Curse

Racthoh · Jun 10, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

LA heals more than simply feeding more enchantments. With 5 enchantments on yourself for example + Aura, you're healing ~140 HP. 43% of this is about 60 HP. To feed Ether Renewal until it gives you another 60 HP would require 4 more enchantments, for a total of 9 enchantments on yourself. Hard to do, especially since LA qualifies as an enchantment and you don't have it anymore.

I was quick to dismiss how much healing Life Attunement does actually generate, a mental lapse on my part not considering both strengths the skill offers to the Elementalist. I don't think it would be possible as such to generate similar returns by placing enough useful enchantments amongst the other party members; kinda makes it crucial to the whole ratio of Infuse Healths to other spells while keeping the character resilient if attacked.

Chthon · Jun 11, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Carinae Dragonblood - I get the feeling that the AI doesn't use Infuse because there was this update that made the AI check what the stats are on a spell before using it (so it wouldn't simply throw around something it gets from Inspired Hex, for example). To get it to Infuse then you need to spec in Healing Prayers, which in turn means you get a reasonably powerful Dwayna's Kiss you might as well use, especially if you've got all those enchantments already up.

Even with a decent healing spec, the AI is very miserly with Infuse because it doesn't want to overheal. I find adding DKiss fixes a lot of problems with the AI not healing someone soon enough. For players, it's a waste of a skillslot -- you know that overhealing isn't wasteful when you have infinite energy, so you will just Infuse.

Ensign · Jun 13, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

How much defense did you run (as in team composition)? Also tell me if you were maintaining LA on your Paragons?

Against lifesteal, no. I'll use Life Attunement dynamically on physicals depending on the area (mostly against heavy degen to amplify party heals off smiters or necros) I typically run an ER and a Smiter on defense, with a bit of defense mixed onto some combination of Paragons or Necros (Weakness, Pot was Nignog, Expel or Cautery). Whether or not I take a Monk henchman on top of that depends solely on whether or not I feel like paying attention in a particular zone; usually I don't unless I'm chatting with multiple people.

The really big synergy is between Ether Renewal / Prot and Smite / Removal. That combination has amazing synergy and together covers all your bases. When I'm playing with a player Monk I always encourage them to run a Smiter. The synergy between the two has really gotten me to re-evaluate how I look at skills on both character's bars and has gotten me to design the two in tandem.

I think there's too much fear of putting Life Attunement on physicals. The -30% damage only applies to base weapon damage, the part affected by armor anyway. It does not reduce the additional +40s from Death Blossom or Dragon Slash. It does not affect the additional damage from Great Dwarf Weapon or Strength of Honor. I've had no qualms about putting it on a Warrior or Assassin that's going in first, and they don't notice the reduction in damage at all.

For the Wilds (at least the half of it I did before being being messaged to do it with Carinae) I ran Gon / Necro / Smiter with Stefan and Thom. I didn't really want the Gon there, but I didn't see getting all that much out of a second Necro with all the Verata's Gaze bugs popping up. The only real threat was overpulling and Centaur mobs with Blackout. That does not end well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Let me get this right. Are you saying the strongest ER bar in general to be Infuse, Spirit Bond, Prot Spirit, GDW, Aura, ER, Glyph, LA?

Correct. In addition, I feel the weakest two skills are Glyph and Aura. Both of those skills really act as amplifiers of other skills on your bar; the Aura of Infuse and Ether Renewal, the Glyph of Life Attunement and Ether Renewal.

I'd run Life Attunement over Aura of Restoration if I had to make the choice, even without Glyph. You can't maintain it on 8 people reliably without the Glyph, but you can still keep it on 4 without thinking and 5-6 with minimal effort. Otherwise it's better than Aura in pretty much every way.

Letting you go all-in on Life Attunement, in addition to making sure that your second Ether Renewal is available at-will (and more after that if you want / have time) is way more valuable than anything else I can put in that slot. The recharge on Ether Renewal has less to do with keeping it up permanently, and having a much wider window of choice in when to put it back up. Spending the 1.75 seconds is dangerous when things are ugly, after all.

