Curse

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that farming completely took over PvE and we are pretty much unable to play the game for any other reason than maximizing our profit.

Verily. We play to maximize profit. But look at VSF for example. You spend maybe 5 minutes to put together a team, and then clear Thommis HM with minimal difficulty after ... maybe another 5 minutes.

Against that, you could put together a full team of 8 human players with all the most powerful, arguably imbalanced PvE skills like Save Yourselves! and Ether Renewal. You'd clear Thommis HM with no difficulty alright. But you will take longer than 5 minutes. A lot longer than 5 minutes. What gives?

Why should VSF be so much faster than anything else you can do, and requiring so much less effort? Why should 600 / smite be able to clear CoF faster with just one source of damage than another team utilizing 6 different damage sources? I believe that farming should be possible, but anyone farming is aiming to maximize drops, not to maximize kill speed. If someone 600 / smites CoF and earns 10k gold from his accompanying "passengers", well and good, but he should do it slower than another person doing CoF with 7 other players who are actually wading into the fight.

An example of a balanced farm run: the E/Me Sandstorm + Earthquake + Aftershock build to farm Ectos off Smite Crawlers in the UW. Can you do the run faster with 8 players? Yes you can, for obvious reasons. But you get less Ectos per player, which is why you go it solo.
An example of an imbalanced farm run: VSF. Properly executed this is by far the fastest way to clear Thommis HM. It has enough redundancy to be faster even with 6 players instead of 8, for example.

Shadow Form is the cornerstone of a lot of farming runs, so it is the automatic target for nerfs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Except for the bolded part, which is in complete contradiction with everything else you posted in this quoted part, that's kinda exactly what I said.

So you agree that it is impossible to ignore the fact that a superior, easier to assemble build exists?

Aldric · Aug 10, 2009, 12:28 PM // 12:28

I'm for either nerfing SF into the stone age or nerfing the elite areas so that SF users get reamed hard.

I have no problem with people earning oodles of cash or having the shinyest epeen items but i find it very sad that the supposed Elitest areas in the game are run in 20 mins because of 1 very bad skill mechanic.

These areas are supposed to be the most difficult to complete and they should take a bit of preparation and a couple of hours to complete.If you cannot manage that then frankly tough luck , you have no divine right to have easy access to every single area in the game and neither should there be a mechanic that allows you to face mash your keyboard while invincible to clear them.

FWIW I am not being elitist about it, i have not done most of the elite areas as of yet but when my guildies get around to it we will do, without SF

Shasgaliel · Aug 10, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

all those SF, 55, 600/smite discussions just play on my nerves. I would not touch SF instead I would put a mob of 4 aatxes accompanied by 5 dying nighthmares at the entry (spawning point) of the area. If they survive they can farm...

Targren · Aug 10, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

FWIW I am not being elitist about it, i have not done most of the elite areas as of yet but when my guildies get around to it we will do, without SF

That's a good attitude, honestly. But then what's your problem with the ones who do use SF? If you're going to get a guildie group to do it, why even bother worrying about failpugs?

upier · Aug 10, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Verily. We play to maximize profit. But look at VSF for example. You spend maybe 5 minutes to put together a team, and then clear Thommis HM with minimal difficulty after ... maybe another 5 minutes.

Against that, you could put together a full team of 8 human players with all the most powerful, arguably imbalanced PvE skills like Save Yourselves! and Ether Renewal. You'd clear Thommis HM with no difficulty alright. But you will take longer than 5 minutes. A lot longer than 5 minutes. What gives?

Why should VSF be so much faster than anything else you can do, and requiring so much less effort? Why should 600 / smite be able to clear CoF faster with just one source of damage than another team utilizing 6 different damage sources? I believe that farming should be possible, but anyone farming is aiming to maximize drops, not to maximize kill speed. If someone 600 / smites CoF and earns 10k gold from his accompanying "passengers", well and good, but he should do it slower than another person doing CoF with 7 other players who are actually wading into the fight.

An example of a balanced farm run: the E/Me Sandstorm + Earthquake + Aftershock build to farm Ectos off Smite Crawlers in the UW. Can you do the run faster with 8 players? Yes you can, for obvious reasons. But you get less Ectos per player, which is why you go it solo.
An example of an imbalanced farm run: VSF. Properly executed this is by far the fastest way to clear Thommis HM. It has enough redundancy to be faster even with 6 players instead of 8, for example.

