Curse

street peddler · May 23, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

so the heroes will use discord only when the conditions are met? i was afraid of them just using it all willy nilly.

Sab · May 23, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

Wow.GJ Tyla,asked a ? and best I get is your opinion on things to be done your way.

AS for Soul Reaping.90% of the creatures don't make it into my backfield for him to take full advantage of it.Thus it's low.However the upside is the massive boosts in other departments.

I run as a tank with Koss running as a secondary tank.Now I realize that a warriors armor level being 116+ and the MAX a damage modifier that can hit that is .379 means pretty much nada to the typical player.Nor does anyone even understand the fullness of Enfeebling Blood,but hey,I asked a stupid question and got a stupid answer.What more should I have expected?

PS This is an edit and an apology.Glad you all are so broad minded.

Tbh I didn't understand what you were asking in the previous post. If you wanted suggestions for your Curses build, drop all the Blood skills, take Barbs, Rigor and an enchantment removal to support your physicals. That allows you to put points into Soul Reaping so you can drop Glyph and take something from another secondary. Drop Reckless for Enfeebling Blood, since they have the same function but weakness more spammable, has a better range, and will be better shutdown overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

so the heroes will use discord only when the conditions are met? i was afraid of them just using it all willy nilly.

Yes, and by some sort of magic, all the heroes will target the same guy even if there are multiple enemies who meet the conditions. They're so good with it that they got Discord nerfed in the first place.

Richardt · May 23, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Maybe for the Discord Necros, I would try some AoE hexing:

[suffering][ulcerous lungs][shadow of fear][reckless haste]

are a few that come to mind.

Racthoh · May 23, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

[build prof=N/P command=10 blood=12+1+1 soul=8+1]["Incoming!"][Signet Of Return]["Never Surrender!"][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Masochism][Signet of Lost Souls][No Skill][/build]

Not sure what to put in the last slot yet.

Richardt · May 23, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

[build prof = N/P command=10 blood=12+1+1 soul=8+1]["Incoming!"][Signet Of Return]["Never Surrender!"][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Masochism][No Skill][/build]

Not sure what to put in the last slot yet.

How about [weaken armor]?

Whilst it is Curses, it doesn't require much pointage (if i did my math right I think you have enough left over points to raise it to 2 or 3) to cover the recharge and it's pretty cheap. With [masochism] and Soul Reaping you should have enough energy.

Other than that...[well of blood] sticks out for some health regen and perhaps [foul feast] for some condition removal.

Racthoh · May 23, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Even at a low spec Weaken Armour would work; 5 seconds is more than enough time to make something die.

Tyla · May 23, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

Wow.GJ Tyla,asked a ? and best I get is your opinion on things to be done your way.

If you can give me a valid reason as of why Enfeebling Blood is bad, do so.

I've given all of the good points about it, and being able to shut down any physical damage is like sex in a pixel box.
To boot, I usually run BHA, PSpirit, Enfeebling Blood as my main defense.

That's 3 skills out of 64 usable, to shut down: Casters, any damage on a single ally and all physical damage to an extent.

Nightow · May 23, 2008, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Even at a low spec Weaken Armour would work; 5 seconds is more than enough time to make something die.

How about [Rip Enchantment]?

No downside, cheap, fast and very short recharge for an enchant removal.
Doesn't even require an investment in curses when you think about it.

BTW, that description is not accurate. It no longer has a health sacrifice.

Richardt · May 23, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Ooooo didn't think of [rip enchantment].

That would be pretty nice against those pesky raptors.

Nightow · May 23, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

Ooooo didn't think of [rip enchantment].

That would be pretty nice against those pesky raptors.

Wouldn't you want more AoE or party wide enchantment removal for those guys? (Sorry for going off topic)

Edit: Nevermind... [blinding surge]

Terrokian · May 24, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If you can give me a valid reason as of why Enfeebling Blood is bad, do so.

I've given all of the good points about it, and being able to shut down any physical damage is like sex in a pixel box.
To boot, I usually run BHA, PSpirit, Enfeebling Blood as my main defense.

That's 3 skills out of 64 usable, to shut down: Casters, any damage on a single ally and all physical damage to an extent.

Well your good points are good.But a Warrior class needing Enfeebling Blood is a BAD thing.Once again warriors don't need physical protection.It's built into their class.Plain and simple.This was my argument in the warrior forums,but was told that NOT reducing the already reduced physical damage was being a troll.Go figure.