I will say that I am more than eager to drop Glyph whenever there are Celerities being popped, but I haven't used consumables in a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I won't rank the effectiveness of the skills, I'll just say that noticably the least useful skill is Shield Guardian. It's good, just not necessary.

I would say mediocre and unnecessary. I will say that Ether Renewal is more comfortable to run with Shield Guardian. You can always toss it at characters taking a lot of hits to help out, instead of putting faith in the prots and slow rolling Infuse; you can spam it on yourself when getting hit instead of trusting your self heals to keep you alive. But the other skills are good enough to get you through those situations and Shield Guardian just takes you from 'good enough' to 'comfortably more than good enough'. It doesn't take you from 'dangerous' to 'solved problem'.

The issue is more with the framing; that it's about the trade-off between Shield Guardian, clearly the least useful skill on the bar that uses it and unnecessary, and Great Dwarf Weapon, one of the strongest skills on its bars, both offensively and defensively. Eve and Lo-Sha wanding with Great Dwarf Weapon is one of the 8 best skills for the bar, and that's if you're trying to make it bad. Mass knockdowns and huge damage add so much to the character at 0 cost; I can't imagine not running that. It's like not running Prot Spirit, but worse.

Jeydra · Jun 15, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

For the Wilds (at least the half of it I did before being being messaged to do it with Carinae) I ran Gon / Necro / Smiter with Stefan and Thom. I didn't really want the Gon there, but I didn't see getting all that much out of a second Necro with all the Verata's Gaze bugs popping up. The only real threat was overpulling and Centaur mobs with Blackout. That does not end well.

That explains it pretty easily. You ran a Smiter. I ran single-char backline for 5 dedicated damage characters. I have great faith in the ability of the ER Elementalist with Shield Guardian to keep red bars up - in fact I'd go ahead and claim that a good ER Elementalist with Shield Guardian can do more than Mhenlo + Lina can, combined. A single ER Elementalist with Shield Guardian even suffices for some HM 8-man areas. I have this screenshot where I did Heart of Shiverpeaks HM with myself as a single healer, with the only other defense being Reckless Haste + Foul Feast (if you can even call Reckless Haste defense, since the most dangerous mobs in HoS are casters). You can't do the same without Shield Guardian.

With your setup and Shield Guardian I'd be quite confident of surviving most areas in HM with only the Smiter + myself.

Also: The Wilds isn't the only area. Push come to shove Shield Guardian makes your bar a lot more resilient. You may not need it some of the time, but when you do the difference is telling. Try the first Stone Summit mob in Duncan HM, along with the Restless Dead popups later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Correct. In addition, I feel the weakest two skills are Glyph and Aura. Both of those skills really act as amplifiers of other skills on your bar; the Aura of Infuse and Ether Renewal, the Glyph of Life Attunement and Ether Renewal.

That also explains things, since I was under the impression that you still ran bars without maintained enchantments (which I've long stopped doing).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The issue is more with the framing; that it's about the trade-off between Shield Guardian, clearly the least useful skill on the bar that uses it and unnecessary, and Great Dwarf Weapon, one of the strongest skills on its bars, both offensively and defensively. Eve and Lo-Sha wanding with Great Dwarf Weapon is one of the 8 best skills for the bar, and that's if you're trying to make it bad. Mass knockdowns and huge damage add so much to the character at 0 cost; I can't imagine not running that. It's like not running Prot Spirit, but worse.

Up to you, I'll just say that I've tried running physicals and it is clearly inferior to casterballs, at least on Elementalist primary; I've tried GDW and it is terrible; and I /hug my Shield Guardian the same way you /hug your GDW. Koss + Melonni + GDW did not save me from dying to the touchers in The Wilds, but Shield Guardian would have. The day I bring GDW on a dedicated defensive character is the day I play Monk in GvG with Gale for spike assist - just doesn't happen.

Still I'll give it another shot when an opportunity arises. Chances are it'll be against the hardest areas in the game though, because against the easier areas it's just plain easier (and faster) to blow through with AP.

Jaigoda · Jun 15, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Koss + Melonni + GDW did not save me from dying to the touchers in The Wilds, but Shield Guardian would have. The day I bring GDW on a dedicated defensive character is the day I play Monk in GvG with Gale for spike assist - just doesn't happen.