Shadow Form is the cornerstone of a lot of farming runs, so it is the automatic target for nerfs.

Like I said, I can not argue with the speed argument.
Still, I am willing to look past it because it's this speed that enables to counter some crap that was put into this game. There are certain things in this game that demand a LOT of money and time. And the normal speed of gaining money/or other things isn't sufficient.
So this improved speed helps negate the failure of the above mentioned out of touch with reality crap that A.Net put into this game.
Tone down some of this crap so that it will be achievable by normal play and the crutch function of farming is no more. The problem is that I don't see this happening.
I don't see A.Net lowering the max level for Luxon. I don't see them lowering Lucky/Unlucky. Chests. Zpoints. ....
And that's why I'd rather have this stupid crutch in the game.

This isn't game theory and what is good for Game X.
This is just looking realistically at GW that we have now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So you agree that it is impossible to ignore the fact that a superior, easier to assemble build exists?

Like I said - if you are farming that area - then it's impossible to ignore that. And you don't want to ignore it! It doesn't matter if you don't like playing SF. You WILL play it because you put maximizing your profit above all else. You don't care that you aren't playing your super cute warrior. And you don't care that you can't bring your all time favourite skills.
You care about getting as much money as fast as possible.

If you are "playing" it though - then like I also said - it's very much possible to ignore it. What you can't ignore though is that there aren't many people like you. But if you nerf SF and unless spirit spamming becomes the best option, the spammer that wants to "play" Thomy will still be shouting into thin air.
The guy will still be able to ignore the best option, but still won't be able to ignore that nobody wants to "play" with him.
So this obviously isn't a SF (or Ursan, or whatever will come after SF) problem.
It's a game problem.

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Still, I am willing to look past it because it's this speed that enables to counter some crap that was put into this game. There are certain things in this game that demand a LOT of money and time. And the normal speed of gaining money/or other things isn't sufficient.
So this improved speed helps negate the failure of the above mentioned out of touch with reality crap that A.Net put into this game.
Tone down some of this crap so that it will be achievable by normal play and the crutch function of farming is no more. The problem is that I don't see this happening.
I don't see A.Net lowering the max level for Luxon. I don't see them lowering Lucky/Unlucky. Chests. Zpoints. ....
And that's why I'd rather have this stupid crutch in the game.

Is your argument to not nerf SF, "SF lets you reach all these max titles quicker"?

No offense but I think that's a really weak argument. Let's accept that maxing all these stuff is crap to begin with - I don't agree with that statement, but you proposed it and let's accept it. Now ask the obvious question: do you think it's a good idea to meet crap with more crap? I don't.

What's more, grind in GW is a lot less significant than other MMOs. You do not have to grind higher levels, or to grind more powerful weapons. What do you need to grind that could affect you? Luxon, Kurz, Lightbringer, Sunspear, EotN title tracks, etc. Not all that important, and they've gotten a lot easier to max with update after update making it easier. You get to, what, R6 Norn just completing the campaign? Also, even without maxing all that you are still plenty effective.

What's even more, the places with most Permas - VSF, UWSC, etc - have nothing to do with maxing those titles. Do you think people do VSF to max Deldrimor, or to farm Voltaic Spears?

I cannot believe your argument that removing this "crutch" would also mean less farming. If everyone could just walk to the nearest merchant and buy a set of Obsidian armor for 500 gold, then yeah there would be no more farming. But there would also be no game. Agree? I certainly think so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you are "playing" it though - then like I also said - it's very much possible to ignore it. What you can't ignore though is that there aren't many people like you. But if you nerf SF and unless spirit spamming becomes the best option, the spammer that wants to "play" Thomy will still be shouting into thin air.
The guy will still be able to ignore the best option, but still won't be able to ignore that nobody wants to "play" with him.
So this obviously isn't a SF (or Ursan, or whatever will come after SF) problem.
It's a game problem.

