Curse

Cebe · Feb 03, 2009, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

1. You can't bring monk elites

The most commonplace PvE Monk elite is Word of Healing. The ability to spam Infuse Health until you pass out kinda bypasses the need for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

2. You need to bring a skill that make ER recharge faster (e.g. Glyph of Swiftness). That leaves only 6 skill slots.

A lot of Monks take Glyph of Lesser Energy and a Resurrect skill (I know not every Monk takes a Res, but a lot still do) - so that only leaves those Monks with 6 "useful" slots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

3. You can't go hybrid because you need to max out energy storage.

I see no problem with having the following:

Energy Storage: 11 + 1 + 1
Healing Prayers: 11
Protection Prayers: 10

There you go, there's your hybrid. Aegis lasts 9 seconds, Protective Spirit is fine at 10 PP, Infuse heals for 126%, you can spam Reverse Hex as much as you like, what's the problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

4. You have no divine favor, so DF skills are quite useless to you.

Don't need them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

5. Enchant removal can be a problem.

See post above. Enchantment Removal in PvE is no problem if you know what you're doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

6. Your prots are weaker than a decked out prot monk

A lot of Hybrid Monks use a 12-11-6 atttribute split. The 11 being Protection Prayers, with a minor rune it takes it to 12. The additional 2 attribute points isn't going to make a vast difference. You can still spam PS like a pro.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

The most commonplace PvE Monk elite is Word of Healing. The ability to spam Infuse Health until you pass out kinda bypasses the need for this.

Actually I sometimes prefer LoD over WoH for the party heal which an ER prot lacks.

Quote:

A lot of Monks take Glyph of Lesser Energy and a Resurrect skill (I know not every Monk takes a Res, but a lot still do) - so that only leaves those Monks with 6 "useful" slots.

So monks bringing a res has 1 less available skill slot when comparing against a ER prot without a res?

If the res is that much a handicap during the mission then dont bring it on your monk, but if a res is that useful during the mission then you should also bring it on your ER prot too. I dont see how this is a valid argument around bringing or not bringing a res skill when comparing monks against ER prot.

Quote:

I see no problem with having the following:

Energy Storage: 11 + 1 + 1
Healing Prayers: 11
Protection Prayers: 10

Then there will be about a 1s break between ER running out and being able to recast it even with GoS and 20% enchant. Also many hybrid monks run 15/14 to healing and 10/11 prot after runes, 11 healing is crappy. Anyway infuse makes putting points to healing unnecessary so it is not worth making a hybrid out of an ER build.

Quote:

See post above. Enchantment Removal in PvE is no problem if you know what you're doing.

Enchant removal can be a problem when your last enchantment casted is ER since you need to keep renewing it. Being the last enchantment, it is susceptible to enchant stripping even without deep enchant removal. Of course you can always cast another enchantment on top of it immediately but that would take up even more time than the 2s required for casting the GoS+ER, when party members can die.

Cebe · Feb 03, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Actually I sometimes prefer LoD over WoH for the party heal which an ER prot lacks.

If Party Heals are that much of a necessity, Heal Party heals for more at 11 Healing Prayers than Light of Deliverance does at 13! It has a much shorter recharge, and the energy isn't a concern on an Ether Renewal Ele. The only downside is Heal Party has a 2 second cast versus LoD's 1 second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Then there will be about a 1s break between ER running out and being able to recast it even with GoS and 20% enchant. Also many hybrid monks run 15/14 to healing and 10/11 prot after runes, 11 healing is crappy.

1 second down. How dreadful. Perhaps it would be prudent to "time" that 1 second down to coincide with moving between mobs, or as the current mob dies. In extreme situations more "tactical" action may be required I guess, but it's still not as "dire" as you make out I feel.

Yes, 11 Healing, but a quarter second cast, instantly recharging powerheal? It hardly matters a great deal. Picking on a few attribute points here and there isn't a major issue. The fact of the matter remains that (under normal conditions) with ER + Enchantments an Ele can Infuse until their fingers bleed, and still not have to stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Enchant removal can be a problem when your last enchantment casted is ER since you need to keep renewing it.

Or you could not run up to monsters shouting "Hi! I have enchantments. Strip me!" Skulking at the back of a group to avoid the first wave of enchantment removal will be fine, or you can cover ER with PS before charging in. ER lasts 21 seconds or so, after 20 seconds most mobs in most areas would have perished.

If enchantment removal really does cripple your entire party - take a Rit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Being the last enchantment, it is susceptible to enchant stripping even without deep enchant removal. Of course you can always cast another enchantment on top of it immediately but that would take up even more time than the 2s required for casting the GoS+ER, when party members can die.

