Curse

Forgotton200 · Jun 17, 2009, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Go as Rit, 2 Rit heroes, your brother as rit and take 2 rit as well, 2 rit henchs. GL.

Squishy ftw · Jun 17, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

Go as Rit, 2 Rit heroes, your brother as rit and take 2 rit as well, 2 rit henchs. GL.

That's with or without abusing spirit's strength ?

Forgotton200 · Jun 17, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squishy ftw

That's with or without abusing spirit's strength ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

Myself and my brother are going to try a self imposed challenge now that we are pretty much done with our main characters now (not GWAMM, but all of PvE is beat).

Everyone claims "PvE is easy" and can be rolled with any class, so we want something more difficult and wanted to pick the weakest class(es) to finish PvE (including hard mode) with.

We'll mostly play 2 of us together with 6 heroes. We might add further handicaps, such as not learn any Elite or PvE skills, not use Necro Heroes or any Heroes at all, just H/H. Getting Legendary Survivor is a given, we'll delete any characters that die in the way, and we are not allowed to farm XP.

I was thinking Ritualist would be a pretty difficult class, as they are squishy and their primary attribute is very weak, giving basically no advantage over other classes.

Suggestions on classes and handicaps please. Either 2 different professions (that hopefully won't synergize well at all), or same profession for me and my brother.

OP is hardcore.

Hugh Manatee · Jun 17, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Rit with no Secondary skills or pve skills. hardcore. Spawning does almost nothing, it adds about 3 extra effects to any of the spirits that lose health on effect(like wanderlust or shelter) and makes them take 2-3 hits instead of 1-2 from foes(but they can still get 1-shotted by a strong nuke). It also adds like 1-4 seconds on most of the weapon spells. Their runes do boost their skills to certain breakpoints, but they're still just slightly stronger then other classes that use them.

About rangers, they have splinter+barrage nuking, or volley+splinter with BHA to shut out casters. They're vicious, tough, and can run alternative weapons, same as the sin(hammer, daggers, scythe ect) and have excellent defense. Also, it may be slow, but trapping is still very effective. They have their pets too, so a large group of rangers can have a petwall tank for them(the whole concept from one of the earliest 'canned builds', B/P SF and Tombs runs). Rangers are strong when used right, hardly weak at all.

Now if you want a challenge, maybe try beating the whole game with only traps and skills that support trapping....

Jeydra · Jun 17, 2009, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Monk is now strictly inferior to Ele at being a monk, but most people haven't noticed yet.

Ele and Ranger are both one-trick ponies, Ele at being a monk and Ranger at dazed.

Monks are not strictly inferior to Elementalists at being a Monk, they can be superior depending on area.

Dazed is available to all professions via Technobabble, which also happens to 1) not be elite and 2) not lock your primary profession.

@OP - if you want to make (normal) PvE hard, I'd suggest PuGGing all the way ... although it can get extremely frustrating if you do so. You can also try stuff like no PvE skills, no displaying titles, no heroes, etc.

Arad Lightbringer · Jun 17, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

I'm not going to go into the whole "Pve Analysis without PvE skills" debate because that seems retarded to me, but it possible to come up with a critscythe build that is functional without the use of PvE skills, similar to the Wounding Strike Sin which is used in PvP. Granted it is weak without Critical Agilty...but honestly I cannot fathom why anyone would want to "analyse" a class without it using its most powerful tool.

"Hey guys! Lets play a game of chess...and to make it interesting, you can't use your queen! Or your knights...or your bishops..ISNT THAT FUN?!"

Seeing as how the Original Poster came up with the notion of not using PvE skills, I only deemed it fair not to included them. Seeing as how you refuse to debate the effectiveness of the assassin without PvE skills (which further proves my point, by the way) and I really have no argument against the Assassin USING PvE skills, there really isn't a point in discussing any of this, now is there?

Furthermore, if a classes' most 'powerful tool' (in this case, Critical Agility) is a PvE only skill, I see that as a serious flaw to the design of the class.

Kendel · Jun 17, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

Furthermore, if a classes' most 'powerful tool' (in this case, Critical Agility) is a PvE only skill, I see that as a serious flaw to the design of the class.

