Curse

Chthon · Jun 16, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Rit is the weakest class, followed by Derv. Both are strictly inferior to other options for their roles.

Monk is now strictly inferior to Ele at being a monk, but most people haven't noticed yet.

Ele and Ranger are both one-trick ponies, Ele at being a monk and Ranger at dazed.

The remaining classes are all capable of strong builds.

FaiLeD · Jun 16, 2009, 03:51 AM // 03:51

What about paragon when did they become better than dervish and ranger unless we all just forgot about them. And don't even say that they have impagon cuz that boring as crap. So yea I think paragon would be a tough class because they have not the greatest elites, and you won't be useing pve skills. Also personaly I think there damage is crap. Support is decent and can't do anything else except dance. Not to mention how hard it will be to get into parties especialy on HM. Altho paragons have a good primary attribute.

If you don't like paragon then it would probly be ritulaist. I've beating a lot of guild wars with a ritualist fairly easy and one build I'm using doesn't even need the elite and it kicks donkey. Personaly the only bad thing about ritualist is that spawning power is pretty useless and they can usually be better as a N/Rt.

But good luck with what ever you choose. ;-)

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 16, 2009, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Weakest - Ritualist, Dervish, Ranger (in that order)
Hardest - active prot monk in PvE, mesmer using no PvE skills, Assassin not using MS/DB, or scythe builds (or any crit weapon builds. I mean legit attack chains)

Fuzzie · Jun 16, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Ritualist worst. Perma sin best.

Arad Lightbringer · Jun 16, 2009, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Rit is the weakest class, followed by Derv. Both are strictly inferior to other options for their roles.

Monk is now strictly inferior to Ele at being a monk, but most people haven't noticed yet.

Ele and Ranger are both one-trick ponies, Ele at being a monk and Ranger at dazed.

The remaining classes are all capable of strong builds.

Monks are inferior to elementalists at healing? In what way? The special attribute of an elementalist, energy storage, gives you more energy yes, but any monk that knows what (s)he's doing will tell you that energy doesnt = win. I AVIDLY play my monk, with my other characters basically around to bring in some extra coin, and as of now, I can honestly say I have little to no trouble keeping a party alive with the energy I have. To be candid, I'd take the extra ~30 health per spell of divine favor over 20-30 extra energy any day.

But on to the matter at hand; To be honest, I think Anet did a fairly decent job at keeping all of the classes even in terms of skill to play. However, never having played as a ritualist or a paragon in HM, I couldn't accurately tell you if they would be as balanced. Out of the classes I HAVE played though, I find the assassin to be one of the most challenging. Fairly squishy to begin with, the assassin is, in my own personal opinion, inept at killing multiple enemies in quick succession.

With the exception of any perma-sin builds (and the odd Moebius or Assassin's Promise setup), the assassin's need to use dagger attacks in a certain order renders quick kills nearly impossible, as the assassin in question would have to wait for the recharge of the first skill to begin killing again. Assassins have their place in PvE, but to me it doesnt seem to lie with the killing of mobs that is demanded.

ElnoreVarda · Jun 16, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

Monks are inferior to elementalists at healing? In what way?

Ether renewal says hi! Imagine your prot spirit and spirit bond cost 0 energy and woh healed for twice as much, with no recharge and 1/4 cast time. Its free too, btw.

Suggestions handicaps:

Never change builds, neither you or your heroes.
Use max X skills on skillbar instead of 8.
Play a full healing wammo.
Play when drunk/high irl.
PUG all missons.

Kendel · Jun 16, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Ritualists have next to no real use in HM. There are spirit builds that can kick out some great DPS but its so easy to kill them. Weapon spells? Yeah like 1 or 2 extra seconds is gonna matter on the longer duration ones, assuming you bother speccing Spawning. The offensive/healing side is just sub par to a real monk, alot of reliance on spirits or items.

Arad... just what the hell are you smoking? Theres a variety of short recharge chains around for dagger sins, mostly involving Death Blossom, assuming you even bother with daggers... Scythe is far better in general. Thanks to Critical Agility they are easily 1 of the strongest melee classes in terms of DPS and Defences gives them very good tanking capabilities (within reason).

Owik Gall · Jun 16, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Try completing your goals as a devote Mesmer, without using any secondary skills, or pve skills. I find that even with the elites it's a challenge to be a mes because you have to be crucial on your actions. Interrupting is an example. Although energy denial isn't like that, however that leaves you open for all sources of attacks, namely melee. (Try that in PvP and you'll be murdered by warriors and sins.) Pure Mesmers are challenging to be because most of the skills requires perfect timing, and those that don't leave you open for a deadly dog piling. Be a Pure Mesmer survivor, and you got a leet goal accomplished.

Faure · Jun 16, 2009, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

To poasiods, Faure, Rivenheart...clearly you did not read my post:

Allow me to requote, for your reading pleasure, in bold.

