Curse

AtomicMew · Aug 11, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Alright guys I haven't been here for 1 year and I'm just learning about this build now. Now don't get me wrong, I did a lot farming and experimented with a lot of builds but this stands out on it's own.

Farming builds have existed in Guild Wars for as long as it existed and Arenanet has been trying a lot of things to stop them.

One of the major things it did to stop farming from driving up prices is to decrease the amount of gold that drops when your alone but NOT the amount of items. So instead of increasing prices, farming would decrease the prices. In theory this would mean no farming would ever need to be nerfed because they would only drive prices down.

That was the theory and it's still pretty much true today but this build introduces something no other had down before: Speed which has been discussed but there's another thing I find alarming.

None of the old groups are present yet they are still just as effective as they used to be.

Tombs used to be ruled by Barrage/Pet groups now it's all assassins.

UW had a ton of builds to farm different areas and the strongest was 55 monks and SS nercos farming wastes, and now it's all assassins.

I'm not sure about the other farming areas but my guess is they'll also be all assassins.

That's what I don't like about this build before they used to be a farming build for nearly every class but they are all obsolete compared to this assassin build which has taken over everywhere. That's why it's probably going to get nerfed eventually.

That's a fair argument. I wouldn't mind if they buffed SF to be easily maintainable on other primaries, or even gave other primaries similar skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

So if they nerf SF you would lose all faith in A-net and quit? So the simple thoughts of A-Net nerfing your favourite overpowered skill would makes you quit. Then I suggest you quit already. Also that argument about creating a bigger gap between elitist and casual player is ridiculous. Right now the gap between them keeps increasing because of SF, if they nerf it, it will at least prevent the gap from increasing every days? Are you just stupid?

What the hell are you talking about? The only reason there already ISN'T a huge gap is because there exists a farm that isn't insanely boring, and that is UWSC and FOWSC and to a lesser extent, VSF.

If you are not using SF, that is your choice. You are a casual player. You're likely not going to be able to max all your titles. There are other farms that don't require SF, but from what I see, most of them are boring. So why do them when you can do UWSC which isn't brain dead boring?

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Once I clearly remember reading an article about how some online casino botched their code, with the result that everyone who played when the errorneous code was running made big bucks. Do you think it's fair to tell the casino, "only a few people have gotten rich from the code, not everyone! Please don't take down the code!"

This is so ridiculous you'd be brain-dead to try it. I really don't understand why you're advancing a similar argument here.

Are you honestly comparing this to a real life scenario with real money? Real money != guild wars gold. There is an unlimited supply of GW gold. No one loses gold when you pick it up from a monster drop. If everyone farms out an area, then prices of items will drop to such a level that it actually isn't any more profitable than other areas. That is exactly what we've seen with UWSC. It isn't any more profitable than other farms.

On the other hand, suddenly stopping the supply WILL have devastating and sudden consequences on ecto prices, high end weapon prices and the distribution of wealth.

upier · Aug 11, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm arguing that it's too fast. What do you say to that?

By the way I don't mean to boast, but I rarely farm - don't have a Perma as well - and yet have well over 2 million GW gold in cash, ZKeys, Ectos and Ambraces, and I have no idea what to do with it.

Sure it takes massive farming. But you don't have to have it, you can go without if you want. To tack on to the above, my account's over 4 years old and I have 15 maxed titles. Protector, Guardian, one Cartographer title (just one), the EotN titles, SS, LB. I don't need the others. Sure I'm working towards them (as in, I open any Locked chests I find, but I don't go chest running). But I don't need them and I don't care if I don't have them.

Here's something else as well. If you want these titles, you need to farm. But you don't need to Perma. Where is Shadow Form entering into this equation? Is Shadow Form the only way to earn GW gold?

I've bolded some parts.
You are arguing that SF needs to be trashed because it's too fast.
And what I am arguing is that it's this speed that makes SF in touch with the end-game demands of PvE.
Yes, there are additional options. But just as you don't want to see them get trashed, because they aren't fast enough, that's the EXACT same reason why I don't care for them. They aren't fast enough to be in touch with the moronic PvE ideas.