Just a quick thing; I don't run an ER ele but I understand how it works and have a bit of a qualm here. I ran the Wilds just a few days ago, and even with a WoH monk I was able to mostly take care of the crazy Toucher spikes. If I had a 300hp heal that casted every second, it would be easymode. Also, I'm not sure how Shield Guardian would have saved you, since it's life stealing that wouldn't trigger the heal. It's also mostly big single-target spikes, and not spread out. But to each his own, carry on with your discussion.

Ensign · Jun 16, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I ran single-char backline for 5 dedicated damage characters.

We are fundamentally solving very different problems.

You are building and playing very defensively, starting with the giant liability that is the henchieball. You're building with that in mind, using Shield Guardian to more than compensate for the weakness of the henchieball and turn it into a strength (something I have mentioned as one of the few things I like about Shield Guardian), and then building your entire defensive plan around that. The build is essentially one big combo, and as long as you execute it right you can survive a lot. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this; it's essentially a henchie version of tanknspank.

I tend to play 1) with at least one other player, and 2) very aggressively. The skill and henchman choices reflect this. I'm instead aiming for the most powerful and flexible skills possible for an environment where tactics are not particularly well controlled; while you're taking defense out of skill slots and putting it into tactical architecture, I'm putting the defense directly into the skill slots and making the tactics very aggressive.

When I did most of the harder areas of PvE with hero/hench, I had to do what you do as well - though for the most part I used Obsidian Flesh and corner blocking. It is necessary to overcome the gross deficiencies of henchmen skillsets, equipment, and AI. You cannot rely upon blowing everything up the way you can when you have 2 players with heroes, and you need some sort of abusive defensive architecture to stay alive long enough to kill mobs. I understand this. I think it's great you've figured out how to do this with hero/hench. I do think that you need to put much more emphasis on the tactic that all of this is designed around, because if you take it outside of that environment and it fails miserably; as miserably as trying to run roughshod over everything when you're dragging Eve and Cynn along. It just doesn't happen.

I'll re-iterate points that have gotten lost in these discussions in the past - I like Shield Guardian for exactly two things:

1) Babysitting monster-magnet balls of henchmen that suck up damage like sponges, where Shield Guardian is basically a super-charged Heal Party;

2) Keeping a minion-train going by mass-healing minions at low cost.

Outside of those particular situations Shield Guardian is complete and utter trash. That does not mean it's bad in those situations; it's quite good for those purposes. But if you are not running a big ball of heroes and henchmen, or do not have a huge minion wall that you feel the need to heal, then Shield Guardian has no business being anywhere near your bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The day I bring GDW on a dedicated defensive character is the day I play Monk in GvG with Gale for spike assist - just doesn't happen.

Do you have any idea why it doesn't happen? Do not bring up points, or lines of thought for that matter, that you do not understand. The reason behind those decisions is not at all similar.

(If you want a Gale it goes on the 3rd Monk. The 2nd Monk should have a nuke or strip).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Just a quick thing; I don't run an ER ele but I understand how it works and have a bit of a qualm here. I ran the Wilds just a few days ago, and even with a WoH monk I was able to mostly take care of the crazy Toucher spikes. If I had a 300hp heal that casted every second, it would be easymode. Also, I'm not sure how Shield Guardian would have saved you, since it's life stealing that wouldn't trigger the heal. It's also mostly big single-target spikes, and not spread out. But to each his own, carry on with your discussion.

The toucher mobs really aren't a problem, at least they shouldn't be; I really have no clue why he was having problems with them since you can Infuse through those easily. The issue is that if you're not balling up for Shield Guardian to do party / clean-up healing, damage just sticks until you get around to Infusing it without some distributed party heals elsewhere on the team, so you end up sitting at 70% health a lot without anything good you can do about it. Shield Guardian triggers on the auto-attacks between touches, and cleans up the garbage.

Jeydra · Jun 16, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You are building and playing very defensively, starting with the giant liability that is the henchieball. You're building with that in mind, using Shield Guardian to more than compensate for the weakness of the henchieball and turn it into a strength (something I have mentioned as one of the few things I like about Shield Guardian), and then building your entire defensive plan around that. The build is essentially one big combo, and as long as you execute it right you can survive a lot. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this; it's essentially a henchie version of tanknspank.

