Curse

Malician · Jul 09, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Monks aren't even close to strictly inferior to Eles as Monks. Monks have 3 main jobs - one, to keep people from exploding (Big Prot / Infuse); two, dealing with long term pressure (Small Prot / HoT / Party Heal); three, cleaning (Condition / Hex removal).

Ether Renewal bars are typically unfairly strong at the first job; they're mediocre at the second (Infuse spam, marginal party heals), and pretty awful at the third. As long as Monks play up those other jobs they're still very valuable; they should be tending towards RC, Divert, and similar bars when there's an ER Ele in the group.

If you mainly play PUGs, you'll notice that 90% of monks are either HB, Unyielding Aura or some worse conglomeration of healing crap with random protection skills they don't know how to use. I just played with a monk who had two separate resurrects. Whenever I'd infuse he slapped healing breeze on me. When the physicals in your party are using Defy Pain and have no idea what SY! even is, well, condition removal matters a bit less.

So you're right with the exception of terribad PUGs.

wiz12268 · Jul 18, 2009, 06:20 AM // 06:20

I have played every main profession except Necro and Warrior. And out of the ones I have plated assassin seems to be the weakests, followed closely by elementalist.

That is in the strict generic overall concept of the game.

Obviously every prof will have some sort of gimmick builds where they can own a certain map or situation, but in everyday playing situations assassins and eles are the top two.

Surprised to see ritualists so often. Granted I havent played mine too much but the past 3 or 4 days I have, and with a good balance (not the gimmicky builds) they more than hold their own in hardmode.

But my ranger is basically the vanquishing king of all my professions, and REALLY surprised to see so many people name them as a not so good class.

But I think this thread shows one thing ...most people can't think past a build they can't find on the wiki somewhere, so if it isn't there or they can't get it to "work" right then the profession is broken.

But if it isn't sabway, discordway, Rojway, imbagon or whatever other flavor of the month team build then people don't want to hear about it. When in fact there are probably about 50 better team builds out there than these that people just don't or won't share with others.

But IMO from what I have seen in the years I have played this game currently the professions in order of strongest to weakest for "everyday" NORMAL mode PvE, would be...

Ranger
Ritualist
Paragon
Necro(never played one but versatility puts them here)
Monk
Dervish
Mesmer
Warrior (never played one so a guess)
Elementalist
Assassin

But basically it comes down to versatility and what you can and can't do and how many skills they have that go well with other skills and other professions skills. Sure assassins have one major league build that probably 99% of them run, but it is totally reliant on another class to work properly. While an "imbagon" paragon (the other cookie cutter class) can work well with ANY other classes, because they are the one doing the service, not to mention that an "imbagon build" is basically only reliant upon 2 core skills with 2 or 3 more support skills (which can vary a little bit) and so you have 3 free spots to fill in, and even the 3 that are "needed" aren't necessarilly set instone.

Rangers, necros, and monk IMO are the most versatile, with rangers being far and away the superior of those 3 classes. Armor and elemental resists alone make them so. I used to think monks were the top dog, but since playing my ranger,and a few other classes I se how limitted they are these days. They are actually better at solo gimmick builds than overall PvE. Unless you go straight healing or protection, which there are plenty of henchmen that can probably do a better job at than you and most of the live players. So a waste actually.

Ritualists are the anomoly. They are versatile too, but basically some sort of spirit spamming or healing build when it comes right down to it. It just depends on how you use what skills you have. But still no where near the options rangers or necros have. But in normal mode they are far and away right now (even better than rangers) at consistant and fast damage dealing with little to no downtime. Sure necros once they build an army or sit around and regen energy can do damage but ritualists and rangers are non stop, from group to group for the most part with almost zero downtime, especially if rangers are running all ranger skills and have a decent (11-12) expertise rating.

Same with dervishes, they can do a hell of a lot of damage (AOE as well) if you use your enchants and strips in a decent manner. Even if it is putting one on and stripping it off immediately (to give the mobs the debuff), with decent runes, and decent healing they are basically unstoppable even without a shield. And with their semi decent burst damage at the beginning of a fight they can get and hold aggro pretty well on multiple mobs also.