You're just looking at the glass being half full, and I, bored with the crap A.Net keeps throwing out, am looking at the glass as half empty.
That's why I don't mind SF being in the game, despite everyone and their mother being able to see how bad it is. It feels better for the game, unless of course we see a fix for the issue that is causing something as broken as SF to be actually considered as "not so bad".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Everyone wants the reward. I've only very rarely done something just for the thrill of it - one such example for example is H/H'ing Eternal Grove HM. It's fun, it's fast-paced, and every time I do it I celebrate how I can do something so many other people have trouble with. But almost every other thing I do I do for the reward. Take away the end chest from Duncan HM and I doubt I'll ever step into the dungeon again. Does that make me a farmer?

Sorry, I made it clearer in Riverside that rewards still plays a role, even to a "player". But the question is - do you do the task at hand on your ele EVEN if there are better class options? Or do you switch to THAT option?
As long as the "player" is able to complete certain objectives, it matter much less if the best option is used. Other factors play a much bigger role here.
That's why people come here and bitch that they aren't accepted into farming teams despite their oh-so-perfect build being completely equal to what the team is looking for.
Farming is more of all or nothing kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

There are advantages for playing the game as opposed to farming. The obvious one is that it's less tedious. The problem as I see it right now is that farming is so much faster than playing that the speed factor outweighs everything else.

Absolutely!
My guess is that a player would rather do something fun if that would still lead to being able to achieve certain goals (as in titles), rather than something he hates.
The problem is that the way current goals are defined, things that you and me consider fun do not lead to achieving those goals.
Or, better yet, not fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Tell me, if ANet removes Shadow Form, what is the farmer going to do?

1. stay in the same place with a new cookie
2. move onto a different place with SF if it's still usable or with a new cookie
3. quit

As farmers will tell you, they won't move onto playing.

vamp08 · Aug 11, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Without going into a rant on how ridiculouse maintainable, legal invincibility in the game is; the fact boils down to this:

-SF'er are more than likely safe with the skill, since the live team is jokingly small, they now have a reason to feed us excuses like "we dont have the resources to re-test the skill".

Guild Wars is past this arguement, the prospect for us anti-SF'er is a dream. The nerf will never come. Just sit back in shock as a single skill dominates the game; but snicker in GW2 when no such skill exists as you brows the forums reading "BRING BACK THE SHADOWFORM SKILL!" and "Remember the good days of SF farming? Bring it back ANET!" threads.

*(btw, I am an anti-SF advocate, and yes my 2nd best character is an A/E)*

Rhamia Darigaz · Aug 11, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

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Originally Posted by Simath

Yes sir, I most certainly was [right]. I argued [ursan] should be nerfed, and guess what. [it was.]

while i agree that ursan should have been nerfed, that it was is not proof that it should have been, only that anet agrees with you. there was in fact no "right" side of the ursan argument, only conflicting opinions about game design. the same is true for this argument about shadow form.
tl;dr: while i agree with your apparent opinions of shadow form and pre-nerf ursan, i don't agree that you can call those opinions "right".

Targren · Aug 11, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

What exactly is the difference between going to to TOA and not finding a balanced group because theres only SF farmers and TOA looking like Nolani Academy exactly? In both case, a casual player won't find a group.

The difference to the casual player? None. But there's no effect on the casual players now. If there were as many of them as you claim, they would have no trouble finding a group with each other, even AMONG the masses of UWSCers and guild groups. There is no law that says they have to stop looking for a PUG just because some asshat says "LOL Randomway noob GTFO."

The "casual" players are not interested in elite areas. That's why they're "casual." They don't want to spend two hours DOING elite areas, much less waiting around for two hours hoping they find a group to even start.

The only ones who might be effected are the Anti-farming crusaders who, unfortunately, have the exact same problem: they QQ because they claim the UWSC keeps them from finding pugs when, in fact, there just aren't enough of them who want to do the area. If there were, they could easily:

a) ignore the farmers and build their pugs, since there are "so many" of them
b) join a guild that plays "balanced"/randomway/BYOB/whatever (and don't give me that crap about "social" guilds. I don't qq that Anet should remove Rank because I can't HA since I opt to be in a PvE guild)
c) "Unofficially" designate a district/locale for pugging, much as Drazach Speed Clear goes to Europe-French D1.

