Curse

wtfisgoingon · May 06, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

So, its been a while since Shadowsteps have been nerfed to all professions.
Why does Anet rather remove Shadowsteps from all professions in high-end PvP, instead of putting Shadowsteps into the Assassins primary attribute?

Why is it not better to give Assassins the Shadowstepping ability back and give them back the entrance to GvG?
Why has Anet decided to just remove them from high-end PvP?
And why has Anet tried to make the Sin comabt style to that of a GvG Warrior?
Why aren't they making the Sin into something different from the other two melees, why are they trying to make all the melees play the same as the typical GvG Warrior?

Thoughts?

M1EK · May 06, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Shadowsteps are broken. Izzy said that removing skills entirely is hard, so instead they just nerf them to oblivion. See: [smiter's boon].

xXDragonorFuryXx · May 06, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

i just ordered factions so i wouldnt know but assassins arent aloud in guild versus guild?

that sucks

wtfisgoingon · May 06, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1EK

Shadowsteps are broken. Izzy said that removing skills entirely is hard, so instead they just nerf them to oblivion. See: [smiter's boon].

Give it to Assassins only? Giving them zero opportunity is the way to go? Give them back something unique and different from the other two melees, dont try to make them all the same. At least link the Shadowsteps to their primary attribute, or handicap the Shadowsteps towards non-sins.

moriz · May 06, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

they are allowed, but they're just not any good in gvg anymore, other than byob (that is, bring your own build randomway gvg). as such, nobody uses them.

btw, even if shadowsteps becomes assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them in gvg. there's no need for them in gvg anymore, since they are bad at ganking the lord, and ganking npcs is not nearly as important as before.

M1EK · May 06, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Give it to Assassins only? Giving them zero opportunity is the way to go? Give them back something unique and different from the other two melees, dont try to make them all the same. At least link the Shadowsteps to their primary attribute, or handicap the Shadowsteps towards non-sins.

Shadowstep mechanic impedes on too many other mechanics to ever be "fixed." It should just be removed (but then Assassins will be even worse).

wtfisgoingon · May 06, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1EK

Shadowstep mechanic impedes on too many other mechanics to ever be "fixed." It should just be removed (but then Assassins will be even worse).

Thats why I said link it to crit attribute or handicap towards non-sins. At least sins will have full benefits when using their shadowsteps. Maybe then we'll see sins being in GvG similar to rangers, where they only need 1 or 2 in each match. Im just asking why remove them completely? Is this fair to the sin community?

moriz · May 06, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

and what would their function be then?

here's the problem with your argument: even IF all shadowsteps are suddenly assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them. why? because gvg right now does not need another rogue-style character that is highly mobile. warriors and rangers have that covered between them. assassins are certainly more mobile, but that doesn't matter. that mobility won't do anything when the character using it is a glass cannon and cannot sustain damage, nor can provide consistent disruption.

wtfisgoingon · May 06, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and what would their function be then?

here's the problem with your argument: even IF all shadowsteps are suddenly assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them. why? because gvg right now does not need another rogue-style character that is highly mobile. warriors and rangers have that covered between them.

If warriors has the mobility of sin, then what is the point of introducing the sin?
that means they need to nerf warriors' mobility. and give that function back to assassins?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

assassins are certainly more mobile, but that doesn't matter. that mobility won't do anything when the character using it is a glass cannon and cannot sustain damage, nor can provide consistent disruption.

sins are swifter in short bursts. in the long run the warrior can outrun the sin.
they cannot deal consistent damage, yes.
but at least give them back their spike potential with the surprise element of shadowsteps,
they dont need to be consistently attacking like the warrior.... we already have two melees like that, we dont need a third, we also DONT want a third like that.
give them another playstyle, give them back the hit and run style with the aid of shadowstepping...

so, it looks like the problem is that:
they've given the warrior TOO MUCH, all in one => armor, spike potential, ability to fake spikes, mobility. pretty much everything every other melee has and better.

solution?
nerf warriors?
but there will obviously be too many warrior players who will defend this, as they want to keep their warrior staying superior.

moriz · May 06, 2009, 02:24 AM // 02:24

they don't have the mobility of a sin, but it doesn't matter. i've covered why with my prior post.

M1EK · May 06, 2009, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Thats why I said link it to crit attribute or handicap towards non-sins. At least sins will have full benefits when using their shadowsteps. Maybe then we'll see sins being in GvG similar to rangers, where they only need 1 or 2 in each match. Im just asking why remove them completely? Is this fair to the sin community?

Keeping them in use is unfair to every other player who has worked hard to learn and understand the techniques regarding positioning, projectiles, terrain use, watching the battlefield, etc.

HawkofStorms · May 06, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

You want to make HB's even more broken? Not that anybody actually cares about that, but it is a concern.