I'm not sure in a party of 8 I'm be happy with only one ER-Infuse Ele as my support. You'd have someone else. That someone else could stop people dying for those "two seconds" you need to to keep yourself positively swimming in energy.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

If Party Heals are that much of a necessity, Heal Party heals for more at 11 Healing Prayers than Light of Deliverance does at 13! It has a much shorter recharge, and the energy isn't a concern on an Ether Renewal Ele. The only downside is Heal Party has a 2 second cast versus LoD's 1 second.

That 2s downside can be serious when facing interrupters. Also most LoD monks dont run healing at 13. Why should they when they have monk runes and headgear?

Quote:

1 second down. How dreadful. Perhaps it would be prudent to "time" that 1 second down to coincide with moving between mobs, or as the current mob dies. In extreme situations more "tactical" action may be required I guess, but it's still not as "dire" as you make out I feel.

That is another second you can add to the 2s GoS+ER time when you can expect the ER prot to not be able to help the team even when someone is about to die. 3s downtime for your healer/prot every 21s is bad enough to be called out.

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Yes, 11 Healing, but a quarter second cast, instantly recharging powerheal? It hardly matters a great deal. Picking on a few attribute points here and there isn't a major issue. The fact of the matter remains that (under normal conditions) with ER + Enchantments an Ele can Infuse until their fingers bleed, and still not have to stop.

I am not saying it is build breaking, but there are weaknesses in the build and just having an ER prot doesn't necessarily imply that your team is invincible. Besides there are down times and it is not worth building an ER hybrid for 11 to healing and only 13 to ES when you can just go max ES, protect and bring infuse.

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Skulking at the back of a group to avoid the first wave of enchantment removal will be fine, or you can cover ER with PS before charging in. ER lasts 21 seconds or so, after 20 seconds most mobs in most areas would have perished.

It depends on the mob and the rest of the team build wouldn't it?

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I'm not sure in a party of 8 I'm be happy with only one ER-Infuse Ele as my support. You'd have someone else. That someone else could stop people dying for those "two seconds" you need to to keep yourself positively swimming in energy.

A capable monk can do better even though it takes more skill to be one.

Jeydra · Feb 03, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Ele infuser? You mean this? A way to spam infuse

It's my favorite build. Enchant removal = DEATH

Lol I just took a look at the video and, to be honest, your build needs a lot of work. Here's why:

1. Why do you care that you never drop below 50% health? It's nothing special, a simple arbitrary mark. Drop below it if you have to. There's no reason to not run the Superior Vigor rune, and with all the party enchantments you might get on you (Aegis for example) you can't even stay at the 'ideal' 50% health loss.
2. What's with Mending and Watchful Spirit? Neither of them are good. Yeah they give +5 regen, but your prodiguous energy management is better spent on ... maintaining 8 copies of Life Attunement on everyone in your party. You don't need the health regen since you heal so fast so much with Ether Renewal.
3. You have no Prots ... the fight against the Great Destroyer led to a lot of deaths, because even though Infuse spam is great you can't Infuse fast enough. If nothing else you could use Heal Party + Mindbender, or Breath of the Great Dwarf.

Maybe you should try one of the standard bars, you'll probably find them a lot more powerful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There are also real limitations to the build.

1. You can't bring monk elites
2. You need to bring a skill that make ER recharge faster (e.g. Glyph of Swiftness). That leaves only 6 skill slots.
3. You can't go hybrid because you need to max out energy storage.
4. You have no divine favor, so DF skills are quite useless to you.
5. Enchant removal can be a problem.
6. Your prots are weaker than a decked out prot monk

Very good points, I'll just add that:

1. The bar is highly compressed. Skills you absolutely need are Glyph of Swiftness and Ether Renewal. For Ether Renewal to work well, you also need at least another three enchantments. To put the huge health gain from ER to use, you want Infuse. This leaves you with a precious two slots to work with, and significantly drops your versatility. You can still fit in Draw Conditions and Convert Hexes if you have to though.
2. You are hybrid ... even with maxing out Energy Storage and Protection Prayers, a zero-spec Infuse Health is still strong, and qualifies as a heal. You're mainly Prot but can still heal.