Unfortunately, they've tried doing none of these things. Their objections are that they don't like the way OTHER people are playing, whether or not it affects them (and it does not), and they want to cry about it.

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Not to mention that it's easy to imagine that there would be more casual players in toa to form balanced groups if the SF farmers weren't there.

See above. It's also easy to imagine pink unicorn ponies delivering me scotch and naked women nightly. Doesn't mean it has f***all to do with any possibility of reality.

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Also, they [Anet] listen to the wrong crowd? You serious? If you are implying that they should listen to the SF farmers then I bet they would have to buff SF by removing the damage reduced to 33%. Let's bring back the old Ursan while were at it.

The SFers aren't the ones complaining. The Anti-SF whiners are, and yes, they are a vocal minority, claiming numbers they demonstrably don't have in order to browbeat Anet into submission to get their way, for no good reason other than they don't like it.

kanuks · Aug 11, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

The difference to the casual player? None. But there's no effect on the casual players now. If there were as many of them as you claim, they would have no trouble finding a group with each other, even AMONG the masses of UWSCers and guild groups. There is no law that says they have to stop looking for a PUG just because some asshat says "LOL Randomway noob GTFO."

The "casual" players are not interested in elite areas. That's why they're "casual." They don't want to spend two hours DOING elite areas, much less waiting around for two hours hoping they find a group to even start.

The only ones who might be effected are the Anti-farming crusaders who, unfortunately, have the exact same problem: they QQ because they claim the UWSC keeps them from finding pugs when, in fact, there just aren't enough of them who want to do the area. If there were, they could easily:

a) ignore the farmers and build their pugs, since there are "so many" of them
b) join a guild that plays "balanced"/randomway/BYOB/whatever (and don't give me that crap about "social" guilds. I don't qq that Anet should remove Rank because I can't HA since I opt to be in a PvE guild)
c) "Unofficially" designate a district/locale for pugging, much as Drazach Speed Clear goes to Europe-French D1.

Unfortunately, they've tried doing none of these things. Their objections are that they don't like the way OTHER people are playing, whether or not it affects them (and it does not), and they want to cry about it.

See above. It's also easy to imagine pink unicorn ponies delivering me scotch and naked women nightly. Doesn't mean it has fsckall to do with any possibility of reality.

The SFers aren't the ones complaining. The Anti-SF whiners are, and yes, they are a vocal minority, claiming numbers they demonstrably don't have in order to browbeat Anet into submission to get their way, for no good reason other than they don't like it.

Of course que SF users aren't the ones complaining since it's not nerfed yet. What the hell do you expect from them? Complain about a skills they love to abuse? Make some more sense please.

Also, regarding the rest of your posts : Yes without SF finding a decent pug group would be a lot easier. There is many SF users that farms with it because it's easy as hell. If it's nerfed, many of them will go back to pugs and such. Only the very hardcore farmers (youngest players or the ones with no lifes) will abuse of the other farming builds like ob flesh. The others will play guild wars normally and stop deflating the prices of everything by overfarming elite areas in 20 mins when it was intended to take almost 2 hours.

Anet wanted GW to be a team game, having a group using a diversity of classes. I'm pretty sure that when they see groups of 7 assassins with almost all the same skills,abusing a broken skills and running an elite area faster than any balanced group, they facepalm. They nerfed the skill twice but it didn't stop the abuse. The fact they did it twice is a good proof that they are bothered with it. If they wants to make it maintainable permanently, then they should be making the user deal ZERO damages no matter what. You get invincibility but you lose the ability to do any damage. That would be the perfect nerf. The dervish skill that prevents spell casting on self also prevent the dervish to cast spells, why would'nt the same logic apply to SF? It would still be way better than that dervish skill.

