvE-only skills.

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For those of you comparing this to WoW or 'Korean grind MMOs', I question how many you have played or how far you have got in them. The grind in Guild Wars is absolutely miniscule compared to Lineage, Everquest, Silkroad, WoW or any other comparable titles.

There is no doubt that the grind in GW is much less than in other MMOs. I'm a fan of grind, but it's just disappointing that Anet is turning back on their original promises.

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The problem, I believe, is the dominance of ovepowered title linked skills like Ursan/SY.

That's a whole new problem that was discussed in another thread.

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[Also; this should be in Riverside, not Campfire.]

I have it here so that I can get more quality control and not have random clueless people come in and post completely illogical things.

Racthoh · May 07, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

However, Ursan is still less efficient than regular builds in the hands of good players.

Somewhat. PvErs as a whole can't adapt that well which generally explains the outbursts of hate at skill balances when suddenly they have to change their precious build. This explains why they encounter difficulties with something that is seen as trivial to others.

Ursan however requires no adjustment on the player's part. It loads a skillbar with everything the player needs to steamroll everything. A big damage skill, a damage KD, speed boost in case anything moves, and a shout to do more damage while making things weaker. A regular bar can offer more but where Ursan excels are those areas where you're faced with a lot of shutdown that will slow the normal bars down. Ursan ignores it all, freeing up those skills slots that a more balanced group would have to take to compensate for when their physicals/casters are faced with hate. A Dragon Slash bar has great damage, not so much when you're faced with an inherent 50% miss, Blurred Vision, and Faintheartedness that can be found in Ravenheart Gloom HM.

I suppose it depends on your definition of efficient however. Regular builds can handle the situation with ease but the Ursan groups just steamroll everything and anything in record times.

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

Afaik, ursan groups can clear FoW faster (or just as fast) than the SMS SY groups, which are both faster than not using any PvE-only skills.

Consumables tie into that as well, namely Armor of Salvation. I don't think many players realize how huge being immune to critical hits and -5 damage reduction is truly worth. Moreso in an Ursan group however compared to an SY bot. Essence of Celerity are huge for Ursan groups as well, Grails of Might do nothing except make Protective Spirit a useless skill and give your HB monks two more Orisons.

Melody Cross · May 07, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

*puts down popcorn*

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

I have it here so that I can get more quality control and not have random clueless people come in and post completely illogical things.

I guess I'm glad it is here if thats why. I would have figured this topic to have disintegrated into a flamewar between Ursanlovers and elitists by now; tbh.

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

There was nothing wrong with the title system. When the title system gave inherent benefits in being able to clear an area faster/more easily, then that's a problem.

Not to get too off track, but whats your take on consumables? I have to say an armor does more for a team than four Ursans. No crits make backlining considerably easier even in the hardest areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If you want to brag, then I can too. I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't be easily cleared by myself+heroes+hench as well. What's your point? The problem is that when the casual player whose friends aren't online wants to PUG in places like DoA, UW, or FoW, they are more or less forced to have a high ranked ursan title.

And Lightbringer. And Asuran, Sunspear, etc. Farming builds are starting to incorporate these title skills into their makeup as well. This in turn is expanding the gap between rich and poor players in game. EX: the only reason I'm getting my ele through GW:EN is for the raptor farm. I'll "have" to farm up her titles at least a little to use air of superiority there. More to my point (and yours) is the dual and tripple title grind required for some builds. What use is an imbagon (I still call em that, sygon doesn't do the build justice) if he only has r6 sunspear? Will you invite him into a DoA if his lightbringer is only r4? Better question: would the average PuG? Who wants a caster in their duncan group that only has an r1-2 pain inverter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

My opinions are not as elitist as yours. I am trying to convey why it'll be bad for the general populace, not the top 0.1% of players. Even then, I really question that statement. Afaik, ursan groups can clear FoW faster (or just as fast) than the SMS SY groups, which are both faster than not using any PvE-only skills.