Sins have their place, which is as a ganking class to be used in low end PvP where you won't have counters or competent monks (RA, FA, JQ, etc). In those places, the sin shines, even being able to kill characters that can shut them down like air eles if they time their spike right.
Put in higher end PvP, you need sustained pressure damage + spikes to be able to wear down the healers. The only use to extend the range of shadowcasting would be for flag running (which was the reason it was first nerfed anyways).
Sins 1>2>3 chaining just isn't good in PvP where there can be quick prots and shutdown. Shadowstepping, while gimmicky, is not the sins real problem. The only thing that could save the sins now is to give them OP elites like MoI, but somehow make it so that only a sin can use it instead of a Me/A caster.

wtfisgoingon · May 06, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1EK

Keeping them in use is unfair to every other player who has worked hard to learn and understand the techniques regarding positioning, projectiles, terrain use, watching the battlefield, etc.

you've said so much, but all you're trying to say is ''positoning''
and cannot seem to accept the fact that a new form of pvp combat style has been introduced.
what exactly are you complaining about the shadowstepping problem?
if sins shadowstep, they require no awareness in positioning? no effort needed?
unable to pre prot?

well, all those seem like the unique sin playstyle has to offer. adapt to it, and learn how to counter that.

a warrior can do the same, he can fake a spike and just attack the next guy next to him, do you call that unable to pre prot too or what?

there simply isnt anything unbalanced for sin ONLY to use their own shadowstep as intended. but it is not okay for the warrior and dervish to do so.

M1EK · May 06, 2009, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

you've said so much, but all you're trying to say it ''positoning''
what exactly are you complaining about the shadowstepping problem?
if sins shadowstep, they require no awareness in positioning? no effort needed?
unable to pre prot?

well, all those seem like the unique sin playstyle has to offer. adapt to it, and learn how to counter that.

a warrior can do the same, he can fake a spike and just attack the next guy next to him, do you call that unable to pre prot too or what?

there simply isnt anything unbalanced for sin ONLY to use their own shadowstep as intended. but it is not okay for the warrior and dervish to do so.

If you think that every problem I mentioned is the same, I feel no need to continue this discussion.

wtfisgoingon · May 06, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

so, it looks like nobody has been 100% sure where the problem lies

some are against sins because of their shdaowsteps requiring minimal positioning skills and gimmicky (this i believe is the most ridiculous/unsuccessful argument against sins)
some are against their 123 chain combo being inferior (this, i will have to semi agree....)

why dont we get Anet's word on what exactly is the problem is....

moriz · May 06, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

well then, show us where they actually require skill, other than the bare minimums of battlefield awareness, positioning, and target selection (as well as a little bit of timing, but that goes into battlefield awareness).

outside of those three things, assassin play generally involves pressing skills in exact order, which is not particularly taxing. and yes, your counter to this would be "every other profession is just pressing skills in order", and at that point, you'll lose your argument because you've just pwned yourself. so please save us the effort and not make that argument.

FoxBat · May 06, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and yes, your counter to this would be "every other profession is just pressing skills in order"

Pretty close to the current WE, LC/PoD, smite meta...

SpiritThief · May 06, 2009, 03:54 AM // 03:54

B/c they would have to put fourth effort to make the Dervish, Paragon and Ritualist more useful too then.

wtfisgoingon · May 06, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1EK

Your questions have already been answered. Shadowstepping has been made useless because it is broken and having useful shadowsteps in any form would break the game even more. They are not being converted into Warrior style characters, as you can see, they're being converted into wasted KB on the servers.

looks like you were tempted and couldnt resist not to reply, hehe. welcome
back

your reply about shadowstep being broken isnt a successful viable argument.

how is it broken?
if you are going to say, it requires no skill, requires no battlefield awareness, and monks not being able to pre-prot.

scroll back up, because i've already replied to those arguments, which is why i've said the ''positioning'' argument is unsuccessful and absurd.

the only argument i find actually viable in this thread is from Hawk
''123 combo chain being inferior, unable to fake spikes etc.''

but, not like its intended for assassins to ''fake'' spikes anyway...

moriz · May 06, 2009, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

looks like you were tempted and couldnt resist not to reply, hehe. welcome
back

your reply about shadowstep being broken isnt a successful viable argument.

how is it broken?
if you are going to say, it requires no skill, requires no battlefield awareness, and monks not being able to pre-prot.

scroll back up, because i've already replied to those arguments, which is why i've said the ''positioning'' argument is unsuccessful and absurd.

you've failed to do so. if you want to defeat an argument, you give examples, or at least theorycraft, which counters that argument. all you've said is "your argument makes no sense", which means nothing except that you don't understand the argument.

and before this devolves even further (though this will certainly help it along): the OP is the same person who suggested that dash should have a 5 second duration, and flamed and attempted to estalk me after i disagreed. just a helpful reminder as to who we're dealing with here.