JONO51 · Aug 11, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that this is the game's end-game content.
While it is completely optional - given the age of the game and the fact we are not getting new content, sooner or later players that stick with this game have just these things to do.
And if the "quit the game if you don't like SF, because GW obviously isn't the game for you" isn't an appropriate reply to the subject of SF, suggesting to players to not do titles ALSO can not be an appropriate reply.

If SF is trashed, we will still be left with a game where shitloads of money, that can NOT be obtained through normal play, are needed. And just as we had the jump from Ursan to SF, a new cookie is BOUND to show up and then we'll bitch about that again for a year.

Just fix the reason why such massive amounts of cash are even needed in this game. Just remove or fix the end-game content that requires actions that break the game (even further).

But like I said, I don't see that happening. It's kinda the reason why we are getting GW2.
It's a broken game. With or without SF.
Better the devil you know.

In response to the first section, the players who stick with the game and are left with the heavy grind titles are left with a simple choice really, stop playing, because chances are by now they've played through anything that can be justified as content, or they can grind, knowing full well what they're getting into. I don't feel theres a need to introduce even more broken things just to try and bring these titles into what could be classed as content rather than grind.

The quit due to SF/quit because you don't want to do the grind titles are two entirely different things imo. What position would you rather have players in: "I've done all the playable titles, I don't want to do the grind titles, so I'll stop playing", or "I'd like to do the elite area's, but theres no real chance to get a group outside of SF which I don't want to use, so I'm pretty much going to have to quit".

The grind titles are always going to be a problem even if they made them into a quick 20hour maxing. All that does is mean theres one more box to tick then nothing to do and the player quits. Yes the grind titles are poor to be honest, but I don't think using shadow form to make them less broken is justifiable, considering it has other effects on different groups of players, rather than those whose interest is to max the grind titles.

---

In response to the second part, yes a new cookie cuter build will turn up, but if it turns up in a non-elite area it will be better in general for players, because for elite area's aren't something you can realistically h/h, unlike the non elite area's. Yes, you can borrow someones heroes and do FoW, urgoz too. For the deep, you're going to be hard pressed to do it, despite being able to glitch all your heroes into room 2 and avoiding the whole split stuff, simply because of the knockdown gimmick at kanaxai mainly. The underworld has the problem of the 4h quest, which I don't think I've heard of someone doing 1man/6heroes without considerable difficulty.

At least that way, ToA will become an area for likeminded players to turn up and find others to go get their statues etc, rather than being met by farming groups.

Warrior Babes · Aug 12, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

The "game is so old that the only thing that remains is farming" argument is stupid because if there is one MMO RPG that makes farming obsolete it's GW. If farming is now the only thing you do in GW then I suggest you go play a mmorpg that actually rewards farmers with better items rather than useless better looking skins. Farmers deflates the prices way too much. Because of them, every good drops that a casual player might find is worth nothing.

why would i go play another game if i like 'Farming' in gw?
u think i farm for money?
who cares about those items.. u think they will ever go up in price again? and u have still weps worth 500e, thats NOT a week of uwsc
and who says that a casual* player deserves that wep more then that dude that farmed it?

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If nerfing Shadow Form simply means everyone switches to Obsidian Flesh Elementalists and are just as effective, why are you opposed to nerfing Shadow Form?

like said, doesnt say its easyer?
what all anti-sf ppl say in this thread is just qq about weps going down, or that they cant find a party to do something.. this is not gone change
and did i ever say i was against the nerf of SF?

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Let 'em nerf it. It will just prove that they listen to the wrong crowd, and when all the farmers move on, they'll be able to have a good laugh when the Anti-SF crusaders still can't get a pug, and UW looks like Noelani Academy on a saturday night.

If Shadow Form dies UW will probably die too. But I'll bet you anything I can get a Thommis HM PuG on a ZQ day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

The difference to the casual player? None. But there's no effect on the casual players now. If there were as many of them as you claim, they would have no trouble finding a group with each other, even AMONG the masses of UWSCers and guild groups. There is no law that says they have to stop looking for a PUG just because some asshat says "LOL Randomway noob GTFO."