@CelestialBeaver - things to note:

1. There are Monk elites that grant powerful effects you can't get from ER, eg. Life Barrier (for the builds that use it), Shield of Deflection (although you can substitute for this somewhat with Spirit Bond + Protective Spirit), RC, Divert Hexes and Peace and Harmony (though you can substitute somewhat too with Draw Conditions and Convert Hexes), and finally Healer's Boon / Unyielding Aura, which allows powerful Heal Party spam (again you can substitute somewhat with Heal Party + Mindbender). So while ER Elementalists kick out ten times the raw power of a real Monk, real Monks are still somewhat more versatile.
2. Not having access to Divine Favour skills is definitely a drawback. One skill that would probably see use if it were in the Protection Prayers or Energy Storage line is Divine Boon. With it you might even be able to drop Infuse Health. Too bad it's in Divine Favour though.
3. The build's utter reliance on a single skill is a definite drawback. Skills that remove more than one enchantment at a time are particularly bad, and while there aren't many areas where heavy enchantment removal is present (off the top of my head, only the Burning Forest in FoW and the Greater Blood Drinkers at Urgoz) it is still always a threat. You might get KD'ed while putting up ER, or interrupted, etc, wherupon you really need to play more conservatively. You can macromanage against this, yes ... but it is still a weakness.
4. The build's lower Protection Prayers is also a clear drawback. While it doesn't matter much, you can't argue that it doesn't matter at all, can you?
5. You can't have 11 Energy Storage, 11 Heal and 10 Prot. You can't have 11 Energy Storage, 10 Heal and 10 Prot either. That's because you need 4 Air (make Glyph of Swiftness last two spells).

I stand by what I wrote in the original thread: Ether Renewal Elementalist healers have some extremely powerful strengths, but also some extremely glaring weaknesses.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

1. There are Monk elites that grant powerful effects you can't get from ER, eg. Life Barrier (for the builds that use it), Shield of Deflection (although you can substitute for this somewhat with Spirit Bond + Protective Spirit), RC, Divert Hexes and Peace and Harmony (though you can substitute somewhat too with Draw Conditions and Convert Hexes), and finally Healer's Boon / Unyielding Aura, which allows powerful Heal Party spam (again you can substitute somewhat with Heal Party + Mindbender). So while ER Elementalists kick out ten times the raw power of a real Monk, real Monks are still somewhat more versatile.

All good points. Monks are still more versatile, meaning that they can customize their build better for each area. In heavy hex areas, even Reverse Hex is not enough, P&H is more useful.

I agree with all your other points.

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5. You can't have 11 Energy Storage, 11 Heal and 10 Prot. You can't have 11 Energy Storage, 10 Heal and 10 Prot either. That's because you need 4 Air (make Glyph of Swiftness last two spells).

Not sure why you would necessarily need to make GoS last 2 spells. That depends on your skill bar. If you bring a longer recharge spell like MindBender, having a GoS that lasts for 2 spells would certainly help. Otherwise I dont see why that is necessary.

ER prot+infuse may make it easier for people to play the role of a decent monk by spamming and over healing, but an experienced monk is still more versatile and better in the long run.

Snow Bunny · Feb 03, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

[ether renewal][aura of restoration][protective spirit][Infuse Health][Life attunement][heal party][Aegis][glyph of swiftness]

I'm in class now, and don't have the time to think of a serious build, but wouldn't something like that work?

AtomicMew · Feb 03, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Just curious, what do you bring on Monk bars if you don't have healing power (as implied by not having Heal Party + Mindbender) as well as no prots (as implied by not having Protective Spirit)? That ought to give you a clue that you're misreading my post.

Honestly, I think you're just being an ass, as implied by (Do you have any idea what the standard ER bars are?) (Sorry, but you are not better than me lol.)

The "standard" bar imo is:
[mindbender][heal party][infuse health][protective spirit][great dwarf weapon][glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][aura of restoration]

Let's see what you said:
although why are you running Mindbender when the bar is so compressed already and the only skill that takes longer than 1/4 second to cast is ER itself?
That's wrong, since heal party is a 2 second cast.

ER healers have weaknesses, and they are glaring. If you end up in situations where everyone takes damage at the same time (eg. Wurm Bile @ Frostmaw's, some people mistakenly standing together and eating an Elementalist boss'es Rodgort's Invocation) then you are weak.
That's wrong, since you spam heal party.

Sure you can powerheal with Infuse every 2 seconds, but you can't cope with massive party degen, and every consecutive Infuse is weaker.
Wrong, since you can actually spam infuse every ONE second. Oh and also, each consecutive infuse is actually NOT weaker.

but there's no such thing as not protting and relying on Infuse in HM. You will die, monsters simply deal too much damage.
Yeah, you must prot, that's why you take protective spirit.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Honestly, I think you're just being an ass, as implied by (Do you have any idea what the standard ER bars are?) (Sorry, but you are not better than me lol.)

The "standard" bar imo is:
[mindbender][heal party][infuse health][protective spirit][great dwarf weapon][glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][aura of restoration]

I would rather bring [[Breath of the Great Dwarf] than [[heal party] with that bar and make sure that I have at least 4 to air for a 2-spell GoS.