If you speak any other native language I can translate.

Btw, for everyone saying rangers are pro interrupters etc...imo knockdown is a better interrupt. =]

Did it on my warrior...not too hard if you take a bonder with you everywhere you go.

But mobs that can't be KD can still be interrupted by rangers =).
Imo rangers are best at interrupting. So let me rephrase the point of my post to make sure you understand as well why i disagree with the part you just bolded:
Rangers are THE BEST OPTION (see i countered your exact sentence there) if you want to interrupt/shutdown casters. They don't rely on spelltargets (mesmer interrupts) or being able to KD (for instance the Dolyak Masters).

And i'm quite curious how you keep a bonder useful in ench-removal heavy areas. I agree that surviving without farming isn't that hard. You just don't need to be lazy or unpatient.

@ the healing ele part; I can imagine it outheals monks, but i still prefer a monk over an ele at anytime. Ele-monks are relying (too) strongly on enchantments for my liking.

faraaz · Jun 16, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faure

But mobs that can't be KD can still be interrupted by rangers =).

So can mesmers

Quote:

THE BEST OPTION

agree to disagree?

Quote:

And i'm quite curious how you keep a bonder useful in ench-removal heavy areas.

Intelligent aggro'ing? Microing prots? Idk...just not being a bad player I guess.

Jarus · Jun 16, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

I never really had any more difficulty playing my Rit compared to playing a Warrior or Elementalist. I like variety, and I would say that the Rit is more of a jack-of-all-trades than the Ranger. Healer, Prot, spike, physical damage, or heck even minions, the Rit can do it.

The only thing is that they're not quite as specialized in any of these things, and Spawning Power could really use a buff.

I would submit that the 'hardest' class to play in PVE would probably be the Assassin, providing you don't run a Perma-sin. If you're trying for Legendary Survivor as a 'sin, then GOOD LUCK to ya.

Ranger/Paragon would probably be the most likely to get Legendary Survivor outside of Fronis farming.

Arad Lightbringer · Jun 16, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Ritualists have next to no real use in HM. There are spirit builds that can kick out some great DPS but its so easy to kill them. Weapon spells? Yeah like 1 or 2 extra seconds is gonna matter on the longer duration ones, assuming you bother speccing Spawning. The offensive/healing side is just sub par to a real monk, alot of reliance on spirits or items.

Arad... just what the hell are you smoking? Theres a variety of short recharge chains around for dagger sins, mostly involving Death Blossom, assuming you even bother with daggers... Scythe is far better in general. Thanks to Critical Agility they are easily 1 of the strongest melee classes in terms of DPS and Defences gives them very good tanking capabilities (within reason).

Yeah, I forgot to include Death Blossom...that means that there are, what? 4 Assassin elites that are actually useful? Maybe 5? Sounds like a one-trick pony to me. And seeing as how Critical Agility is a PvE only skill, I wasn't including it.

Kendel · Jun 16, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

Yeah, I forgot to include Death Blossom...that means that there are, what? 4 Assassin elites that are actually useful? Maybe 5? Sounds like a one-trick pony to me. And seeing as how Critical Agility is a PvE only skill, I wasn't including it.

Wtf is the point in debating PvE prowess when you ignore PvE skills, seriously why? Ok, non-profession specific skills like Norn/Vanguard etc and the really overpowered ones like Cry of Pain can be excluded since, unlike Critical Agility, you don't base entire builds off it because its that overpowered (and any class can use it).

The assassin is nowhere near weak in PvE. As for a limited number of builds, whats it matter? If the builds you have let you not only play in but dominate a good portion of PvE even in HM it doesn't matter how little you have to choose from. Hell just yesterday i took my Crit Scythe Sin into UW HM with 3 Heroes and had very few problems clearing the Chambers and finishing my Vengeful Aatxe quest. Not many classes can kick out enough damage to be able to do something like that.

Kiluna · Jun 16, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

Monks are inferior to elementalists at healing? In what way? The special attribute of an elementalist, energy storage, gives you more energy yes, but any monk that knows what (s)he's doing will tell you that energy doesnt = win. I AVIDLY play my monk, with my other characters basically around to bring in some extra coin, and as of now, I can honestly say I have little to no trouble keeping a party alive with the energy I have. To be candid, I'd take the extra ~30 health per spell of divine favor over 20-30 extra energy any day.

He's talking about in this way:
Youtube 1
Youtube 2

RadaArashi · Jun 16, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Well let's see, the definitive no's from a PvE point of view would be Warrior, Necro, Assassin, Ranger, Paragon and Monk.

Warrior and Assassins are the best frontline DPS, Necromancers are ez mode basically with minions and all those fire-and-forget hexes, Rangers have great survability, Paragons are called Imbagons for a reason and Monk well, everybody wants you.