Asked and answered. There's no point forming groups when you can just hitch a ride on a farm run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Are you honestly comparing this to a real life scenario with real money? Real money != guild wars gold. There is an unlimited supply of GW gold. No one loses gold when you pick it up from a monster drop. If everyone farms out an area, then prices of items will drop to such a level that it actually isn't any more profitable than other areas. That is exactly what we've seen with UWSC. It isn't any more profitable than other farms.

On the other hand, suddenly stopping the supply WILL have devastating and sudden consequences on ecto prices, high end weapon prices and the distribution of wealth.

OK, so you don't like that example. Let's try something just as ridiculous. Suppose one day an incredible bug surfaces, such that you can turn in the Cathedral of Flames reward as many times as you want, without having to redo the dungeon (i.e. the game doesn't detect that it's already given you the reward). Obviously the people who're online while the bug is running will make big bucks, like a million an hour or probably more. Now are you going to tell ANet "please don't fix the bug, only the few people who happened to be online have earned money, not everyone has, give them a chance"?

Is it just me or is that totally ridiculous?

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Originally Posted by upier

And what I am arguing is that it's this speed that makes SF in touch with the end-game demands of PvE.

You are assuming that "end-game demands of PvE" should be available to everyone who wants to put in some effort, not a lot of it. Justify that. Why should it be?

And answer the slippery slope argument. Is a farm that yields 1 ecto / hour balanced? What about 10 ectos / hour? 20 ectos / hour? Where do you draw the line?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sorry, I made it clearer in Riverside that rewards still plays a role, even to a "player". But the question is - do you do the task at hand on your ele EVEN if there are better class options? Or do you switch to THAT option?
As long as the "player" is able to complete certain objectives, it matter much less if the best option is used. Other factors play a much bigger role here.
That's why people come here and bitch that they aren't accepted into farming teams despite their oh-so-perfect build being completely equal to what the team is looking for.
Farming is more of all or nothing kind of thing.

I do it on my Elementalist even if there are better class options because I only have one PvE character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

1. stay in the same place with a new cookie
2. move onto a different place with SF if it's still usable or with a new cookie
3. quit

As farmers will tell you, they won't move onto playing.

So you're saying farmers will stop doing ZQs? I don't believe that.

Here's something else as well. So what if they move on and not start playing? With no Shadow Form (and 600 / Smite), you can suddenly get PuGs for Thommis HM. You can suddenly get PuGs for CoF HM. You don't have to deal with the omnipresent question right now: What's the point? The farmers were never in the playing pool, but by removing the farmers, all the other people who hitch a ride on the farming run are suddenly released.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior_Babes

like said, doesnt say its easyer?
what all anti-sf ppl say in this thread is just qq about weps going down, or that they cant find a party to do something.. this is not gone change
and did i ever say i was against the nerf of SF?

If it's not easier then by all means do it.

Yes it's going to change. If Shadow Form is nerfed, farming is slower and prices will inevitably go up. With farming slower, doing things via balanced will be comparable in terms of speed.

I'll stress again. With VSF being as effective as it is right now, what are the chances of getting another player to do Thommis HM?

Targren · Aug 12, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Of course que SF users aren't the ones complaining since it's not nerfed yet. What the hell do you expect from them? Complain about a skills they love to abuse? Make some more sense please.

Read for context and look at the post I was replying to, and it will make sense. Troll less, please.

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Also, regarding the rest of your posts : Yes without SF finding a decent pug group would be a lot easier. There is many SF users that farms with it because it's easy as hell. If it's nerfed, many of them will go back to pugs and such. Only the very hardcore farmers (youngest players or the ones with no lifes) will abuse of the other farming builds like ob flesh. The others will play guild wars normally and stop deflating the prices of everything by overfarming elite areas in 20 mins when it was intended to take almost 2 hours.

You're deluding yourself. The ones taking UWSC pugs ARE the "hardcore"(ignoring your puerile subdefinition thereof), considering that the frustrations of pugs are present tenfold with UWSC pugs. Without SF, they will either find something else to use, or they will go do something else, and ToA will be a ghost town. They will NOT go back to pugging with random morons.