If SF is nerfed, the guy going "Spirit Spammer LF Thommis HM" will have a much easier time getting a group, especially during ZQ days (which is otherwise the only reason to do Thommis HM). It doesn't have to be the "best" option. Spirit spamming falls into the broad class of damage builds, and just about any mix of damage builds works. So long as he has a good build and / or a good attitude, I'd pick him up. If you're unconvinced, think about this from the viewpoint of the team leader.

You're looking to form a team with firm defense and enough offense to overpower the Stone Summit in the dungeon. The dungeon's fairly difficult as far as PvE goes, but certainly easy enough to finish with H/H. So why get more humans? Because more humans means more heroes, and / or more overpowered PvE skills, as well as more intelligence in a fight (e.g. you won't have someone kite forwards instead of backwards). In this situation would you care if the Spirit Spammer is less than ideal? He's still better than henchmen. Even if there are lots of people going "LFG" you're better off sticking with a good Spirit Spammer than slowly filtering through everyone asking to see their bars.

You will have a much easier time getting a human team to do Thommis HM without Shadow Form than with it. You can't ignore Shadow Form. Like it or not, so long as Shadow Form exists, the rest of the PvE world has to work around it, not ignore it.

Aldric · Aug 10, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

That's a good attitude, honestly. But then what's your problem with the ones who do use SF? If you're going to get a guildie group to do it, why even bother worrying about failpugs?

I just think it makes a mockery of having an "elite" area. In my view they are no longer elite areas , they are just Anet designed mechanism abuse farms.

upier · Aug 10, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Is your argument to not nerf SF, "SF lets you reach all these max titles quicker"?

No offense but I think that's a really weak argument. Let's accept that maxing all these stuff is crap to begin with - I don't agree with that statement, but you proposed it and let's accept it. Now ask the obvious question: do you think it's a good idea to meet crap with more crap? I don't.

What's more, grind in GW is a lot less significant than other MMOs. You do not have to grind higher levels, or to grind more powerful weapons. What do you need to grind that could affect you? Luxon, Kurz, Lightbringer, Sunspear, EotN title tracks, etc. Not all that important, and they've gotten a lot easier to max with update after update making it easier. You get to, what, R6 Norn just completing the campaign? Also, even without maxing all that you are still plenty effective.

What's even more, the places with most Permas - VSF, UWSC, etc - have nothing to do with maxing those titles. Do you think people do VSF to max Deldrimor, or to farm Voltaic Spears?

I cannot believe your argument that removing this "crutch" would also mean less farming. If everyone could just walk to the nearest merchant and buy a set of Obsidian armor for 500 gold, then yeah there would be no more farming. But there would also be no game. Agree? I certainly think so.

Is generally adding crap to counter crap a good idea?
No. Absolutely not.
Is adding a fast way of making money to be able to max Lucky, a title that takes 4 years of AFKing the Rings OR demands massive amounts of keys - an amount that isn't obtainable though normal play - a bad idea?
No, I currently don't believe that it is.
Considering that there are ... what ... 7 or 8 PvE areas in the whole game where a player can obtain Luxon points and the titles maxes at 10 mil - is having a way where you can obtain those points much faster a bad idea?
I don't believe it is.
Being able to open 10k chests faster?
Have an easier way of obtaining 10k sweet points?

Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.

(If on the other hand they decide to fix these issues, nuke it away!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If SF is nerfed, the guy going "Spirit Spammer LF Thommis HM" will have a much easier time getting a group, especially during ZQ days (which is otherwise the only reason to do Thommis HM). It doesn't have to be the "best" option. Spirit spamming falls into the broad class of damage builds, and just about any mix of damage builds works. So long as he has a good build and / or a good attitude, I'd pick him up. If you're unconvinced, think about this from the viewpoint of the team leader.

You're looking to form a team with firm defense and enough offense to overpower the Stone Summit in the dungeon. The dungeon's fairly difficult as far as PvE goes, but certainly easy enough to finish with H/H. So why get more humans? Because more humans means more heroes, and / or more overpowered PvE skills, as well as more intelligence in a fight (e.g. you won't have someone kite forwards instead of backwards). In this situation would you care if the Spirit Spammer is less than ideal? He's still better than henchmen. Even if there are lots of people going "LFG" you're better off sticking with a good Spirit Spammer than slowly filtering through everyone asking to see their bars.