Do you have any idea how I play in PvE? No? Don't bring up arguments you don't understand because let me say right now that one of the tactics I use in PvE is the so-called 'tanknspank' where the Ether Renewal Elementalist tanks mobs. It works so long as ER stays up, and I will use it when the situation so warrants. BUT - it is one of, not the only method. In fact I use it pretty sparingly. If you are operating under the assumption that I essentially play a variant of the Perma + 3x RoJ teambuild, then it is past time you grasp this basic point.

If you ask why then I take so much damage while playing ER, then I'll tell you. It's the same reason why Monks can't run 3 Superior runes. They take damage because monsters run up to them and hit them. I take damage because monsters run up to me and hit me. The difference is when I'm playing ER I don't kite monsters when they come; I heal through.

I find it insulting that you relate Ether Renewal to Obsidian Flesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The toucher mobs really aren't a problem, at least they shouldn't be; I really have no clue why he was having problems with them since you can Infuse through those easily. The issue is that if you're not balling up for Shield Guardian to do party / clean-up healing, damage just sticks until you get around to Infusing it without some distributed party heals elsewhere on the team, so you end up sitting at 70% health a lot without anything good you can do about it. Shield Guardian triggers on the auto-attacks between touches, and cleans up the garbage.

Remember, you had more defense. If I do The Wilds with 3 Monks I can reasonably go AFK during it, and then wonder why you had problems with the Blackout Centaur mobs.

And you're again misunderstanding Shield Guardian. I'll stress.

The main reason to have Shield Guardian isn't the effect. It is that Shield Guardian is a 10s enchantment that casts in 1/4s and has 1s recharge.

It is because of Shield Guardian that you can cast nonstop, and it is because of Shield Guardian that you can Infuse more. It is why Shield Guardian is better than Reversal of Fortune. The reasons why Shield Guardian, although it doesn't trigger against Vampiric Touch, is effective against the mass Touchers are:

1. You cast more, giving you more health to Infuse with.
2. You can put it on yourself, giving you another enchantment.
3. It triggers on autoattacks between Vampiric Touches.

You've given one the three reasons, but the first two are hardly minor they are very important. With Shield Guardian you can happily Infuse people at 70% health because the amount of self-renewal you have is enough to cope with the frequent health loss. Like I wrote before you are gaining in the vicinity of 200 health per second, so you can correspondingly Infuse more. It makes me suspect you aren't using Shield Guardian the way I do.

***

I have this thing more to say about GDW. If there comes a time when you're under no pressure and just waiting for the monsters to die, then having GDW is great, you just spam it and wand the guy to death. Without GDW you'll still kill the guy, it just takes longer. In return your team is more stable. In fact now that you mentioned it, the quasi Obsidian tank you can pull with ER - a great tactic especially when your party already has considerable DP - is pretty risky without Shield Guardian. I don't think I've tried extensively without Shield Guardian because I've been running with Shield Guardian for so long. But I know I once used BotGD instead of Shield Guardian, and the Stone Summit mob at Duncan HM wiped me out.

If we say an ER Elementalist kicks out many times the raw power of a real Monk, then an ER Elementalist with Shield Guardian also kicks out more power than an ER Elementalist without. It's not a factor of many times, but the increased output is definite.

In the case of GDW, if you have it, chances are all you'll do is accentuate an already winning situation. You do things faster, but without it you'll do it just as well. Against that, if push comes to shove, you will fracture faster than a similar Elementalist with Shield Guardian. If you fracture often enough you'll end up in a hole you can't climb out of. I prefer to guarantee completion than to risk failure. You can say this is a more defensive mindset and you may be right. But then I also seem to run less defense than you (see Smiter vs. no Smiter).

If you can name an area you can do with GDW and think I can't with Shield Guardian, I'll be interested in giving it a try.

Ensign · Jun 25, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you are operating under the assumption that I essentially play a variant of the Perma + 3x RoJ teambuild

I am operating under the assumption that carefully practiced henchie and mob control tactics are an essential part of your build choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It makes me suspect you aren't using Shield Guardian the way I do.