I know this is dragging on, but mesmers deserve alittle love. Almost a forgotten class, but they too aren't too bad, they are good/great at anti caster as well as anti melee, and can in fact do both at the same time. they surely make the shortest work of the caster mobs of any profession that I play. certainly don't woory too much about those Hardmode healers out healing the damage output of some professions and team builds, mesmers basically solo them with 2 or 3 skills. While you can lock your heroes on other targets. That is why I am surprised there hasn't been someone with a mesmer team build, because even tough they are seen as low quality heroes, they make a lot of the epic fights a hell of a lot easier, and against Duncan hardmode they are basically a must have.

Elementalists, simpley way too much time needed to cast, too many mobs with high elemental (regardless of magic) damage diminishing and resists. Elementalist were described as the profession that is supposed to be the highest damage dealer in the game, but right now they aren't in the top 5,(probably 7th) which isn't good in a game with only 10 professions.

This is all based on generic PvE stuff, as in main story lines, random quests, and run of the mill normal mode mobs. Obviously some classes will move up or down in hardmode as well as in other areas of certain campaigns.

But from what I can tell if you want a "challenge" then either elementalist or assassin would be the best option. And elementalist would be top choice because then you wouldn't be so tempted to run a promise build, but with an assassin you won't be getting any heroes all that soon so you'll be relying on henchies alittle longer than an ele maybe, unless you get rushed through and get to kamadan before the "normal" levels of 12 or 13.

YunSooJin · Jul 18, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Erm... do you know of the difference between PvP and PvE? Some of those were relevant to PvP only. But...

Massive recharge reduction ring any bells? Chains are only a major problem in PvP, in PvE if your going to be encountering blocking stances, you run Golden Fox/Wild Strike. The recharge reduction all round means you can really dish out damage. Don't need Critical Agility to do that, it just makes it stronger, vs foes with a reasonable amount of armour a Sin with a low recharge high +damage chain can out damage a Warrior even without Agility. Most HM foes you need prot no matter what class you're on if your running in first. Having 10-30 more AL doesn't matter much when your enemy is a level 28 Air spiker.

If you want extremely high damage, bring a Sin/Derv. If you want average damage and a little more survivability, bring Warrior. Even without PvE skills a Dagger sin can run Flurry no problem. Unless your running Dragon Slash there is no way you'll recharge your attack skills before the next foe, there goes your DPS.

Hey look its the winning (losing?) post.

FireWhale · Jul 18, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

What is this "major league" build of the assassin you are referring to? The build I usually run on my assassin is a golden phoenix MS build, and I don't believe it requires any other class.

As for my opinion, I like to do damage, so most of my choices are based on damage potential. I also base my experiences completely on HM-area foes.

Assassin (squishy but a proper MS build is ridiculous)>Ritualist (spirit spammers are the new flavor of the month. Having just dusted off my rit for Raisu today, I understand why)>Necro (hard to place due to their in-direct damage, but they definitely cause a lot of subtle damage)>warrior=mesmer>monk=ele>derv>ranger>parago n

Of course, this is solely based on my experiences. You don't have to agree with it, but I don't think my opinion is invalid :/

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 18, 2009, 10:04 AM // 10:04

I would say Ranger or Dervish.

To win PvE you need big damage over anything else and those simply cant deal as much of it as other classes. Not saying they are bad/have weak damage just not as much as other classes.

wiz12268 · Jul 18, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

What is this "major league" build of the assassin you are referring to? The build I usually run on my assassin is a golden phoenix MS build, and I don't believe it requires any other class.

As for my opinion, I like to do damage, so most of my choices are based on damage potential. I also base my experiences completely on HM-area foes.