If a person is playing a warrior,then physical damage is the least of your worries.However Curses,Conditions,and Spells should be of major concern.Which Enfeebling blood does not take care of.A typical warrior runs 116+ AL.That number can be GREATLY increased to even further reduce physical damage.

So having your curse necro further reduce physical damage seems a tad (insert your fave somewhat insultish comment here).At a base 116 the damage modifier they get is .379.Non negotiable on that number.And ANY bonuses to physical damage reduction simply lowers that number.Once again non negotiable.

Why is Enfeebling Blood so bad?It isn't UNLESS you are a warrior at which time it is TERRIBLE.

Once again you need to understand a Warrior's ability to deal with physical damage is far greater than you give it credit.

And lowering a HM monsters skills from 19 to 18 is not the great boost you claim it to be.Enfeebling Blood IS NOT the godly skill as it is made out to be.

Ok you say 66% reduction sucks right?That reduction WILL NOT AFFECT spells,or bonus damage.So monster A hit's with an axe.It gets 6-28 damage on that swing.For sake of argument it gets 17 points.You reduce 66% of that.You eat 5.78 damage,but it was Executioners Strike he hit with.So you eat the additional 48 points of damage for a grand total of 53.78 instead of a max 76 points.If that monster averages out in HM you eat 53.78 damage per hit.And YOU DID NO DAMAGE to it.Enfeebling Blood does no damage.

Is there a better curse to throw on it instead of being defensive?Well you tell me.

Turbobusa · May 24, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Yeah you better take an obsidian tank and have the eles nuke the hell out of the ennemies, because it is well known that flare is superior DPS than a warrior

Are you saying that you watch your target attacking? enfeebling blood is there so that once cast, you forget about the melees, because they deal nearly nothing. Come on 66% damage reduction for free is bad HOW?!?

DarkSpirit · May 24, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Enfeebling blood is a good skill against physical attackers. Although I understand Terrokian's reasons, I still think that besides his warrior, enfeebling blood is also useful to protect his backline casters when they are attacked by physical attackers. I doubt his warrior would be drawing all attacks all the time.

On the other hand, there are also ranger attackers that are well spaced out in HM that makes it difficult to weaken all at once, so there is also a limit to the usefulness of Enfeebling blood. In any case, it is still a good choice to bring along.

zwei2stein · May 24, 2008, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

Well your good points are good.But a Warrior class needing Enfeebling Blood is a BAD thing.Once again warriors don't need physical protection.It's built into their class.Plain and simple.This was my argument in the warrior forums,but was told that NOT reducing the already reduced physical damage was being a troll.Go figure.

If a person is playing a warrior,then physical damage is the least of your worries.However Curses,Conditions,and Spells should be of major concern.Which Enfeebling blood does not take care of.A typical warrior runs 116+ AL.That number can be GREATLY increased to even further reduce physical damage.

So having your curse necro further reduce physical damage seems a tad (insert your fave somewhat insultish comment here).At a base 116 the damage modifier they get is .379.Non negotiable on that number.And ANY bonuses to physical damage reduction simply lowers that number.Once again non negotiable.

Why is Enfeebling Blood so bad?It isn't UNLESS you are a warrior at which time it is TERRIBLE.

Once again you need to understand a Warrior's ability to deal with physical damage is far greater than you give it credit.

And lowering a HM monsters skills from 19 to 18 is not the great boost you claim it to be.Enfeebling Blood IS NOT the godly skill as it is made out to be.

Ok you say 66% reduction sucks right?That reduction WILL NOT AFFECT spells,or bonus damage.So monster A hit's with an axe.It gets 6-28 damage on that swing.For sake of argument it gets 17 points.You reduce 66% of that.You eat 5.78 damage,but it was Executioners Strike he hit with.So you eat the additional 48 points of damage for a grand total of 53.78 instead of a max 76 points.If that monster averages out in HM you eat 53.78 damage per hit.And YOU DID NO DAMAGE to it.Enfeebling Blood does no damage.

Is there a better curse to throw on it instead of being defensive?Well you tell me.

Being alive to kill shit sounds pretty offensive to me. Having monks have free energy to cleam damage impairing hexes/conditions sounds offensive too.