You will have a much easier time getting a human team to do Thommis HM without Shadow Form than with it. You can't ignore Shadow Form. Like it or not, so long as Shadow Form exists, the rest of the PvE world has to work around it, not ignore it.

Why is it so hard to understand that "farmers" won't become "players". If spirit spam will be part of the farming cookie, then the guy will get into farming teams. If spirit spam won't be part of the farming cookie, the guy will only be able to play with teams that "play" that area.
The same way that he is able to get into "playing" teams now.

kanuks · Aug 10, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Is generally adding crap to counter crap a good idea?
No. Absolutely not.
Is adding a fast way of making money to be able to max Lucky, a title that takes 4 years of AFKing the Rings OR demands massive amounts of keys - an amount that isn't obtainable though normal play - a bad idea?
No, I currently don't believe that it is.
Considering that there are ... what ... 7 or 8 PvE areas in the whole game where a player can obtain Luxon points and the titles maxes at 10 mil - is having a way where you can obtain those points much faster a bad idea?
I don't believe it is.
Being able to open 10k chests faster?
Have an easier way of obtaining 10k sweet points?

Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.

(If on the other hand they decide to fix these issues, nuke it away!)

Why is it so hard to understand that "farmers" won't become "players". If spirit spam will be part of the farming cookie, then the guy will get into farming teams. If spirit spam won't be part of the farming cookie, the guy will only be able to play with teams that "play" that area.
The same way that he is able to get into "playing" teams now.

Your whole "Farmers" versus "Players" point is absolutely retarded. So because you guys are just "farmers" then the broken skills should not be nerfed? You find it normal that UW can be cleared in 20-30 mins? You really do? "Farmers" wants those nice skins but aren't willing to spend the time to earnt them. Your arguments are pathetic.

JONO51 · Aug 10, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Is generally adding crap to counter crap a good idea?
No. Absolutely not.
Is adding a fast way of making money to be able to max Lucky, a title that takes 4 years of AFKing the Rings OR demands massive amounts of keys - an amount that isn't obtainable though normal play - a bad idea?
No, I currently don't believe that it is.
Considering that there are ... what ... 7 or 8 PvE areas in the whole game where a player can obtain Luxon points and the titles maxes at 10 mil - is having a way where you can obtain those points much faster a bad idea?
I don't believe it is.
Being able to open 10k chests faster?
Have an easier way of obtaining 10k sweet points?

Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.

Those titles were never meant to be maxed though. They were intended as long term titles that would slowly increase over the years, or in a smaller, dedicated amout of time, not something that gets maxed in a month. When you get to the point of only having the consumables and account stuff to do, its a case of "am I dedicated enough to spend years(s) maxing these", rather than "I like this game, I'm gonna do some HM missions".

You have to keep in mind this game was meant to be picked up, played for a few months, then dropped for a while. When you're left with just the consumables etc you either stop playing or grind, knowing full well what you're getting into. Suddenly changing the ideas behind these titles just so they become another thing to spend a month maxing is wrong, and I'd say that SF doing this just constitutes another reason for a nerf imo. There has to be something left for the dedicated players after all, and if these ultra long titles were made shorter, what would there be?

Warrior Babes · Aug 10, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Your whole "Farmers" versus "Players" point is absolutely retarded. So because you guys are just "farmers" then the broken skills should not be nerfed? You find it normal that UW can be cleared in 20-30 mins? You really do? "Farmers" wants those nice skins but aren't willing to spend the time to earnt them. Your arguments are pathetic.

.. "farmers" wont become "players", nerf SF, and some other gimmick will come around.. and the area will still be farmed by "farmers". So those "players" who wanna play the area still wont get a team.. u see?

and what is wrong with.. 20-30min farm.. oh yes.. its to fast
but the W/Me solo smites takes 8-10mins to do the smites.. so he can do 2-3runs while u do 1 UWSC..
if your uwsc group does not fail u prolly get 2-3ectos that run (can be 1) and MAYBE a rare weps skin. but.. 7/10 'pug'groups doesnt make it.. so no chest.
This W/Me will prolly get 2-3 ectos in 3 runs too (averange).. and he can fully trust on himself.. if he fails.. its his own fault, and he doesnt have to w8 for a team to set up..

but what u think is more fun.. completing the area.. and u can choose out of 7 areas to do.. or just repeatly farming wastes.. over and over again.. till u finnaly got enough for your obsi armor?

i agree SF is a very easy skill to play with.. but nerfing it wont stop the farmers.. no matter how much u ppl want to see that happen

JONO51 · Aug 10, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

.. "farmers" wont become "players", nerf SF, and some other gimmick will come around.. and the area will still be farmed by "farmers". So those "players" who wanna play the area still wont get a team.. u see?