Are you new to this game?

Assassins have always been a massively flawed profession.

No IAS.

Shadowsteps, i really don't need to say more in either mode.

Chaining.

Low armour for a frontline.

Exactly what a close range melee character doesn't need to be. In PvE, sitting around for 10-20 seconds and making only a single real attack each fight is a waste of a slot. They buffed the recharges and gave them way of the master. Critical Agility addressed the rest nicely, they got more armour and an IAS, 2 things that would COMPLETELY break PvP. It being a PvE only skill is absolutely meaningless. Critical Agility would've been nerfed so low it'd have to look up to see the old Ether Renewal if it was usable in PvP. Its still playable without it, it just helps alot.

Arad Lightbringer · Jun 17, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Are you new to this game?

Assassins have always been a massively flawed profession.

No IAS.

Shadowsteps, i really don't need to say more in either mode.

Chaining.

Low armour for a frontline.

Exactly what a close range melee character doesn't need to be. In PvE, sitting around for 10-20 seconds and making only a single real attack each fight is a waste of a slot. They buffed the recharges and gave them way of the master. Critical Agility addressed the rest nicely, they got more armour and an IAS, 2 things that would COMPLETELY break PvP. It being a PvE only skill is absolutely meaningless. Critical Agility would've been nerfed so low it'd have to look up to see the old Ether Renewal if it was usable in PvP. Its still playable without it, it just helps alot.

Let me get this straight, just so I know; I have been arguing the ENTIRE time that the Assassin is the weakest class, yes? I have been called stupid in a myriad of ways for thinking this by several people, yourself included. I said the Assassin was weak because it was squishy and because of its chain attacks, among other things. You argued against me, saying I was wrong and the assassin was great. Now, you just reaffirmed everything I said?

Good game.

Kendel · Jun 17, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

Let me get this straight, just so I know; I have been arguing the ENTIRE time that the Assassin is the weakest class, yes? I have been called stupid in a myriad of ways for thinking this by several people, yourself included. I said the Assassin was weak because it was squishy and because of its chain attacks, among other things. You argued against me, saying I was wrong and the assassin was great. Now, you just reaffirmed everything I said?

Good game.

Erm... do you know of the difference between PvP and PvE? Some of those were relevant to PvP only. But...

Massive recharge reduction ring any bells? Chains are only a major problem in PvP, in PvE if your going to be encountering blocking stances, you run Golden Fox/Wild Strike. The recharge reduction all round means you can really dish out damage. Don't need Critical Agility to do that, it just makes it stronger, vs foes with a reasonable amount of armour a Sin with a low recharge high +damage chain can out damage a Warrior even without Agility. Most HM foes you need prot no matter what class you're on if your running in first. Having 10-30 more AL doesn't matter much when your enemy is a level 28 Air spiker.

If you want extremely high damage, bring a Sin/Derv. If you want average damage and a little more survivability, bring Warrior. Even without PvE skills a Dagger sin can run Flurry no problem. Unless your running Dragon Slash there is no way you'll recharge your attack skills before the next foe, there goes your DPS.

Arad Lightbringer · Jun 18, 2009, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Erm... do you know of the difference between PvP and PvE? Some of those were relevant to PvP only. But...

Massive recharge reduction ring any bells? Chains are only a major problem in PvP, in PvE if your going to be encountering blocking stances, you run Golden Fox/Wild Strike. The recharge reduction all round means you can really dish out damage. Don't need Critical Agility to do that, it just makes it stronger, vs foes with a reasonable amount of armour a Sin with a low recharge high +damage chain can out damage a Warrior even without Agility. Most HM foes you need prot no matter what class you're on if your running in first. Having 10-30 more AL doesn't matter much when your enemy is a level 28 Air spiker.

If you want extremely high damage, bring a Sin/Derv. If you want average damage and a little more survivability, bring Warrior. Even without PvE skills a Dagger sin can run Flurry no problem. Unless your running Dragon Slash there is no way you'll recharge your attack skills before the next foe, there goes your DPS.

Obviously I misinterpreted your last post; I apologize- I'm not farmiliar with PvP (hate it with a passion) and therefore only put it in terms of PvE.