Zodiac Meteor · Feb 03, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Wrong, since you can actually spam infuse every ONE second. Oh and also, each consecutive infuse is actually NOT weaker.

How fast can you spam infuse? 1/4th second casting, 0 recharge. Set, I can only spam it every 1/2 a second even though I have 2 keys microed to infuse. This build is scary good.

I did Heart of Shiverpeaks with my Ele healer build. I did with with 2 people.
3 RoJway heroes, 1 E-surge player, 2 Searing flames heroes and 1 warrior hero. The RoJway best heal was [[smiters boon] and [[reversal of damage]. The worm went down in one round.

The funny thing is, this warrior was also doing the quest looking for people. I pinged him my build and he kicked me. I ranked him and went to get someone else. He got 6 players, I got one. We left at the same time. We finished with 3 deaths. I got a Magmus Staff and the other player got a Embercrest Staff, r9 divine... When I headed back to Eye of the North. The same warrior was spamming "LFP 3/8 HoS."

That made my day. I /rank him and logged off.

The point is once this catches on, this will happen.

Ether Renewal PvE - Benefits only affects Elementalist spells now.

AtomicMew · Feb 03, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I would rather bring [[Breath of the Great Dwarf] than [[heal party] with that bar and make sure that I have at least 4 to air for a 2-spell GoS.

Yeah BotGD works too, but mindbender + heal party is stronger IMO. The amount of healing you get from that combo is inSANE... not that infuse spam isn't already insane lol.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yeah BotGD works too, but mindbender + heal party is stronger IMO. The amount of healing you get from that combo is inSANE... not that infuse spam isn't already insane lol.

But with BotGD you dont need to put any points into healing and you wont need MindBender. What is your attribute spread like?

Cebe · Feb 03, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

But with BotGD you dont need to put any points into healing and you wont need MindBender. What is your attribute spread like?

Insufe Health is also in Healing Prayers...

I guess you could run a full ER + Protection bar but what would be the point?

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Insufe Health is also in Healing Prayers...

I guess you could run a full ER + Protection bar but what would be the point?

Infuse Health is special. It works well even with 0 healing prayers.

The point of full ER + protection would be max effectiveness/duration for your protection spells and you dont have to renew ER as often (i.e. fewer down time during battle).

Jeydra · Feb 03, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Not sure why you would necessarily need to make GoS last 2 spells. That depends on your skill bar. If you bring a longer recharge spell like MindBender, having a GoS that lasts for 2 spells would certainly help. Otherwise I dont see why that is necessary.

ER prot+infuse may make it easier for people to play the role of a decent monk by spamming and over healing, but an experienced monk is still more versatile and better in the long run.

The main reason to have Glyph of Swiftness last two spells is to allow you extra room to move in - for example, if you use Glyph of Swiftness and someone takes serious damage in the meantime, you can now cast Infuse before putting ER up. Once I went from 0 Air to 4 Air (Ensign's original suggestion) and never looked back after. 4 spec in something isn't that hard to get to, and the rewards here are fairly great.

Personally I'm of opinion that ER Elementalists can rival and even exceed real Monks, if the area in question is right.

@traversc - interesting bar, I'll give it a try whenever. By the way 63 health every 2 seconds is certainly not impressive, although it's better than nothing - have you seen HB Monks casting Heal Party for 2.5 times the health every 2 seconds? No Spirit Bond on that bar is a little jarring, and you only have two spells to spam for energy and health with ... but I'll give it a try once I find a Minor Air rune somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I guess you could run a full ER + Protection bar but what would be the point?

Mainly a much more powerful Spirit Bond, and Life Attunement.

AtomicMew · Feb 04, 2009, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

But with BotGD you dont need to put any points into healing and you wont need MindBender. What is your attribute spread like?

Probably 11-11-8-3? Prot spirit doesn't need many points so 8 is fine, like the WoH hybrid.

Age · Feb 05, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Monks would still be better as you would need this WoH or ZB it heal yourself up with those being elites.Monks also have thier divine favour bonus and they don't need the energy of an Ele.

Improvavel · Feb 05, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

The point is once this catches on, this will happen.

Ether Renewal PvE - Benefits only affects Elementalist spells now.

You forgot the mid stage - after it catches on u will have tons of threads asking for nerf because everybody and their mother can do stuff with 0 skill.

bungusmaximus · Feb 05, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You forgot the mid stage - after it catches on u will have tons of threads asking for nerf because everybody and their mother can do stuff with 0 skill.

Bah protting and infusing requires way more skill then running ursan/CoP/Whatever broken lolcrap.

Parson Brown · Feb 07, 2009, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Are we sure this still works? I tried it out on Isle of Nameless and did not gain back the health lost to Infuse.