No one expect the farmers to turn into players. Either SF is nerfed, another UW/FoW gimmick take its place and we're back to this argument or the new gimmick is somewhere else and ToA is then populated with players looking to complete the area's for their statues, or the solo/2man farmers. There are, people that want to do the area's for statues on their mains that aren't perma's. They go to ToA, try for an hour or two to get a group, then rarely bother to comeback, simply because they've already wasted an hour there and don't like the prospect of the same again. Some have gone to getting an UW run for 30k and others have just focused on other things for now. Simply put, just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there.

kanuks · Aug 10, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

.. "farmers" wont become "players", nerf SF, and some other gimmick will come around.. and the area will still be farmed by "farmers". So those "players" who wanna play the area still wont get a team.. u see?

and what is wrong with.. 20-30min farm.. oh yes.. its to fast
but the W/Me solo smites takes 8-10mins to do the smites.. so he can do 2-3runs while u do 1 UWSC..
if your uwsc group does not fail u prolly get 2-3ectos that run (can be 1) and MAYBE a rare weps skin. but.. 7/10 'pug'groups doesnt make it.. so no chest.
This W/Me will prolly get 2-3 ectos in 3 runs too (averange).. and he can fully trust on himself.. if he fails.. its his own fault, and he doesnt have to w8 for a team to set up..

but what u think is more fun.. completing the area.. and u can choose out of 7 areas to do.. or just repeatly farming wastes.. over and over again.. till u finnaly got enough for your obsi armor?

i agree SF is a very easy skill to play with.. but nerfing it wont stop the farmers.. no matter how much u ppl want to see that happen

I have nothing against farmers but I do have a problem of them abusing a broken skills that turns a run that was meant to take a couple hours in 20 mins. They get the best drops without working for them. Then there is players not abusing SF that finally manages to get a rare drop but instead of being worth 100k it's worth 10k because SF made these items easier to farm and they saturated the market.

Tell me... why do farmers "farm"? To get more money and better skin so they looks more cool than the other. But them oversaturating the market makes these available for lesser prices to everyone. So farmers willing to look better than the other actually contributes for the other to look as good as they are. Isn't it quite paradoxal? You guys really want to see every given casual player with obsidian armor and rare skinned weapons? Because that is exactly what is happening right now. When a farmer finally gets his famous eternal sword drop, does he wants it to be worth 2 millions or only 200k? (Not exact prices I know but that's just an example).

FOW and UW were meant to take a couple hours to complete. Being able to do it in 20 mins by abusing a totally broken class specific skill for sure wasn't A-net's plan. The only reason it wasn't finally nerfed for good is because they are scared that the farmers acts like cry babys and quit the game for good.

upier · Aug 10, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

Those titles were never meant to be maxed though. They were intended as long term titles that would slowly increase over the years, or in a smaller, dedicated amout of time, not something that gets maxed in a month. When you get to the point of only having the consumables and account stuff to do, its a case of "am I dedicated enough to spend years(s) maxing these", rather than "I like this game, I'm gonna do some HM missions".

You have to keep in mind this game was meant to be picked up, played for a few months, then dropped for a while. When you're left with just the consumables etc you either stop playing or grind, knowing full well what you're getting into. Suddenly changing the ideas behind these titles just so they become another thing to spend a month maxing is wrong, and I'd say that SF doing this just constitutes another reason for a nerf imo. There has to be something left for the dedicated players after all, and if these ultra long titles were made shorter, what would there be?