Not just faster; these groups can shatter HM records for non-PvE only skill times. Used to be, it took hours to do DoA. It felt like a raid. Now, its mindless seed spam for the backline. I feel like a bonder when I monk for groups in there. Which reiterates the overall lack of improved gameplay these titles represent for PvEers or the diehard PvPvEers that play and enjoy both formats of competition and stayed with the game.

Players used to think about their builds. In that regard GWP and to a lessor degree GWF and GWNF were like Magic: the Gathering (they should be, Anet claims the card game was part of their inspiration). You Designed and created something in those 8 skills. PvE or PvP, the 64 skills you walked into a zone with determined strategy and effectiveness. Now? Ranks do.

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

There is no doubt that the grind in GW is much less than in other MMOs. I'm a fan of grind, but it's just disappointing that Anet is turning back on their original promises.

see original post in page 2 of this thread. But I have to play devil's advocate here as well and remind players that skill>than grind never meant Zero grind required. Even in GWP there was a grind req. If you wanted a good PvE toon (and a serious PvPer back then did for various reasons that don't really exists now) you had to get it to level 20, cap your skills and buy your various armor types and weaponsets.

Grind for levels and area completion is one thing. This is forced farming. Its a whole other ballgame by comparison to what we used to have to go through. And its the reason titles are bad for PvE.

It took 3 characters before grinding to 20 became genuinely boring for me in GWP. It took a few hours of vanquishing for farming norn to become repetitive. Think of that as you will but, for me, there is a considerable difference between playing a game and farming to play a game. Title, heal potion mats, food or whatever you wish for whatever game you wish, this type of grind never appealed to me for MMOs. And its the reaosn why I lost interest in all the others but GW. The only reason why GW didn't die a simular uninstall fate is, as holymasamune and others have said, the farm grind is, thankfully, considerably less here in GW1 than other MMOs.

But with its open-ended level system and "catering to PvEers", can the same be said for GW2 and beyond? Personally, I doubt it.

GGs

JR · May 07, 2008, 09:13 AM // 09:13

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

There was nothing wrong with the title system. When the title system gave inherent benefits in being able to clear an area faster/more easily, then that's a problem.

What's wrong with that? What other incentives are you going to give?

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If you want to brag, then I can too. I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't be easily cleared by myself+heroes+hench as well. What's your point? The problem is that when the casual player whose friends aren't online wants to PUG in places like DoA, UW, or FoW, they are more or less forced to have a high ranked ursan title.

I think you misunderstand my point. I wasn't bragging, quite the opposite, I was pointing out that I am absolutely nothing special at PvE. I consider myself a pretty casual and average player in that context, yet I am still able to fully enjoy all areas of the game. The grind just gives me options to make it easier/faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

My opinions are not as elitist as yours. I am trying to convey why it'll be bad for the general populace, not the top 0.1% of players. Even then, I really question that statement. Afaik, ursan groups can clear FoW faster (or just as fast) than the SMS SY groups, which are both faster than not using any PvE-only skills.

Certainly not elitist, and if I gave you that impression that it was a simple misunderstanding.

Regardless, I could well have been wrong about that. As I stated I don't have vast amount of experience with Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

There is no doubt that the grind in GW is much less than in other MMOs. I'm a fan of grind, but it's just disappointing that Anet is turning back on their original promises.

The skill over time spent promise? As far as I am concerned that has always been a tagline referring to the PvP side, though you are quite right that it has in the past applied to PvE also.

Shrug. It still begs the question; if you aren't grinding to be more powerful what is the point in grinding?

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

That's a whole new problem that was discussed in another thread.

I think it's the root of the problem you have.

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

I have it here so that I can get more quality control and not have random clueless people come in and post completely illogical things.

Fair point.

odly · May 07, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

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Originally Posted by Racthoh

Equipping obsidian armor doesn't allow you to steamroll areas though. It's just for looks or a sense of personal achievement. I've never seen "looking for warrior, must have FoW armor" in local.