Speaking from experience in PvE, many of the chain attacks I personally encounter have a decent probability of rendering an Assassin useless for upwards of 5 seconds when circumstance disables the chain (i.e. blind, knockdown, enchantment removal, etc). Combined with the squishiness of the Assassin's armor, and the powerful spikes that inevitiably go along with Hard Mode, an Assassin can be reduced to pulp whilst still waiting for recharing skills.

Granted, these effects ARE circumstantial, however, when put in perspective with the other melee classes, the Dervish and Warrior, the freedom an Assassin has when playing in PvE is severely limited in comparison (that is to say, if, for example, a Dervish is interrupted, it still has free range to use whatever attack skill it wants. The Assassin cannot do this, due to the need of a lead attack, off-hand, etc). Therefore, despite its high DPS (when its chain DOES work), the Assassin is a weaker class to play in PvE when put against the others.

Kendel · Jun 18, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

Obviously I misinterpreted your last post; I apologize- I'm not farmiliar with PvP (hate it with a passion) and therefore only put it in terms of PvE.

Speaking from experience in PvE, many of the chain attacks I personally encounter have a decent probability of rendering an Assassin useless for upwards of 5 seconds when circumstance disables the chain (i.e. blind, knockdown, enchantment removal, etc). Combined with the squishiness of the Assassin's armor, and the powerful spikes that inevitiably go along with Hard Mode, an Assassin can be reduced to pulp whilst still waiting for recharing skills.

Granted, these effects ARE circumstantial, however, when put in perspective with the other melee classes, the Dervish and Warrior, the freedom an Assassin has when playing in PvE is severely limited in comparison (that is to say, if, for example, a Dervish is interrupted, it still has free range to use whatever attack skill it wants. The Assassin cannot do this, due to the need of a lead attack, off-hand, etc). Therefore, despite its high DPS (when its chain DOES work), the Assassin is a weaker class to play in PvE when put against the others.

Well yes but running any main combo with a recharge of above 4 seconds is pretty dumb, at least if your in an area you know you may have problems. I'm sure lots of Sins just think "zomg Moebius/Blossom rocks" and take a bar straight off wiki consisting of those 2 and GPS for a quick off-hand and have no regard for anything in the area. Meaning they get blocked or int'd or Moebius doesn't recharge and they get stuck waiting for GPS to recharge. Unsuspecting/Fox are ideal lead choices, Fang/Wild are ideal offhand choices, depending on area, thats 4 seconds, if 1 of those gets int'd sure you lose the damage, much what sort of int are we talking about here? 99% of the time an int on an sins attack skill is Clumsiness. That sort of thing messes up everyone and will almost always, without fail, hit your attack skills and never your auto attacks, no matter what profession you run, just to annoy you.

Assuming you even run Dagger. Scythe is still very powerful even without Crit Agility, Wounding Strike is a spammable deep wound and Mystic/Eremite's have set attack times.

Its not as if Dervs/Warriors don't have specific shutdowns. Ok a Derv without his enchantments can still dish out damage but theres a good chance its still less than a Crit Sin without enchantments. A high critical rate makes up for the lack of 13-16 Scythe, especially on a weapon with such a wide damage range and your rate of return for energy generally makes skills far more spammable. But a warrior without attack skills isn't much better. His attack skills are where he gets his area hits from, sure his critical hit is better than a Dagger crit but its still less likely to occur than the Sins which makes up for some of it.

At any rate theres no way its weaker than the Ritualist... which aside from a select few skills is pretty useless.

Chthon · Jun 18, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Monks are not strictly inferior to Elementalists at being a Monk, they can be superior depending on area.

Areas where I'd prefer a monk to a ele are very few and far between.

Quote:

Dazed is available to all professions via Technobabble, which also happens to 1) not be elite and 2) not lock your primary profession.

I love my AP+Technobabble, but it's not on the same level as BHA (or CShot for that matter) for serious disruption. BHA (1) works on bosses, which are usually the real threat you bring interruption for anyway, (2) has 100% uptime, and (3) can be fired from beyond aggro range, assuring that the battle opens with your priority target already dazed. Now, if all I was facing was garbage mobs with annoying but relatively weak spells to interrupt, I'd leave the ranger at home and leave it to technobabble; but I'm going to bring a ranger any time I know I'm going to face a caster I actually fear.