Of course not; when it is on my bar it is barely ever cast. It is also abundantly clear that you do not use Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, and Infuse Health at all like I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If we say an ER Elementalist kicks out many times the raw power of a real Monk, then an ER Elementalist with Shield Guardian also kicks out more power than an ER Elementalist without.

It kicks out more raw defensive power. It does not kick out more power. I would speculate that the difference in perception is due to your playing with henchmen? If you cannot accumulate enough of a critical mass to blow up an area, you need to fall back on building a defensive infrastructure to survive long enough for mobs to inevitably die; skills that add to defense are more essential than any offensive tool in that scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In the case of GDW, if you have it, chances are all you'll do is accentuate an already winning situation.

It tends to amplify offenses in ways that let them substitute for defense. You only need to rely on heavy defense when a mob refuses to just blow up when you punch it. The longer you can keep momentum and off your back foot, the better. This is an important part of playing Monk and carries over here as well.

I agree with you that this is not relevant with henchman teams in some of the harder areas because you simply cannot build momentum there, and thus building purely for the back foot is preferable. The balance of Guild Wars is such that you never have to kill a mob quickly before it kills you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

But then I also seem to run less defense than you (see Smiter vs. no Smiter).

As I said, you build defense into your strategy instead of your skill slots. If you run a very strong defensive skill base with lots of cleaning, your physicals can run around mashing on Frenzy doing whatever they want. If your defense is insufficient you're fighting on your back foot and physicals have to lineback to try and keep people alive. There's a very powerful symbiotic relationship between offense and defense. I went and repeated the Wilds without a smiter, and while I still didn't have any problems the whole thing went slower, and it was a lot touchier than with the cleaning and clean-up.

The skillset of PvE is such that you can exploit that to run over every area of the game with 2-3 players and heroes. With henchmen, you can't hit that critical mass so often, and it becomes more an issue of dealing with the offense put out by mobs than just blowing them up before they're much of a threat.

Moloch Vein · Jun 25, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In the case of GDW, if you have it, chances are all you'll do is accentuate an already winning situation. You do things faster, but without it you'll do it just as well.

I have to object to that. Case in point, our Mallyx run yesterday.

Improvavel · Jun 26, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I have this thing more to say about GDW. If there comes a time when you're under no pressure and just waiting for the monsters to die, then having GDW is great, you just spam it and wand the guy to death. Without GDW you'll still kill the guy, it just takes longer. In return your team is more stable.

If we say an ER Elementalist kicks out many times the raw power of a real Monk, then an ER Elementalist with Shield Guardian also kicks out more power than an ER Elementalist without. It's not a factor of many times, but the increased output is definite.

In the case of GDW, if you have it, chances are all you'll do is accentuate an already winning situation. You do things faster, but without it you'll do it just as well. Against that, if push comes to shove, you will fracture faster than a similar Elementalist with Shield Guardian. If you fracture often enough you'll end up in a hole you can't climb out of. I prefer to guarantee completion than to risk failure. You can say this is a more defensive mindset and you may be right. But then I also seem to run less defense than you (see Smiter vs. no Smiter).

I think this is one of the cases of the teams you play with.

We all know Ai is kind of lacking and melee AI even more.

So in the caster balls you use Jeydra, I will take your word (haven't played that way) on the fact that Shield Guardian is great.

But once you starting to move out of the caster balls and start adding physicals and especially HUMAN physicals, GDW is one of the best skills you can run on ER Eles.

The offense and defense created by those physicals hitting and knocking multiple foes (and human physicals opposed to AI ones will attack different targets) is amazing.

It's like having multiple earth shakers.

Jeydra · Jun 30, 2009, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I am operating under the assumption that carefully practiced henchie and mob control tactics are an essential part of your build choice.

That's right, although it's certainly more to do with me not running ER except when the area in question is a tough one (Slaver's HM, Vloxen's HM, etc). Otherwise mob control + henchmen control are usually not necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you cannot accumulate enough of a critical mass to blow up an area, you need to fall back on building a defensive infrastructure to survive long enough for mobs to inevitably die; skills that add to defense are more essential than any offensive tool in that scenario.