Not entirely, get to level 20 with 200 attribute points and you're good to go. For Ursan to work, get to level 20 with 200 attribute points then grind 160k norn for your skill to be as strong as possible. Then you're allowed to play. It's not a matter of having the right profession it's a matter of whether or not you've dedicated yourself to the necessary grind.

And remember, you have to redo it on every character you feel like playing.
To get into a Pug, yes. But even when you play with a few H/H you might like your skills and attacks to do the max damage.

My Dervish, Assassin etc don't get as much damage out of 'I am the strongest' as someone else's, because my main is my necro and I haven't had time to grind the tittles on those characters as well. Level 20 with 200 attribute points no longer means a means you're character is maxed out like it used to before PvE only skills.

SS/LB is easy to max. I've done it on 2 characters (necro and paragon).
But that doesn't allow my dervish or assassin to get into DoA groups.
Even my monk is frowned upon for not having max tittles.

I play a lot of characters. I like them all. I do have time to take them through all the game(s) and get all the skills and equipment I want. But I don't have time to max out all those tittles. And I do want my attacks to do as much damage as the next guy.

So I'm I a whiner for not wanting to complete the eotn quest line 4 times on each character ? It really is not that interesting.
Or because I don't feel like spending my next 2 months of playing time inside a wurm ?

To me these tittle tracks are ruining the fun, because of the PvE linked advantages, especially since those are character based.
They are making me want to stop playing GW all together instead of keeping me interested till GW2.

Div · May 07, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

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Originally Posted by JR

Shrug. It still begs the question; if you aren't grinding to be more powerful what is the point in grinding?

You raise good points that in order for GW to survive and continue to be played, something has to be given to the players to grind. Obviously what they have done is a great thing for keeping their playerbase.

However, I'm not asking to get rid of grind. I'm just curious to see what would happen if they added say, elite armors upon reaching rank10 in a reputation title (or requiring all 4 gwen rep titles), as opposed to giving people blatantly OP skills that casual players are forced to have in order to PUG.

I wouldn't mind little things such as a better salvage percentage or a little extra conditional damage with lightbringer, though in an ideal balanced game that's not preferable either. I just don't want game-breaking skills to be tied to something a player has to grind a significant amount of time for.

And to answer your question: before gwen, people still farmed. They farmed for fow armor, better weapons, better minipets. Is it not possible to just make the rewards of grinding shinier weapons and bigger epeen? Why does it have to be game-breaking benefits?

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Originally Posted by Racthoh

Consumables tie into that as well, namely Armor of Salvation. I don't think many players realize how huge being immune to critical hits and -5 damage reduction is truly worth. Moreso in an Ursan group however compared to an SY bot. Essence of Celerity are huge for Ursan groups as well, Grails of Might do nothing except make Protective Spirit a useless skill and give your HB monks two more Orisons.

Yeah, I was taking consumables into account. The biggest weakness of ursan was defense because of shitty PUG monks. With them, they take no damage anyway, so the only "downside" is gone.

I think this pretty much sums up my argument:

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Originally Posted by Savio

There are two types of grind. There's optional grind like shiny weapons, sure keep that in the game. Necessary grind that you must do before you can play the game for fun is bad and should be eliminated. That's what this thread is about.

Sab · May 07, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

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Originally Posted by JR

What's wrong with that? What other incentives are you going to give?

(snip)

Shrug. It still begs the question; if you aren't grinding to be more powerful what is the point in grinding?

Because for some, it's fun. People spend thousands of hours of play time and millions of gold to reach r6 KoaBD, even though it has no inherent benefit (not even a gold animal emote). Players don't need any special incentive to grind - they do it for the fun and the e-peen.