If we take for instance the sweet-tooth title - maxing it means wasting a million. How many SC-guys earn that much in a month?
And that's one title.
How much gold does your average player have? How much does normal play net you?
The problem is that wasting a million is out of touch with how much you earn by playing the game. You NEED something broken to compensate for it.
And SF is currently that broken winner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Your whole "Farmers" versus "Players" point is absolutely retarded. So because you guys are just "farmers" then the broken skills should not be nerfed? You find it normal that UW can be cleared in 20-30 mins? You really do? "Farmers" wants those nice skins but aren't willing to spend the time to earnt them. Your arguments are pathetic.

I am guessing you didn't read what I said.

_Nihilist_ · Aug 10, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Yes, if Shadow Form gets nerfed, something else will take its place.

Question is, will that something else discriminate against the other 9 professions in the game? Probably not. And yes, I understand that there is going to be a Necro, or perhaps a Monk with the Vale Assassin... WOW! one whole team member of an 8-person team that's not an Assassin! Oh boy! That's equal, right? A 7:1 ratio is cool, ye ye, kekekekeke! No, it isn't.

If it's 600/Smite teams that start SpeedClearing (I'd prefer that the SpeedClear nonsense was eliminated, but saying it's not), you can 600/Smite with nearly any profession as the 600 Tank. Hell, set up correctly, a WARRIOR can 600 Tank, it just takes skill and patience. It doesn't hurt other professions nearly as much as Shadow Form does, nor does it abuse game mechanics as much as SF.

Since ANet has said that they themselves are concerned with the SpeedClears, but they haven't done anything about SF since, even though they admit that SF is what is making 20-minute UWSC's possible, people are speaking out. We want to see ANet step up and start acting instead of just flapping their lips.

Before Shadow Form was maintainable, there were plenty of things that could be farmed with it. It just involved using a build that was capable of blowing shit up before SF dropped, or farming where you could Shadowstep behind a wall/obstacle so that you couldn't get hit when it did drop. When this was going on, there was no damage reduction limiting the amount of damage you could do, and SF lasted longer (per single cast) than it does now.

JONO51 · Aug 10, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If we take for instance the sweet-tooth title - maxing it means wasting a million. How many SC-guys earn that much in a month?
And that's one title.
How much gold does your average player have? How much does normal play net you?
The problem is that wasting a million is out of touch with how much you earn by playing the game. You NEED something broken to compensate for it.
And SF is currently that broken winner.

I'd imagine that some SCers could earn a million a month fairly easily, provided they have the guild for it and step up their game to DoA. I'm sure they could do full runs in around an hour and a half (HM of course). Three runs to get an armbrace. In 4.5hours they get a fifth of the cash to get the sweet tooth title. The only other way a non-SCer could get that kinda cash realistically is through a lucky drop, or being fairly adept at trading.

The average player is going to earn not much at all in normal play (and by that I mean, do all the NM stuff, mess around a little in HM). But then again, the normal player wasn't meant to get these titles. They're for the hardcore, those who want the title so much they'd be willing to spend hours 55ing to get it etc.

In terms of doing all the NM stuff, and a large portion of HM stuff, I'd put a realistic estimate at around 1mil-1.5mil through normal play. Now, that is provided they don't go burning their cash on expensive armors and so on, and including the fact that on the way to that, they messed around with some other professions etc.

So yes, wasting a million is out of touch with what you get, but it wasn't intended for everyone to play through the game, drop a few mil, and get +3 to GWAMM. Its all about the effort put into it. In the past, it was play through the game, farm some, and maybe you can get your drunkard title. Now its a case of play a bit, learn how to perma, and run dungeons, UWSC etc and earn millions in a comparatively short amount of time. It's essentially cut out a big chunk of the effort that was meant for these title upon creation. If you don't want to put in the effort to get the money for these titles, then they aren't for you. You just choose to do something else with your time/money instead. It doesn't mean there needs to be a broken skill to give an easy route to it.

Not only that, but the consumable titles are completely optional gameplay wise, they offer no benefit except for +1 maxed title, so you aren't lacking anything really by not having them.

upier · Aug 10, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

I'd imagine that some SCers could earn a million a month fairly easily, provided they have the guild for it and step up their game to DoA. I'm sure they could do full runs in around an hour and a half (HM of course). Three runs to get an armbrace. In 4.5hours they get a fifth of the cash to get the sweet tooth title. The only other way a non-SCer could get that kinda cash realistically is through a lucky drop, or being fairly adept at trading.