Quote:

Anet wanted GW to be a team game, having a group using a diversity of classes. I'm pretty sure that when they see groups of 7 assassins with almost all the same skills,abusing a broken skills and running an elite area faster than any balanced group, they facepalm. They nerfed the skill twice but it didn't stop the abuse. The fact they did it twice is a good proof that they are bothered with it. If they wants to make it maintainable permanently, then they should be making the user deal ZERO damages no matter what. You get invincibility but you lose the ability to do any damage. That would be the perfect nerf. The dervish skill that prevents spell casting on self also prevent the dervish to cast spells, why would'nt the same logic apply to SF? It would still be way better than that dervish skill.

Recent posts by Linsey seem to disagree with your assessment, but I forgot... which one has more credibility regarding Anet's thought processes; a Developer from Anet, or a grammatically-challenged "random dude on the internet?"

I always get those two mixed up...

angmar_nite · Aug 12, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

There are three solid reasons why SF absolutely needs to be nerfed and why the arguments of the SFers are utter fallicies.

Just because the majority of the people enjoy something doesn't make it good for the game-if all basketballs came with homing beacons to the net, does it make basketball easier for everyone else? sure. It also makes it an inferior game.

The concept of these 2 hour treks is long gone. In the days of attempting to steel wall the deep where it would take an hour thirty I understand. But when the UW can be done in 50 minutes with a balanced build by any team - quicker with cons, then the need for speed is no longer an excuse.

Finally, the argument that it does not affect me is completely untrue. I care about the devaluing of stuff I spent more time getting, true, but asides from that there's still the fact that i can no longer pug with an elementalist of all things. Without SF the UW won't die, people will always want the ecto. They just want it at an unheathy speed. It's not assassins and necromancers fighting. Its an invincible with giant DPS running with a damagebot for vale. Are there melee skills? critical strikes? minions? blood magic? no.

reaper with no name · Aug 12, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Wow. So many pages in just two days. Anyone remember this post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I can prove that this is the case for the majority of SF users. Watch.

Hey, SF sins! If SF is really not overpowered and hideously broken and it's okay for people to have skills like this, then you wouldn't mind supporting the implementation of the skills from this post, would you? After all, if it's really ok for you sins to have this, then it should be ok for everyone to have, right?

The best part is, some of those skills are actually less powerful than SF! Take the necro one, for example; enchantment stripping kills it. Not so of SF, since there are very very few PBAoE or touch enchantment stripping skills. The derv one can be interrupted. The paragon one can be shut down with Well of Silence. And then there's the fact that most of those skills don't prevent you from being blinded or weakened or otherwise hindered from killing things.

Only one person who supports SF not being nerfed responded to this, and he agreed that everyone should get their own SF-type skill.

So to everyone else who wants SF to stay as-is, what do you have to say for yourselves? Are we to assume that you're saying godmode is okay for sins but not for everyone else? Or is your own greed and self-interest overriding your judgement?

See, this is the interesting thing. If SF is really okay, then there's no reason that every class shouldn't have their own equivalent. It's been well-established that SF blows everything else out of the water. So, if it's really ok for the game, then to support SF and not support everyone else getting it is the utmost hypocrisy.

Of course, what would this lead to? Oh yeah, Ursan. What happened there? It practically destroyed the game by pigeonholing everyone into a single build if they wanted to be optimal, much like SF is doing with sins (it would do the same for everyone else, but since they can't do it, they don't even have the option of being optimal; they're forced to suck).

So, then:

If Sins get permaSF, it's not fair to everyone else.

If everyone gets permaSF, it's just like Ursan, which we all know was hideously broken and was destroying all build variety in the game.

Either way, SF is bad for the game. In it's current (perma) form it is seemingly unsalvagable, because it is by it's very nature superior to everything else in the game, and therefore destroys any semblance of balance the game might have. Like it or not, this game was designed for everyone to have fun, not just the sins. Sucking is not fun. Knowing that there are other people out there with godmode that your character can't have is not fun. Being useless is not fun. And unfortunately, that's exactly what SF makes everyone else: useless.