I'll accept that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I have to object to that. Case in point, our Mallyx run yesterday.

Two reasons why our Mallyx run favoured GDW over Shield Guardian:

1. We had Essence support (= Glyph of Swiftness unnecessary, giving an extra free slot).
2. We were rolling in defense. ER Ele, Prism Resto, two Paragons and 4 spirit spammers. With this Shield Guardian is overkill.

Counter-example to this as well: some time ago I did Borlis Pass HM with Xenos and Varda. Then we had Orders, 3 physicals, E/A promise nuker (I ran this because it is my belief that one ER Elementalist suffices for 6-man areas, so might as well run more damage) and E/Mo Infuse with GDW. Some way into the mission Varda popped an Essence, yet after one overaggro we wiped, forcing a restart.

In this case I question GDW. It's a good skill alright, but if you ask me whether we'd have survived with Shield Guardian instead of GDW I'm inclined to answer "yes". Shield Guardian gives you defensive power that you can't neglect when you're running on the bare minimum of defense. In this particular case there's another reason to use Shield Guardian: it lets you run Protective Bond which, let me say, is by far the most powerful enchantment to maintain if you can somehow find the energy to maintain it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

But once you starting to move out of the caster balls and start adding physicals and especially HUMAN physicals, GDW is one of the best skills you can run on ER Eles.

I don't doubt it. What's more, it gives you flexibility to play for damage when under no pressure. It's just that taking GDW instead of Shield Guardian means you're compromising your defensive capabilities. If you still have enough defense and people don't die that's fine. If you cross the threshold though you can expect to die, wipe and possibly fail (see above).

Improvavel · Jul 01, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't doubt it. What's more, it gives you flexibility to play for damage when under no pressure. It's just that taking GDW instead of Shield Guardian means you're compromising your defensive capabilities. If you still have enough defense and people don't die that's fine. If you cross the threshold though you can expect to die, wipe and possibly fail (see above).

Not with people playing physical instead of AI as they will cause multiple targets to be knocked. Knocked foe is no threat.

HM vloxs with 2 ER healers, GDW, AP MOP nuker and 5 physicals around 30-40 minutes.

Ensign · Jul 03, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't doubt it. What's more, it gives you flexibility to play for damage when under no pressure. It's just that taking GDW instead of Shield Guardian means you're compromising your defensive capabilities. If you still have enough defense and people don't die that's fine. If you cross the threshold though you can expect to die, wipe and possibly fail (see above).

This is true, however it's also true for every other skill on every other bar on the team. Every skill you take on offense is one that you're taking instead of a defensive skill, and that could be the one that makes the difference.

Great Dwarf Weapon adds a huge amount of offense to a build; it also provides a large amount of disruption, especially when playing with multiple player physicals. Shield Guardian does add another defensive tool, but it's addition is modest at best; especially when things get tight and Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, and Infuse are being maximized.

If you look around the team build as a whole, there are likely quite a few skills that are providing a lot less offense than GDW does, and could be replaced with skills that would provide a lot more defense than Shield Guardian does. Many of the good replacements do what Shield Guardian does better. I can see how playing without that distributed defense and healing would make Shield Guardian necessary, and have experienced that when I tried to cut out as much distributed defense as possible; but with distributed defenses, Shield Guardian becomes comically bad.

My general feeling is that ER + Smite, with a couple distributed defensive skills on other characters, is more than sufficient for 8 man areas (possibly not for Hard Mode DoA because of all the weirdness there). The main advantage of 2 ER guys is that between the two you can maintain Protective Bond on everyone without much trouble, which lets you walk all over everything.

high priestess anya · Jul 06, 2009, 12:10 PM // 12:10

I was testing a life bonder build where there bonder is perma-seeded (seed of life+healing seed) using skills to extend enchants, the seeder only needs extinguish, both seed skills, heal party and energy management. tried it in DOA HM and it made everyone almost invicible, only the hugest of mobs could break the power fo the seeds. If anyone wants to test the build and post it i would love to see it being reworked. i only played around with it once but its definately work a shot

Jeydra · Jul 14, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

@Ensign - agree, I'll just add that recently I've been trying teambuilds with only one Monk (Healer Henchman) + Aegis / Prot Spirit on the Sabway MM + Displacement + Union, and surprisingly enough it worked for quite a few areas of the game. It certainly did Abaddon HM pretty easily, as did the mission with Terrorweb Dryders and Emissaries of Dhuum. Even more surprising was successfully doing Vloxen's HM level 3 with MM, three spirit spammers, AP nuker and a Smiter. The guy with both N/Rt healers dc'ed and I was almost read to write off the wasted 40 minutes to get there, but then we went ahead and tried and Ogden + Smiter's Boon was all the healing we needed. Lol PvE! Maybe sometime I'll try a build with no healing, just to see if it works.