The average player is going to earn not much at all in normal play (and by that I mean, do all the NM stuff, mess around a little in HM). But then again, the normal player wasn't meant to get these titles. They're for the hardcore, those who want the title so much they'd be willing to spend hours 55ing to get it etc.

In terms of doing all the NM stuff, and a large portion of HM stuff, I'd put a realistic estimate at around 1mil-1.5mil through normal play. Now, that is provided they don't go burning their cash on expensive armors and so on, and including the fact that on the way to that, they messed around with some other professions etc.

So yes, wasting a million is out of touch with what you get, but it wasn't intended for everyone to play through the game, drop a few mil, and get +3 to GWAMM. Its all about the effort put into it. In the past, it was play through the game, farm some, and maybe you can get your drunkard title. Now its a case of play a bit, learn how to perma, and run dungeons, UWSC etc and earn millions in a comparatively short amount of time. It's essentially cut out a big chunk of the effort that was meant for these title upon creation. If you don't want to put in the effort to get the money for these titles, then they aren't for you. You just choose to do something else with your time/money instead. It doesn't mean there needs to be a broken skill to give an easy route to it.

Not only that, but the consumable titles are completely optional gameplay wise, they offer no benefit except for +1 maxed title, so you aren't lacking anything really by not having them.

The problem is that this is the game's end-game content.
While it is completely optional - given the age of the game and the fact we are not getting new content, sooner or later players that stick with this game have just these things to do.
And if the "quit the game if you don't like SF, because GW obviously isn't the game for you" isn't an appropriate reply to the subject of SF, suggesting to players to not do titles ALSO can not be an appropriate reply.

If SF is trashed, we will still be left with a game where shitloads of money, that can NOT be obtained through normal play, are needed. And just as we had the jump from Ursan to SF, a new cookie is BOUND to show up and then we'll bitch about that again for a year.

Just fix the reason why such massive amounts of cash are even needed in this game. Just remove or fix the end-game content that requires actions that break the game (even further).

But like I said, I don't see that happening. It's kinda the reason why we are getting GW2.
It's a broken game. With or without SF.
Better the devil you know.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Yes, if Shadow Form gets nerfed, something else will take its place.

Question is, will that something else discriminate against the other 9 professions in the game? Probably not. And yes, I understand that there is going to be a Necro, or perhaps a Monk with the Vale Assassin... WOW! one whole team member of an 8-person team that's not an Assassin! Oh boy! That's equal, right? A 7:1 ratio is cool, ye ye, kekekekeke! No, it isn't.

Actually, yes, it will discriminate, maybe not at 7:1, but the old obby flesh eles will take the place of SF sins. What you people don't realize is that most people can do these areas in UW FASTER with an obby flesh ele than an SF sin.

Quote:

If it's 600/Smite teams that start SpeedClearing (I'd prefer that the SpeedClear nonsense was eliminated, but saying it's not), you can 600/Smite with nearly any profession as the 600 Tank. Hell, set up correctly, a WARRIOR can 600 Tank, it just takes skill and patience. It doesn't hurt other professions nearly as much as Shadow Form does, nor does it abuse game mechanics as much as SF.

Umm, any profession can maintain SF? Monks are the fastest at pits and mnts? Necros can do chamber really fast? Eles outclass all the sins(except chamber)? Mesmers can do pits and chamber? Even if everythign resorts to 600/smite, warriors and the like will still be discriminated against. They have no benefit over a caster, and quite a few drawbacks.

Quote:

Since ANet has said that they themselves are concerned with the SpeedClears, but they haven't done anything about SF since, even though they admit that SF is what is making 20-minute UWSC's possible, people are speaking out. We want to see ANet step up and start acting instead of just flapping their lips.

Not everyone shares you opinion. Plus, its not the 20 minute times that anet cares about, because 20 minutes is a terrible time. What anet is concerned about are the 8 minute UW, 13 minute FoW, 12 minute Deep, 34 minute DO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing A, and 15 minute urgoz. Besides, SF won't be nerfed, things around SF will be nerfed(example is CoP and RoJ nerf).