If permaSF was intended to be in the game, then there wouldn't be warriors or monks or elementalists, or indeed any class except the assassin. There would also be no elites other than SF. Because SF is so powerful that no one in his right mind would ever use another build if they wanted to be optimal. SF removes challenge, the meaning of rewards, it removes grouping, and for all intents and purposes it removes classes from play in many areas. It is just plain bad for the game.

AtomicMew · Aug 12, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

OK, so you don't like that example. Let's try something just as ridiculous. Suppose one day an incredible bug surfaces, such that you can turn in the Cathedral of Flames reward as many times as you want, without having to redo the dungeon (i.e. the game doesn't detect that it's already given you the reward). Obviously the people who're online while the bug is running will make big bucks, like a million an hour or probably more. Now are you going to tell ANet "please don't fix the bug, only the few people who happened to be online have earned money, not everyone has, give them a chance"?

Is it just me or is that totally ridiculous?

First of all, what you are describing is against the EULA and will get you banned, so straight away it's not analogous.

But I'll take the argument one step further: let's assume that what you described was actually through some legit mechanism. If A.net only allowed it for a few hours, then YES, it would create just incredible stupendous stratification of wealth. That would be unfair by the very definition of unfair.

Note that this is basically what you are suggestion by nerfing UWSC, only on a different time scale, because UWSC isn't as wild as the analogy you put forth.

At this point, A.net basically needs to revert. If they can't revert, then YES, I do believe they need to keep the exploit open.

If A.net did leave it open for a long period of time, the market would adapt. Yes, a few people will get rich initially by trading in gold for items before gold became significantly devalued. Eventually, gold would become worthless and the market would move on to a different currency, like Stone of Jordans. At this point, it wouldn't matter if A.net nerfed the infinite quest reward thing, since everyone already has as much gold as they could hold. Gold would very, very slowly start holding value again.

Note that the above is not even close to the here and now. Ectos and high-end UWSC items are still worth quite a bit.

Furthermore, ectos will ALWAYS be worth quite a bit for the remainder of the game's life. Why? Because ecto sinks and gold sinks are enough to compensate. Here, your analogy differs.

kanuks · Aug 12, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Read for context and look at the post I was replying to, and it will make sense. Troll less, please.

You're deluding yourself. The ones taking UWSC pugs ARE the "hardcore"(ignoring your puerile subdefinition thereof), considering that the frustrations of pugs are present tenfold with UWSC pugs. Without SF, they will either find something else to use, or they will go do something else, and ToA will be a ghost town. They will NOT go back to pugging with random morons.

Recent posts by Linsey seem to disagree with your assessment, but I forgot... which one has more credibility regarding Anet's thought processes; a Developer from Anet, or a grammatically-challenged "random dude on the internet?"

I always get those two mixed up...

Your points are ridiculous. Nice try at countering my arguments. Also regarding my poor grammar, english is not my primary language and I bet you that you can't write a secondary language as good as me.

Also, calling the casual players "Random morons" doesn't makes you any smarter than them. You think you are good because you use SF? You think only the best players can use it? You think that because of that, SF should not be nerfed, since only the "top super elite players" are able to use SF correctly? You're so wrong. Even a newbie can run it.

Don't act like you are superior to other players because you abuse of a broken skill. What exactly is the difference between a group of 8 players using 6 ursans and a group of 8 players using 7 SFers? Don't you think that the skill is abused at least a little? The nerf is inevitable and you look bitter about it. It will be so entertaining to come on these forums and see all the whiners complaining about having to play the game normally again. That'll be comdey gold.

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

But I'll take the argument one step further: let's assume that what you described was actually through some legit mechanism. If A.net only allowed it for a few hours, then YES, it would create just incredible stupendous stratification of wealth. That would be unfair by the very definition of unfair.

Whether or not it is unfair is insignificant compared to the real problem: do you think the bug should be fixed?

If your answer is no, then our basic viewpoints are so far apart it's pointless to discuss it.

I also think you'll attract a lot of ridicule as someone who thinks, "but I haven't gotten rich from UWSC yet, let me get rich from it before you nerf", because that would be the obvious thing to infer from what you've written.