@Topic - I've been thinking of rehabilitating Protective Bond. The skill is by far the most powerful enchantment to maintain, even more powerful than Life Attunement and Vital Blessing. The problem is of course how to maintain it. If you put it on everyone you risk dying a spectacular death if you drop to zero energy, and given Protective Bond's haphazard nature it's entirely possible you hit zero in an instant.

... but the rewards are awesome, so why not give it a try?

So:

Protective Bond breakpoints are -4 energy / hit @ 8 Protection Prayers and -3 energy / hit @ 13 Protection Prayers. 13 is actually reachable; you either use an item that +1 to all stats, or you use a "Master of my Domain" mod and recast as many times as is necessary to get the +1. Will be really boring and tedious, but it gets you to the breakpoint before all the action occurs. I have little experience with Protective Bond @ 13 Protection Prayers, but I'd guess the benefits of getting there are tremendous: effectively a 25% increase in your energy pool.

Which means there are two options for spec ...

13 Energy Storage / 12 Protection Prayers / 4 Air / rest into Healing Prayers - essentially the standard spec, to which you somehow raise Protection Prayers to 13;
13 Energy Storage / 8 Protection Prayers / 11 Healing Prayers - with this spec you tank the -4 energy cost and give up on the 2-spell Glyph of Swiftness, but gain 11-point Healing Prayers.

With Protective Bond one skill obviously becomes useless - Prot Spirit. It's still a fairly long-lasting enchantment, but then if that's what you're looking for you could use Vigorous Spirit. That leave a free spot. Infuse Health gets a little dubious as well since people aren't likely to drop that low, but then again Protective Bond might be removed and it's queer playing ER without Infuse, so ...

On the other hand Breath of the Great Dwarf gains in power. With everyone under Protective Bond you'd largely see everyone's HP dropping a little, but only a little. BotGD would clean this up pretty easily.

I'm thinking of the following build:

13 Energy Storage, 4 Air, 5 Healing Prayers, 12 Protection Prayers

Glyph of Swiftness, Ether Renewal, Infuse Health, Aura of Restoration
Protective Bond
Spirit Bond, Breath of the Great Dwarf, Shield Guardian

Shield Guardian because with no Prot Spirit and with Protective Bond's constant demand for energy, you need something to cast (and casting Infuse is dangerous, especially without Life Attunement to heal you). Possibly though with 13 Protection Prayers you won't need Shield Guardian to spam, and then you can run GDW. Maybe. If using a conset for 13 Protection Prayers Glyph of Swiftness becomes droppable, and you can run Life Attunement together with Protective Bond, and probably Shield Guardian for GDW as well.

Alternatively:

13 Energy Storage, 8 Protection Prayers, 11 Healing Prayers

Glyph of Swiftness, Ether Renewal, Aura of Restoration, Infuse Health
Protective Bond
Vigorous Spirit (?), Spirit Bond, Breath of the Great Dwarf

Don't know about Vigorous Spirit. It could go some way to countering pressure since you've got so many Protective Bonds already, it's a good cover enchantment and it casts fast. Otherwise I can't think of something to use the high Healing Prayers spec with. Heal Party might be possible, but then Mindbender + Heal Party + Spirit Bond doesn't look like enough energy gain to cope with the -4 Protective Bond.

Another method of dealing with the high energy demand from Protective Bond would be to maintain Protective Bond only on soft targets (AL 60 and, if there are still enough Bonds to go around, either those with DP or AL 70 targets). This would make the build fail less, although it might necessitate Protective Spirit back into the build.

I don't know, right now it's just conjecture.