Assassin (squishy but a proper MS build is ridiculous)>Ritualist (spirit spammers are the new flavor of the month. Having just dusted off my rit for Raisu today, I understand why)>Necro (hard to place due to their in-direct damage, but they definitely cause a lot of subtle damage)>warrior=mesmer>monk=ele>derv>ranger>parago n

Of course, this is solely based on my experiences. You don't have to agree with it, but I don't think my opinion is invalid :/

Yeah Moebius has some builds I guess, I was speaking more towards anything that surrounds a perma build, which has only 1 or 2 assassin based skills and the rest are hexes of some sort. And of course assassin's promise, but then again technically you don't need to be an asassin to run it I suppose. But it relies heavily on other professions skills as well.

It might all come down to playstyle also. I think rangers and dervishes do more than their fair share of damage, while some people don't think so. All depends I suppose.

It is also a little bit about suvivability, unless you want to eat consumeables all day dying a lot isn't going to make all that damage you do worth anything. Glass cannons can only do so much, either in tems of H/H teams as well as individual builds. Because not many classes with a 60% DP are goign to be all that effective simpley because they aren't going to survie long enough to do anything, and if they are always dying, but doing a ton of damage then it will all eventually catch up with them.

That's why I don't like either Assassins or Elementalists. They simpley die too much, even with gimmick builds, because they put too much pressure on support, which eventually dies as well, and they (even if you try to build up their survivibility) are eventually left alone or have weakned your H/H so much they don't last too long either.

And it also comes down to what classes use their own skills, PvE skills, or other profession skills to be "better". My rit and dervish have all rit and dervish skills, no PvE skills, no other prefession attributes. Don't need them. They have builds that have good synergy. I could obviously use some of the PvE skills or other prefessions skills, but it would probably take away from what I have going on them. My ranger could run all ranger skills, but I like to throw in some PvE skills. He isn't as locked into a specific mold as the otherrs, and my monk, well he has a little bit of everything, 2 or 3 monk skills, a couple mesmer skills and 3 PvE skills. My other classes have old builds I just keep on them because theystill work today, and I don't play them all that much except for Zaishen mmissions and bounties that are relatively quick and easy. But they can still all run the hard modes in most of those cases.

So there really isn't a "best" or "worst" profession, there really can't be. With the right support any profession is supposed to do well. They just ll can't have the same type of support. Maybe that is why we get so many differing opinions in this thing because everyone runs the same H/H on all their toons.

Windf0rce · Jul 19, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

That's why I don't like either Assassins or Elementalists. They simpley die too much, even with gimmick builds, because they put too much pressure on support, which eventually dies as well, and they (even if you try to build up their survivibility) are eventually left alone or have weakned your H/H so much they don't last too long either.

I don't think this is a fair comment on Assassins and Elementalists, it really depends on who you are playing with... If the Ele is the typical bad 'nuker' running 16 Fire on Hard Mode, yes he will draw aggro like a magnet, same goes for the Sin if he tries to tank instead of letting someone else (Warrior) hold aggro first.

In my guild we do vanquishes and 'high level PvE area' runs often (DoA, etc) and some of our most valuable players include a MS/DB Assassin and an Elementalist that is really good at spamming PvE skills.

I'm a Monk player myself, and I disagree with your comment above on how henchmen/heroes do better than human Monks at healing and protecting. I'd agree on Healing somewhat, because the AI may have better reflexes at redbarring, but not at protting. A well placed Protective Spirit or SoA is not uncommon from an experient human Monk, but the AI will usually just spam those on someone already dying and just run out of Energy. Henchies and heroes can get the job done, yes, but I'd take a good human Monk.

DokkyDok · Aug 04, 2009, 10:01 PM // 22:01

For me its the monk. Having to micro heroes while healing and protting is annoying, and they generally perform better (offensively) if you are attacking too.

Pocketmancer · Aug 05, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

I have played every main profession except But IMO from what I have seen in the years I have played this game currently the professions in order of strongest to weakest for "everyday" NORMAL mode PvE, would be...

Ranger
Ritualist
Paragon
Necro(never played one but versatility puts them here)
Monk
Dervish
Mesmer
Warrior (never played one so a guess)
Elementalist
Assassin

Years played does not mean you have actual experience with all of those classes. Your listing indicates it easily.