HM monsters do way more than 6-28 damage. In fact, their base damage overshaddows any bonus damage: not every hit has bonus damage, and nomal hits hit for 50+ (remeber, about 2/3 of classic shock warrior output is base damage. Mobs + damage skills are usually way worse, i guess em to be usually 1/4 to 1/5 of damage being bonus damage).

Even if you add bonus damage to equation, enfeebling still saves you ~50% total damage. Whoa. Thats right. Enfeebling blood is effectivelly equivalent to super cheap no recharge Aegis. Even as warrior when your 50s are turned to 22s by your innate armor, having stream of them turn to freaking 7s is priceless. every 8 hits on warrior (and 4 on caster) you save your healers 5 energry on red bar go up spell. Things get hit a lot more often than that per one cast of enfeebling. That saved energy can be used to keep party clean of conditions and hexes that hinder damage output. In fact increase damage output.

Anothe fact is that caster mobs are smart: they wand stuff while humans usually just stand around looking pretty when not casting, Its 30 per hit. Enfeebling works on that making it 10 per hit, alomst NM. It makes all the difference between being wandspiked and not. Wands do not make physical damage btw, and ignoring them is ... well ... ignorant.

And we didn't cover the fact that warriror is unlikely to be the only one to receive aggro ... unless you play tankway, but them its GG.

Terrokian · May 24, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Thank you thank you thank you.I have so wanted some INTELLIGENT debate on this point.

When I run my W/X,I try and tank with the notion that in a couple seconds my H/H will be there.I generally pick a target,jack my armor,enrage to target,hit FGJ,then flail.After that all bets are off.

If I vampire on my AoE build replacing life is not a prob.Nor is grabbing the monster's aggro.At which time the minions and curses hit.I'm still alive after the pummeling they gave AND physical damage.

But at this point I do get seriously worried about the conditions and hexes that have been put on me.I mean I am in trouble and the monks do get busy with some healing and removal.

Now I need my curser to do DAMAGE not protect me from damage that honestly doesn't mean crap to begin with(average 140+ armor at all times not even counting that any given hit is reduced by 5).

So with all that in mind,what would be a good curse to throw in with a warrior?Barbs seems nice enough,but I'm getting 20-42 bonus damage already and thinking another +16 really isn't all that.

To me honestly Enfeebling Blood is a nice skill when you are ANYTHING but a warrior.Physical damage to the other classes IS a major issue.At moment my Curser looks like this.

[build=Olias;OAZDQsNHPvBkReQotHaDVVuA]

Now he is getting damage while keeping himself alive,but was thinking maybe I am missing something.

The low Soul Reaping is because he hits from a distance.Not in the melee storm.Plus he does have a ton of Life Leeching.

Tyla · May 24, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

And when holding agro breaks?

Oh yeah, you kinda don't need to be on the frontlines to gain bonus from SR.

Plus as a Warrior you can just use SY and not tank because your party is bumming damage reduction at that point.

Enfeebling Blood is basically SY for a Necro that kills anything that uses physical damage.

And just because it doesn't work on casters is not the point. One skill to mitigate the majority of physical damage is good. Only one skill.

As a Warrior you're not put to a disadvantage with it either. Infact, SY > Tanking as it protects your party from anything that's caster aswell as physical. Enfeebling Blood can help with the downtime of "FGJ!", but if you really think Necro's are all about damage, or just because certain things do no damage, I will laugh at you.

And on a side note: PLEASE put spaces after commas and full stops!

Shaz · May 24, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

[build=Olias;OAZDQsNHPvBkReQotHaDVVuA]

The low Soul Reaping is because he hits from a distance.Not in the melee storm.Plus he does have a ton of Life Leeching.

SR have a pretty large range, if he's in range to cast those spell then he's in range to get SR. Even though you have GoLE, running that bar with only 4 SR is pretty bad, especially on a hero.

Plus that's a pretty bad bar, Blood line don't have anything worthwhile to take other than an Orders bar. Sab make some good suggestions here, I would look into it if I were you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If you wanted suggestions for your Curses build, drop all the Blood skills, take Barbs, Rigor and an enchantment removal to support your physicals. That allows you to put points into Soul Reaping so you can drop Glyph and take something from another secondary. Drop Reckless for Enfeebling Blood, since they have the same function but weakness more spammable, has a better range, and will be better shutdown overall.

Terrokian · May 24, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And when holding agro breaks?