Xenomortis · Jul 14, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

... but the rewards are awesome, so why not give it a try?

Well are they? At best it makes your job insanely easy (which is good, I'll grant you), however it comes with the potential for horrible failure if suddenly your energy plummets due to too many triggers. It doesn't have an effect on how quickly you can kill a mob and if you can keep everyone alive without using Prot Bond without any problems, then it almost certainly isn't worth the risk.

I would still recommend trying it out, just to see how big a difference it makes. The rest of your post seems sound enough and you know far more about ER builds than I do.

Jeydra · Jul 16, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Well yes, but if the Protective Bonds go up and stay up, not only will your job be very easy, it will also:

1. Allow everyone to mass Superior runes;
2. No longer necessary to run two backline characters, at most just slot a couple of Kaolai's / BotGD's around (still better than running a Smiter);
3. Free up one slot on the bar (Prot Spirit no longer necessary);
4. Monsters changing targets suddenly aren't dangerous anymore (think broken aggro with Bladed Aatxes in the UW).

I think it's worth a try, although I don't know how it'll work - and I can't test since my computer broke down

@idea - couple more thoughts ...

I realized one night that the 11-spec in Healing Prayers is actually pretty bogus. You don't have to spec into Healing Prayers, you still have all the Elemental lines as well as Smiting Prayers to spec into. Unfortunately I'm not sure what to actually bring. There aren't that many attractive skills in Smiting Prayers that you can't do better with a real Smiter. The Elemental lines ... cast times are a problem. Churning Earth, Eruption, etc would be great, but you need to cast to keep up energy and these options simply take too long to finish. Another option is to thrash all these fancy lines and plain bring more PvE skills. There's room after all. Which PvE skill to bring though, I'm not so sure. I know Varda's been using Elemental Lord, which would be even more of easy-mode as well as compensate for not having Life Attunement.

The other thing is, you are free to mass Superior runes. That means 16 Energy Storage, 17 if using a Golden Egg or similar for 13 Protection Prayers. If it's possible to somehow squeeze another level out of Energy Storage, you'd have 18 Energy Storage for +5 energy per enchantment per cast. Holy! Especially since 18 ES Ether Renewal lasts 23s, +20% = 28s, and you might even be able to do without Glyph of Swiftness then.

Unfortunately I don't know any reliable way of reaching 18 Energy Storage

Blame ANet for not making Elemental Lord affect Energy Storage lol, although if they did do that they might also nerf Ether Renewal

Xenomortis · Jul 16, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Hmm. You mentioned Heal Party in your earlier post.

GoS, ER, Mindbender, Aura, E-Lord, Prot Bond, Heal Party, Something else I can't think of (mabye Infuse, but you shouldn't need such a big heal).

With 4 in Air, you can maintain ER and Mindbender, meaning you should have 5 enchantments on you. That's 20 energy a cast.
-4 degen is 1.33 energy loss a second (or 4 energy every 3 seconds).
Heal Party is a 15 energy spell you can get off every 3 seconds with Mindbender.

All that means you get 20 energy whilst losing 19 energy. Unfortunatly, you still have the PB triggers to worry about. That probably will result in failure.

The real trouble, is that you'll need to be spamming a cheap skill a lot just to keep up with protective bond. I was vanquishing Iron Horse Mine earlier with a guildie and Varda, and Varda's energy plummeted very quickly with Prot Bond when the assassin came under heavy attack.

Martin Firestorm · Aug 10, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Has anyone tried elemental lord with this build? That much more energy and health gain on every cast, plus its another enchantment on the ele, even though the attribute points boost is mostly wasted (though you could spec just 3 points into air magic and still get the recharge boost for a second spell if ele lord is up when you cast the GoS).

Xenomortis · Aug 10, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

Has anyone tried elemental lord with this build? That much more energy and health gain on every cast, plus its another enchantment on the ele, even though the attribute points boost is mostly wasted (though you could spec just 3 points into air magic and still get the recharge boost for a second spell if ele lord is up when you cast the GoS).

I doubt E Lord is really helpful. It's inferior to Aura for this purpose and you'd have to slot something else out to fit it in. Whatever you lose is probably more useful than EL.