Jeydra · Jun 18, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Good points, but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Now, if all I was facing was garbage mobs with annoying but relatively weak spells to interrupt, I'd leave the ranger at home and leave it to technobabble; but I'm going to bring a ranger any time I know I'm going to face a caster I actually fear.

Or you could micro Prot Spirit and tank the caster yourself ...

Ironically Correct · Jun 27, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Go as a ritualist

Squishy armor
Low damage output (HM)
Long recharge
Not a lot of health
Not many good builds
Spirits die.... FAST (HM, seeing as they are the lowest armor/health)
Have to recast

I read the thread and this seems like the general view on rits.

RadaArashi · Jun 28, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

I wonder how the opinion on Ritualist has changed with the recent buff it got. >_>

I Write Sins · Jun 28, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

gee i love how everyone is hating on the dervishes...
if u relly think they got less damage out put than a warrior tthheenn
im sorry to say yourdoingitwrong...

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironically Correct

Go as a ritualist

Squishy armor
Low damage output (HM)
Long recharge
Not a lot of health
Not many good builds
Spirits die.... FAST (HM, seeing as they are the lowest armor/health)
Have to recast

I read the thread and this seems like the general view on rits.

lulz.... he said "not a lot of health"
uhm.... all classes have the same amount of hp ??
im pretty sure... idk
i could be wrong....
-_-;

anyways...
no pve skills or elite skills
im gonna haffta say
hardest class to pve with would be ~~
i wanna say paragon tbh..
maybe imma phail paragorn..
but imo rits are too easy ~
esp goin with survivor..
shelter/union; wait til they're almost recharged; pull a small group
by the time they go down ur putting them back up
idk..
pve is too easy ~.~

faraaz · Jun 28, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

I wonder how the opinion on Ritualist has changed with the recent buff it got. >_>

Not a lot. People say the new Arkfenway build is supposed to be great...I tried it myself and wasnt impressed. For a player Rit, the broken mechanics are still broken, they're just more dependent on Spawning Power. Not to mention, Spirits are still nerfed, they're just more tolerable to run because of the reduction in casting times. Its a welcome change of course, not whinging about the buff not being enough, just saying that the core of the problem with the ritualist is still a problem.

snaek · Jun 28, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

i'd recommend 8 warrior teams or 8 ranger teams or 8 dervish teams, etc, etc.

not necessarily weak/hard, but its fun and challenging in a different way (except of course if you run 8 necro teams or sumptin...that'd be hella easy)

Charlotte the Harlot · Jul 04, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

ranger is among the best classes with out pve skills with sy and OP damage skills disruption becomes less important and the rangers damage falls behind but with out them they are one of the best. B/P was among the stronger builds before pve skills. I would say mes is the hardest to do with out any pve skills considering almost every mes build I see now completely revolves around them.

Ensign · Jul 05, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Rit is the weakest class, followed by Derv. Both are strictly inferior to other options for their roles.

I agree with the second part. A Dervish may be inferior in many ways to an Assassin with a scythe, but is still ridiculously strong and probably superior to Mesmer or Ranger as a general purpose character.

Rit is a high floor, low ceiling class, and with all the broken toys in PvE the low ceiling is a killer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Monk is now strictly inferior to Ele at being a monk, but most people haven't noticed yet.

Monks aren't even close to strictly inferior to Eles as Monks. Monks have 3 main jobs - one, to keep people from exploding (Big Prot / Infuse); two, dealing with long term pressure (Small Prot / HoT / Party Heal); three, cleaning (Condition / Hex removal).

Ether Renewal bars are typically unfairly strong at the first job; they're mediocre at the second (Infuse spam, marginal party heals), and pretty awful at the third. As long as Monks play up those other jobs they're still very valuable; they should be tending towards RC, Divert, and similar bars when there's an ER Ele in the group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Ele and Ranger are both one-trick ponies

Eles do an ok job at abusing generic PvE skills; they aren't quite in the league of Necros at that though. Necromancer:Elementalist::Assassin

ervish, or something like that.