Quote:

Before Shadow Form was maintainable, there were plenty of things that could be farmed with it. It just involved using a build that was capable of blowing shit up before SF dropped, or farming where you could Shadowstep behind a wall/obstacle so that you couldn't get hit when it did drop. When this was going on, there was no damage reduction limiting the amount of damage you could do, and SF lasted longer (per single cast) than it does now.

Way to be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ignorant. SF was ALWAYS maintainable. It has never NOT been maintainable. People were using SF to farm uw long before eotn, cons, etc. You're also wrong about SF lasting longer. When the skill was released at the beginning of factions, SF lasted for 5...17...20 seconds, it now follows a 5..18...21 progressions, so its actually lasts longer now than before.

AtomicMew · Aug 11, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

That's because people are all too busy abusing a ridiculous skill rather than learning how to actually play the area.

What's even sadder is the pure abuse someone can get just for even attempting to create a balanced team for UW HM.

Sadly with the general PuGs mindset this is something better left to Guild groups.

And people wonder why PuGs are so bad these days?

You're assuming that if SF gets nerfed, people will continue doing UW. That's completely wrong. UWSC is barely a decent rate of income to begin with. UW balanced is not something that can compete in terms of economy.

Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net.

There will be fallout from nerfing SF, but I see a compromise as a possibility. To compensate, A.net could reduce money titles by a 2-3x. Or increase ecto and rare weapon drop rate by 3-4x.

I think that would satisfy both sides.

Jeydra · Aug 11, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.

Your argument seems to be, "but you need power farming to get to all the Voltaic Spears and Obsidian Armors, so don't nerf farming".

I don't get it. If you can't farm, then you don't get VS's and FoW armor. Objectively, nothing about you has changed. So you don't have prestige armor, but you don't need prestige armor to be effective. Is there a reason why you should have VS's and FoW armor? And if there is, is there a reason why you should be able to farm them so much faster than you would otherwise?

Approach this from another angle as well. Suppose ANet made it possible to farm 10 ectos / hour. You'll still need to work for FoW armor, but you get it really fast. Is this balanced? What about 15 ectos / hour? Where do you draw the line?

And yet another angle: what are you going to do after you have the VS's and FoW armor? As you said, there's nothing to do other than get VS's and FoW armor and maxed Sweet Tooth. What next? Quit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why is it so hard to understand that "farmers" won't become "players". If spirit spam will be part of the farming cookie, then the guy will get into farming teams. If spirit spam won't be part of the farming cookie, the guy will only be able to play with teams that "play" that area.
The same way that he is able to get into "playing" teams now.

They have to become players. They have no choice. If they do not become players, they can't get Thommis HM done (unless they H/H). This will be especially pronounced on ZQ days.

You seem to think that the spirit spammer will be able to get into "playing" teams now. Maybe. But the point is there are very few, if any, playing teams right now. That's because most players simply hitch a ride on VSF runs. Think about it. The whole point of getting more humans is to finish the area faster. But you finish the area fastest by getting a VSF run, and it is so much easier to get a team for VSF. Why would anyone want to "play"? I'm not referring to you, the player. You've already decided to "play". But you can't find anyone else who also wants to "play". There simply aren't enough players.

On the other hand, if Shadow Form gets nerfed and you can't VSF anymore, then anyone who wants to get the ZQ done must either H/H or pick up more humans. Suddenly the player pool multiplies. This is easy to see if you look at a ZQ where there's no such tool to farm and it's moderately hard to H/H - say, Gyala HM. Try getting a human team to PuG Gyala HM and to PuG Thommis HM, and the difference is leagues wide.

You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, no matter how much you want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net.

How do you think the super rich got super rich in the first place?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Way to be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ignorant. SF was ALWAYS maintainable. It has never NOT been maintainable. People were using SF to farm uw long before eotn, cons, etc. You're also wrong about SF lasting longer. When the skill was released at the beginning of factions, SF lasted for 5...17...20 seconds, it now follows a 5..18...21 progressions, so its actually lasts longer now than before.

No it wasn't. Before the PvE / PvP skill split, Shadow Form wasn't maintainable.