Warrior, Elementalist, Assassin, all should go to the top for normal mode PvE. Ranger and Mesmer reaches the bottom. Everything else in between.

Once it's hard mode, Warrior and Assassin stays at the top, Elementalist goes midway, Necro moves to the top, Paragon and Ritualist goes to the middle, everything else at the bottom.

Note that fun will not equal effective or efficient by my definitions.

Sharkinu · Aug 05, 2009, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DokkyDok

For me its the monk. Having to micro heroes while healing and protting is annoying, and they generally perform better (offensively) if you are attacking too.

Same for me, Monk is not the weakest, but the hardest to play (with H/H). If you keep your heroes on guard they wont attack untill you attack or they get attacked. Set on agressive teh will aggro everything when you will need careful pulling. Plus being a healer need to stay in the back line so you have to keep flagging them every 5 sec. Playing a healer/protector with humans is a little bit easier and less boring

Tenebrae · Aug 05, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Agree with Dokky , got a clan mate that told me exactly the same.

Cuilan · Aug 05, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

Once it's hard mode, Warrior and Assassin stays at the top, Elementalist goes midway, Necro moves to the top, Paragon and Ritualist goes to the middle, everything else at the bottom.

Really? Warrior over mesmers in hard mode? I would have placed warriors near the bottom for hard mode. Sure warriors may have a couple good AoE and tank builds, but they require someone really good to not wipe the team or to deal more than moderate to lackluster damage. o.O

the Puppeteer · Aug 05, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

Ranger
Ritualist
Paragon
Necro(never played one but versatility puts them here)
Monk
Dervish
Mesmer
Warrior (never played one so a guess)
Elementalist
Assassin

for NM eh? - the list gave me good laugh

I bolded the key part - most stuff on your list is a guess...

Snow Bunny · Aug 05, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

At this point, every class has a very strong gimmick that allows them to compete roughly with the other classes.

Monks are unique in that every group needs healing, and thus they're the generic fall back option, but every class is very capable of big damage.

I would say at this juncture that a mesmer's the biggest bitch to contend with because they're horribly weak until you get them leveled, grinded, and kit out with gear.

You can't think about class difficulty from a high-level standpoint, you have to think of it at the lower end. A SY-Dslasher warrior will be pretty easy to manage all the way from lvl1 to his obsidian-clad, super-hero accompanied alter ego, whereas the assassin in the beginning will be extremely weak and won't have nearly the payoff until it has max armor, pve and elite skills unlocked.

This discussion is rather pointless, mainly as each class is fairly powerful in their own regard. Warriors have strong aoe/single damage options with heavy armor, assassins have high damage, paragons have unrivaled party support, rits can go heavy damage or party support, dervishes have all sorts of high-damage gimmicks, rangers have interrupts and some damage options, eles have damage/support/healing/whatevertheywant, necros have infinite energy and broken abilities...it's only mesmers that have it slightly harder, and they get COP, even nerfed it's still good, so I have little sympathy.

makosi · Aug 05, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

I struggle most with Ranger in HM. Even with Prepared Shot and 14 Expertise, I still somehow struggle for energy. I'm too spammy.

Asura Scan, "I Am The Strongest!" and Triple Shot does nice damage but is costly, and Barrage is pretty flimsy... even with Splinter. I'm gonna mess around with some R/D Scythe stuff instead so I can go frontline with Escape and Zealous Sweep for energy.

Dervishes have great damage in HM (if you're doing it properly), however they're a tad squishy and Heart of Fury is a pain to keep casting; Pious Fury stips your Prot Spirit which you need as a 70al. The high prevalence of Enchantment removal in general discourages me from relying on Enchants too much but that's the nature of Dervishes. Kinda catch 22.

Tenebrae · Aug 06, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I struggle most with Ranger in HM. Even with Prepared Shot and 14 Expertise, I still somehow struggle for energy. I'm too spammy.

Well thats not Ranger class prob

. Ranged classes find it easier to pve , no one is saying that they are the best or the more efficient ones but , hardest ? hell no .