JR · May 07, 2008, 10:58 AM // 10:58

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Originally Posted by holymasume

However, I'm not asking to get rid of grind. I'm just curious to see what would happen if they added say, elite armors upon reaching rank10 in a reputation title (or requiring all 4 gwen rep titles)...

Well they already have EotN armor that requires certain title ranks. That idea could be expanded on, but I guess they wanted to add more diversity.

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Originally Posted by holymasume

...as opposed to giving people blatantly OP skills that casual players are forced to have in order to PUG.

This goes back to my point about the particularly overpowered PvE skills being the root of your problem.

For example; you don't see people saying 'LF r10+ Whirlind Attack Warrior', because it just doesn't matter that much. It's a nice skill with a decent damage bonus that is very effective in PvE, but it's not so powerful that it becomes a requirement - which is where Savio's comment about necessary grind comes in.

The root of the problem is not with PvE skills being linked to titles, it is with the sheer and obvious imbalance of some particular PvE skills.

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Originally Posted by holymasume

And to answer your question: before gwen, people still farmed. They farmed for fow armor, better weapons, better minipets. Is it not possible to just make the rewards of grinding shinier weapons and bigger epeen? Why does it have to be game-breaking benefits?

That was in fact part of my arguement that I left out; that we already have a significant amount of grind for looking pretty. The more grind of that type you introduce into the game the less meaningful it becomes.

If they are going to give you grind on a plate because they can't develop more actual content it may aswell be meaningful, and I think PvE skills fulfill that more effectively than more armor sets. Sadly the few problematic PvE skills have tainted the idea.

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Originally Posted by Sab

People spend thousands of hours of play time and millions of gold to reach r6 KoaBD, even though it has no inherent benefit (not even a gold animal emote). Players don't need any special incentive to grind - they do it for the fun and the e-peen.

What percentage of the population cares about reaching r6 KoaBD?

Avarre · May 07, 2008, 11:31 AM // 11:31

It seems a lot of players don't play GW because it's fun as much as they play it because of grinding. The PvE game's length is pretty much 90% about going for titles - there isn't any depth in the game itself to give replay value for the most part.

Who even pays attention to anything in PvE besides the amount of loot and the time taken to get it? It's so shallow and simple that there's no real thought left. Time - grinding and area completion, replaced thought.

Sab · May 07, 2008, 11:32 AM // 11:32

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Originally Posted by JR

What percentage of the population cares about reaching r6 KoaBD?

KoaBD was just an example, kind of a summary for all the "pointless" grindy titles people achieve with no benefits: Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, Cartographer, LDoA, Survivor, etc. Most players I've played with (even PvPers) have gone out of their way to get these titles, despite there being no real reward.

Cebe · May 07, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

There is no doubt that the grind in GW is much less than in other MMOs. I'm a fan of grind, but it's just disappointing that Anet is turning back on their original promises.

While I agree that the amount of grind people feel the need to do is growing, I don't feel that the PvE skills from Eye of the North require grind to be good. I'm struggling to think of a good EotN PvE skill which isn't perfectly useable within the first 1-3 tiers (obtainable from just playing through the game). Bad PvE skills, of course, are still bad despite your rank in their respective title tracks.

A lot of people who play the game these days can not (or will not) allow themselves out of the mindset of only allowing themselves to use the most efficient build possible. This is what leads to people getting mad that the same builds are suggested on this forum over and over and over such as Godmode for Paragon, or MS-DB Assassin builds, or Mind Blast Ele builds etc.. These are suggested because of their effiiciency and because they are one of, if not, the best build for a class to play given a certain scenario or situation. When people begin to use the exact same build with the exact same attributes, this rolls over to things like PvE skills, where players demand other players have a specific rank on a title track, even though there is little difference between most ranks.

It is generally players who enforce the fact that more grind = benefits by only allowing certain ranks into their groups. I can understand why this is beneficial in PvP as "Rank" is probably the best indicator of experience you have if you're playing with people you don't know. As for PvE, it is not necessary, but it only takes a few people to do it to start a trend, a trend which ends up stagnating and being complained about with noone having the will, power, or motivation to do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Avarre

It's so shallow and simple that there's no real thought left.