So we're left with Mesmer, Dervish and Ritualist. I'll rule Mesmers out here because, while they're a class that requires skill to be good at in both PvE and PvP, they're pretty damn good with PvE only skills and get builds like [Cry of Pain][Ether Nightmare] and [Signet of Illusions][Arcane Echo][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support].

Dervishes are not all bad, they're decent frontliners but they tend to be eclipsed by Assassins and Warriors because they don't dish out as much damage. So that leaves us with Ritualists, the Channeling line is pretty weak damage wise, Spirit spam is sort of decent but nothing extraordinary and for Restoration they're inferior to say N/Rt and E/Rt.

Arad Lightbringer · Jun 17, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Wtf is the point in debating PvE prowess when you ignore PvE skills, seriously why? Ok, non-profession specific skills like Norn/Vanguard etc and the really overpowered ones like Cry of Pain can be excluded since, unlike Critical Agility, you don't base entire builds off it because its that overpowered (and any class can use it).

The assassin is nowhere near weak in PvE. As for a limited number of builds, whats it matter? If the builds you have let you not only play in but dominate a good portion of PvE even in HM it doesn't matter how little you have to choose from. Hell just yesterday i took my Crit Scythe Sin into UW HM with 3 Heroes and had very few problems clearing the Chambers and finishing my Vengeful Aatxe quest. Not many classes can kick out enough damage to be able to do something like that.

I wasn't including PvE skills for the implied notion of using them as a handicap. Critical Agility is, in my own personal opinion, a very powerful PvE only skill, and is the bread and butter of many assassin builds. It isn't necessarily the most PROMINENT skill in a build, as Cry of Pain is, but without it, many builds are rendered inefficient.

When a class uses a limited number of builds, it seems boring to say the least. What's the fun in dominating PvE with a mainstream build? Isn't that why many people are tired of it? Due to its limited supply of ingenuity, combined with less than desirable chain attacks, I personally believe the assassin would be the 'weakest' class of PvE (again, Ritualists and Paragons excluded).

faraaz · Jun 17, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

I personally believe the assassin would be the 'weakest' class of PvE (again, Ritualists and Paragons excluded).

Critscythe says hi

Kendel · Jun 17, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

I wasn't including PvE skills for the implied notion of using them as a handicap. Critical Agility is, in my own personal opinion, a very powerful PvE only skill, and is the bread and butter of many assassin builds. It isn't necessarily the most PROMINENT skill in a build, as Cry of Pain is, but without it, many builds are rendered inefficient

When a class uses a limited number of builds, it seems boring to say the least. What's the fun in dominating PvE with a mainstream build? Isn't that why many people are tired of it? Due to its limited supply of ingenuity, combined with less than desirable chain attacks, I personally believe the assassin would be the 'weakest' class of PvE (again, Ritualists and Paragons excluded).

So? Sin is still hardly weak. The OP may ask for handicaps, it doesn't ask for your opinions on how varied the builds available are. The hardest to get Survivor on is clearly going to be Assassin or Dervish, mainly because its easy for accidents to happen when your on the front line. Not being able to run 30 different builds has absolutely no effect on this.

Arad Lightbringer · Jun 17, 2009, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Critscythe says hi

Not sure if you read my original posts, but I already mentioned I was talking about classes WITHOUT PvE only skills. Seeing as how most Critscythe builds use 3 PvE skills to function properly, they WEREN'T included in my analysis.

Quote:

So? Sin is still hardly weak. The OP may ask for handicaps, it doesn't ask for your opinions on how varied the builds available are. The hardest to get Survivor on is clearly going to be Assassin or Dervish, mainly because its easy for accidents to happen when your on the front line. Not being able to run 30 different builds has absolutely no effect on this.

My analysis took handicaps into account. If they were not included, it would have been very different. My interpretation of what the original poster wanted was to find a class that would be challenging to play when not using a mainstream build (hence the handicaps on PvE skills). This requires a need to change builds and, frankly, the assassin can't keep up with that.

I completely agree with the fact that getting Survivor on an Assassin would be more difficult than many other classes. I already mentioned they were more squishy than most melee characters.

faraaz · Jun 17, 2009, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arad Lightbringer

Not sure if you read my original posts, but I already mentioned I was talking about classes WITHOUT PvE only skills. Seeing as how most Critscythe builds use 3 PvE skills to function properly, they WEREN'T included in my analysis.

I'm not going to go into the whole "Pve Analysis without PvE skills" debate because that seems retarded to me, but it possible to come up with a critscythe build that is functional without the use of PvE skills, similar to the Wounding Strike Sin which is used in PvP. Granted it is weak without Critical Agilty...but honestly I cannot fathom why anyone would want to "analyse" a class without it using its most powerful tool.

"Hey guys! Lets play a game of chess...and to make it interesting, you can't use your queen! Or your knights...or your bishops..ISNT THAT FUN?!"