PS: The fallout from such a bug becoming a "permanent" feature of the game will be so huge, I doubt Guild Wars will survive it. After all, with gold useless, what is the point of doing almost anything in PvE anymore? Almost all quest rewards give gold, or something you can buy with gold, so why bother?

kanuks · Aug 12, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

First of all, what you are describing is against the EULA and will get you banned, so straight away it's not analogous.

But I'll take the argument one step further: let's assume that what you described was actually through some legit mechanism. If A.net only allowed it for a few hours, then YES, it would create just incredible stupendous stratification of wealth. That would be unfair by the very definition of unfair.

Note that this is basically what you are suggestion by nerfing UWSC, only on a different time scale, because UWSC isn't as wild as the analogy you put forth.

At this point, A.net basically needs to revert. If they can't revert, then YES, I do believe they need to keep the exploit open.

If A.net did leave it open for a long period of time, the market would adapt. Yes, a few people will get rich initially by trading in gold for items before gold became significantly devalued. Eventually, gold would become worthless and the market would move on to a different currency, like Stone of Jordans. At this point, it wouldn't matter if A.net nerfed the infinite quest reward thing, since everyone already has as much gold as they could hold. Gold would very, very slowly start holding value again.

Note that the above is not even close to the here and now. Ectos and high-end UWSC items are still worth quite a bit.

Furthermore, ectos will ALWAYS be worth quite a bit for the remainder of the game's life. Why? Because ecto sinks and gold sinks are enough to compensate. Here, your analogy differs.

So basically you're saying that SF should not be nerfed because the market will eventually adapt and stabilises itself? Oh yeah that's a good philosophy. Then why did A-Net nerf Ursan? So you think that because some peoples are getting very rich using SF that if it gets nerfed then the wealth gap would be bigger? Doesn't that mean that whatever kind of abuse occurs, it should never be nerfed? Also, wouldn't the gap keep increasing for the ones that never abused SF if it doesn't get nerfed?

Simath · Aug 12, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

There so many levels of fail in this thread it is amazing. I did not know understanding game mechanics was so hard for so many.

kanuks · Aug 12, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

First of all, what you are describing is against the EULA and will get you banned, so straight away it's not analogous.

But I'll take the argument one step further: let's assume that what you described was actually through some legit mechanism. If A.net only allowed it for a few hours, then YES, it would create just incredible stupendous stratification of wealth. That would be unfair by the very definition of unfair.

Note that this is basically what you are suggestion by nerfing UWSC, only on a different time scale, because UWSC isn't as wild as the analogy you put forth.

At this point, A.net basically needs to revert. If they can't revert, then YES, I do believe they need to keep the exploit open.

If A.net did leave it open for a long period of time, the market would adapt. Yes, a few people will get rich initially by trading in gold for items before gold became significantly devalued. Eventually, gold would become worthless and the market would move on to a different currency, like Stone of Jordans. At this point, it wouldn't matter if A.net nerfed the infinite quest reward thing, since everyone already has as much gold as they could hold. Gold would very, very slowly start holding value again.

Note that the above is not even close to the here and now. Ectos and high-end UWSC items are still worth quite a bit.

Furthermore, ectos will ALWAYS be worth quite a bit for the remainder of the game's life. Why? Because ecto sinks and gold sinks are enough to compensate. Here, your analogy differs.

Using stone of jordans as an example is ridiculous because D2's economy was the most pathetic economy of any games ever. When an economy rely on a very rare item that was duped with a hack to the point it became very common then it's easy to realise the economy in question Fails with a capital F.

Bloody Dominator · Aug 12, 2009, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

ideas and stuff

Ur right, every class should have its own SF, if SF doesnt get nerfed. Would be fair to everyone. But ofcourse there would be more abuse, so that might be not so good, but u wouldn't here anyone complaining (well not me anyways

).

Now ive said this, u all need to stop arguing. its just rediculous now, u all keep repeating the same things over and over

Barrage · Aug 12, 2009, 05:52 PM // 17:52

If they nerf shadow form, I welcome it with open arms, and I really only play sin O.o, if they give us more options and the like, (what they did with the recent update) it would be perfect. Sure we can't farm as well as before, but at least we aren't breaking the game in half with a sickening crack.