It's sad but that's true. Really makes me wish I'd started playing this game sooner.

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Originally Posted by Sab

KoaBD was just an example, kind of a summary for all the "pointless" grindy titles people achieve with no benefits: Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, Cartographer, LDoA, Survivor, etc. Most players I've played with (even PvPers) have gone out of their way to get these titles, despite there being no real reward.

Perhaps some people enjoy going for those titles? I know this is true of me - there may be no "reward", but it's a relaxing use of my time. I like Cartographer, and have it on multiple characters, and often use it as a way of having a break from doing anything more pointful. Survivor was also fun to do once. The others do seem like pointless money sinks to me too but...they maybe float somebody's boat.

legacyofkain85 · May 08, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

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Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

To add on to your awesome insight, holy, is that the grind 'needs'* to be done on every PvE character you play if you want to get into PuGs and shit.

I'll take your analogy of getting to RX in HA, and remind people that instead of grinding just once you need to do it all over again for every toon you have - making having multiple characters a pain in the ass for more casual players hoping to get into elite mission PuGs.

*bad word, but the best I could think of... I'm aware you don't 'need' to grind

So true especially when u want to play an area with another char ,u go like yeah i feel like doing doa on mi X char today ,darn i forgot i dont have that Y title at that Z rank(max usually),but what bugs me the most is getting tired of pve-ing with mi title char(the char i do most of mi titles),wanting to switch to another char than reallizing there is no point because all titles are on 1 char

legacyofkain85 · May 08, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

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Originally Posted by Sab

KoaBD was just an example, kind of a summary for all the "pointless" grindy titles people achieve with no benefits: Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, Cartographer, LDoA, Survivor, etc. Most players I've played with (even PvPers) have gone out of their way to get these titles, despite there being no real reward.

It´s more about the feeling of acomplishment

Shyft the Pyro · May 08, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

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Originally Posted by Savio

Presumably, people playing longer is linked to overall enjoyment of the game. How exactly the two are related is debatable.

Piggy-backing grind onto this convoluted relationship is like feeding your horse from the wrong end. Yes, people generally spend more time in a game when they like it, but making people spend more time in the game will not automatically result in people liking the game more.

Grind is addictive, as is the sense of accomplishment/e-peen the player gets when the grind is finally completed (see: legacyofkain85), but addiction and willing enjoyment are, as they say where I'm from, two big differences. Getting people addicted and stringing them along is a survival mechanism for pay-to-play MMOs, one that the Guild Wars business model has no need for.

A lot of people enjoy cigarettes without realizing they are addicted, and refuse when offered ways to get rid of the addiction. Grind is the same way: it is as bad for you as gambling, alcohol, and cigarette addictions, yet because it is so prevalent and acceptable in contemporary gaming, it is in many cases seen as necessary - a position that I find simply ridiculous.

The problem is that so many people have grown up grinding away at their games that, as proven by "blockbuster" MMOs like WoW and EQ, "grind-friendly" gamers now comprise a major part of the gaming market. Without catering to these gamers, ANet can never hope to cut into the market share of other, "grind-friendly" games.

Despite the above, I have nothing against "grind-friendly" games. Personally, I wouldn't play them, but just as I won't dismiss an FPS game only for being a type of game I do not enjoy, I cannot dismiss "grind-friendly" games for their choice of a mechanism for customer retention. The real issue here is that, due to ANet's ambition and desire to control a greater share of the market, their gaming style is being inserted into my game. If their gaming style wins, Guild Wars won't be my game any more, which means ANet will lose me as a customer - but considering how many customers ANet stands to gain from this change, my actions will not matter one bit.

Yes, I am being very pessimistic about this. If I'm wrong in my assessment, I'll be glad; if I'm right, at least I'll get to say "I called it"