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Asura Scan, "I Am The Strongest!" and Triple Shot does nice damage but is costly, and Barrage is pretty flimsy... even with Splinter. I'm gonna mess around with some R/D Scythe stuff instead so I can go frontline with Escape and Zealous Sweep for energy.

Fun builds are for fun , not for efficiency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Dervishes have great damage in HM (if you're doing it properly), however they're a tad squishy and Heart of Fury is a pain to keep casting; Pious Fury stips your Prot Spirit which you need as a 70al. The high prevalence of Enchantment removal in general discourages me from relying on Enchants too much but that's the nature of Dervishes. Kinda catch 22.

Prevalence of ench ..... really ? i dont think so pal , thats why 600/smit and 55 chars roll on most GW zones but yes , maybe D's have some trouble with HM pve but dont think its an ench removal prob. Heavy ench remov areas are like ..... 5% ? maybe 10% ?

Staying with monk when it comes to pve .... done with ppl , is great , when they have to H/H .... pain.

gerlin · Aug 06, 2009, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Imo, it's monk. Well i it's about using heroes it is. I generally use melee professions to PvE (not farming) so thats my play style. With monks the only option you have besides healing is smiting or AP caller. Healing is just too much of a hassle more me, heroes do it better and faster, and as a smiter i can bring some support too.

All the rest are pretty easy to play with. Ranger, warrior, assassin, elementalist, paragon, ritualist and necromancer are the easier ones while the others might take a while to get the hang of. In HM it changes a lot, I think physical class are easiest but that may be because i prefer using attacks instead of spells (i've never been a fan of magic and stuff, close up smashing is my thing.)

Pocketmancer · Aug 06, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Really? Warrior over mesmers in hard mode? I would have placed warriors near the bottom for hard mode. Sure warriors may have a couple good AoE and tank builds, but they require someone really good to not wipe the team or to deal more than moderate to lackluster damage. o.O

Warriors have pretty insane single target DPS. See the Dragon Slash Warrior.
Warriors have pretty insane AoE KD. See Earth Shaker Warrior.
Warriors have pretty insane AoE damage. See Warrior's Endurance Scythe Warriors.
They're far from the bottom, and they're definitely above Mesmers.

Tank builds were trash and have always been trash. Nobody uses a tank build unless it's a part of a gimmick. This is because there is no real aggro or hate system in Guild Wars and you cannot redirect aggro as easily as you could like in other MMORPG's.

makosi · Aug 06, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Well thats not Ranger class prob

. Ranged classes find it easier to pve , no one is saying that they are the best or the more efficient ones but , hardest ? hell no .

Fun builds are for fun , not for efficiency.

Prevalence of ench ..... really ? i dont think so pal , thats why 600/smit and 55 chars roll on most GW zones but yes , maybe D's have some trouble with HM pve but dont think its an ench removal prob. Heavy ench remov areas are like ..... 5% ? maybe 10% ?

Staying with monk when it comes to pve .... done with ppl , is great , when they have to H/H .... pain.

You quoted and tried to criticize a lot of my stuff but it didn't really add up for me.

Enchantment removal is rife in HM. I had in mind the Destroyers of Thoughts who have Mirror of Disenchantment, Shatter Enchantment and Hex Eater Vortex. Then there's nonsense like Incubus' Soulrending Shriek, Dryders with Corrupt Enchantment, Skelks with Chilblains and Dwarves with Rending Aura. As a frontliner, they're gonna see the Dervish run in and strip him down unless he or she is using Vow of Silence (craptacular).

600/smite works because Spell Breaker keeps the tank's Enchantments protected. The point I was trying to make is that it is frustrating to spend the time and energy casting things like Heart of Fury for it to be removed seconds later. It eats in to your dps. Warriors, on the other hand, don't suffer like that because their profession and primary attribute is not centred around Enchantments.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 07, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

I'd like to mention that an offensive spirit spammer has a laughably easy time in PvE.

Make the spirits. Cast their buffs and a hex on enemy. Keep energy up with siphon, move them around every now and then with summon spirits.

And that's all there is to it.