Get outside of your groups aggro range and this becomes a non issue. The monsters will engage you and only you.When the rest of your group engages,it's a tad to late for your foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Plus as a Warrior you can just use SY and not tank because your party is bumming damage reduction at that point.

See above and as a side note.SY! duration just blows.Remember your are LEAVING your group behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Enfeebling Blood is basically SY for a Necro that kills anything that uses physical damage.

Yes it is,but when a W/X leads your party and does competent tanking,this IMO is not needed.See above responses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And just because it doesn't work on casters is not the point. One skill to mitigate the majority of physical damage is good. Only one skill.

It negates the base physical damage of melee and bow.Not the bonus nor any spell damage.It also reduces a HM creature from 19 attribute level to 18.If jacking your characters attributes by 1 is simply a joke(this is going from a minor rune of +1skill to a +2skill with a negligible health reduction),then how does lowering a monster's attributes by one equate to being so sweet?The 66% physical damage is nice IF YOU ARE NOT A WARRIOR.Warriors however deal with physical damage rather nicely.Remember the damage modifier is a .379 on a NO INSCRIPTION NO INSIGNIA typical shield bearing sword/axe warrior.That number gets WAY lower.Not to mention you can reduce 5 damage off every hit.Where you get that a hit can go to 80-100 damage is the crack talking.IT CANNOT.It gets that damage due to damage modifier and bonuses and your armor level.Learn the game mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

As a Warrior you're not put to a disadvantage with it either. Infact, SY > Tanking as it protects your party from anything that's caster aswell as physical. Enfeebling Blood can help with the downtime of "FGJ!", but if you really think Necro's are all about damage, or just because certain things do no damage, I will laugh at you.

Once again PLEASE look at the tactics used here.Let's try and POUND this in your brain as you continually ignore it.

#1 Jack your armor up[Great Dwarf Armor]
#2 Run to target[Enraging Charge]
#3 Get some extra adrenaline[For Great Justice]
#4 Increase your IAS[Flail]
#5 Attack[You Move Like A Dwarf][Triple Chop][Whirlwind Attack][Executioner's Strike]
#6 Wait for H/H to arrive WHILE repeating steps 1-5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And on a side note: PLEASE put spaces after commas and full stops!

If your best opinion is to sit here and play Mr spelling,sentence structure,grammar,etc etc Nazi,then by all means have a nice,tall glass of STFU.Stick to the discussion NOT what YOU feel is proper English/grammatic/spelling/sentence/paragraph structure.No one else seems to have a problem following what is being debated.THEY seem to be able to grasp the concept here and add useful input.

Tyla · May 24, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

You can hold aggro with any character, not just Warrior.

This is simply done with SoA and PSpirit.

I suppose Enfeebling Blood is bad completely now? No.

I prefer to run in with my entire party and get the job done quickly. SY gains power because if you run a D-Slash bar, it's automatically charged as is Brawling Headbutt. You have 2 slots for utility.

And seriously, it doesn't work with caster damage, yeah, but guess what? Daze doesn't do shit to Warriors either, does that mean Daze is bad?

Read Zwei2stein's post about bonus damage and the likes. Most damage, as he said, comes from autoattacking. Most specifically in HM.

As for the quote to my side note, properly punctuating your post equates to an easy to read post that helps your argument. I pointed out one thing, so it's not like I'm pointing out everything about you.

Holding aggro is different to tanking by the way.

Terrokian · May 24, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

SR have a pretty large range, if he's in range to cast those spell then he's in range to get SR. Even though you have GoLE, running that bar with only 4 SR is pretty bad, especially on a hero.

Plus that's a pretty bad bar, Blood line don't have anything worthwhile to take other than an Orders bar. Sab make some good suggestions here, I would look into it if I were you.

The bloodline is simply for damage and leeching.Soul Reaping does supply energy per death,but taking a pause after battles generally addresses this issue.

I did take a thought on Sab's point's.She is after all the Master on triple necro parties.And I certainly DO NOT mean any disrespect to her on any suggestions.

To me I'm thinking WoB is a nice bonus,but can be replaced.And LS is cool enough,but honestly with my tactics he simply isn't needing nor using it.He just doesn't get hit worth a damn to require it,but it does cause damage to foes.

I guess overall I am feeling a little frustrated with him.I feel he should spit more damage and I'm not getting that.