Curse

TryingToVanquish · Jun 16, 2009, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

CritScythe Sin is brutal , no doubt about that.

Yeah but now all sins haters are saying that ench removal prevails 99% of the game. Thats why 55 hp chars farm more than half of the game ....

oh wait ...

Nobody said there's enchantment removal 99% of the game. Half of the game? So the other half, there's enchantment removals.

Quote:

Dont pay attention to that , there is more rage than reason on those words. Its like "yeah your football team is better but my boots are cooler than yours" .

You're not trying hard enough.

ITT: Assassins that are biased of their own profession and proceeds to ignore facts.

Forgotton200 · Jun 16, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Hey guys, I actually don't play warrior or assassin (primary necro). I was just reading through the threads and typed out what has been said in my own words. lol i troll u, have fun arguing in this thread, I'd like to see which one is actually the best dps'er. I won't be bothering anymore, enjoy the thread.

The Scorpion Knight · Jun 17, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

I would have to say Assassin, even though Warrior is my main. I've played both classes, and Assassins seem to be able to have a better maintainable DPS.

Windf0rce · Jun 17, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Warrior or Assassin, but I'm not sure.

Theoretically the Assassin dishes out the most DPS, it is challenging for a Warrior to keep up with the MS/DB/Crit Agi combo.

In the easier areas of the game and normal mode, I found my Assassin to be killing a bit faster than my Warrior, not needing to retreat or get out of the battle much. Just go in, 'tank' with Critical Agility and kill.

However things seem to change a little in 'higher end PvE' and Hard Mode. With my Assassin I would constantly watch the surroundings to check if I could go in, stay in, or get out. As a Warrior I felt it was easier to simply stay in a mob and dish out some serious hurting (while being able to take a lot more too), while many times my Assassin would need to back off (therefore dealing 0 damage...).

Seems like a matter of preference, with Warrior and Assassin in a pretty close race. I feel more confident as a Warrior though, when it comes to the harder areas - the balance between staying power and high damage certainly means very good maintainable DPS.

Jaigoda · Jun 17, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Alright, I'm probably stepping out of the discussion because at the moment it's going nowhere and there's too much bias on each side to get a real answer.

Still, I know for a fact that using GPS is not a problem in the vast majority of HM (hell, I even used it in NM most of the time). If things are going to die too soon, you ping the target so henchies continue to attack it, then you switch targets. If it's above 50% when you would normally Moebius and you think it'll die before you can get to it a second time, you just autoattack once. It's not that hard, you just can't cspace everything and expect to get a perfect recharge each time.

Also, even if (less than) half the game has enchantment removal, it's still pretty managable as long as it isn't crazy sh*t where the mobs have about 5 copies of fast-recharging removal (or AoE removal like Rada's example of the Incubus... ugh, I hate those things). If you don't know how to get around enchantment removal, good for you, just stop saying it's that big of a factor.

@Windf0rce, warriors give a false sense of security. If you want to include insignia, Assassins can keep up 111 AL. At max with insignia, warriors have 116 AL, and a 5 armor difference is NOT going to change the course of a fight. Armor, and survivability in general, is really not a problem for either profession.

Nodakim · Jun 17, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Who cares?
Like that DPS test actualy means anything in real PVE.
To be honest both Warriors and Assassins suck in General PVE.
Much.

Picuso · Jun 17, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodakim

To be honest both Warriors and Assassins suck in General PVE.

Ignorance is Bliss

Perfected Shadow · Jun 17, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

As long as Warriors push out more utility with the DPS being better under certain circumstances, they'll be better at both.

So you're saying that warrior dps is better under certain circumstances thus they are better at dps? /scratchhead

Anyway it's just too hard to compare in game. Really, wtb combat log.

faraaz · Jun 17, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Combat log was provided and summarily ignored by the pro warrior peeps (except Picuso

) because apparently its a "gimmick"...although I fail to see how numbers lie. The problem is Warriors work on a war of attrition basis...they put out Save Yourselves, they KD stuff...they help control the battlefield.

Assassins on the other hand, walk to a mob and demolish it in 1/3rd of the time Warriors would need, removing the need for the "uber utility lol gimmick" mentality. Seriously...there are very few things you cannot beat down with brute force using the crit scythe or scan + death blossom build (the latter of which can bring SY! too btw), where a Warrior would have made a world of difference, and in those situations you adapt, as do all teams designed for areas like Slavers, Vloxen HM etc etc.

However, we have the following to contend with:

Windf0rce · Jun 17, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

@Windf0rce, warriors give a false sense of security. If you want to include insignia, Assassins can keep up 111 AL. At max with insignia, warriors have 116 AL, and a 5 armor difference is NOT going to change the course of a fight. Armor, and survivability in general, is really not a problem for either profession.

I understand that. However the Assassins' extra armor is still conditional, while Warriors have it permanently; no need to be afraid of Enchantment stripping or under constant pressure to attack for Insiginas to work.

Besides, Assassins' highest damage weapons are both 2-handed (Scythe, Dagger), while Warriors' Axe or Sword (both having very high DPS builds) are one-handed and allow a Shield, which translates into another +30 Health and a potential +Armor inscription. If an Assassin tries to match a Warrior's armor with Insignias, it's another bunch of HP lost, giving the Warrior an upper hand of up to 75 Health; which is very significative.

That being said I didn't have much problems with Assassins in Hard More either, they were pretty good too, I just had to be more careful. The point is that Warriors feel more balanced between offense and defense.

Maybe I feel safer on a War because he looks so buff. lol.

Kendel · Jun 17, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

I understand that. However the Assassins' extra armor is still conditional, while Warriors have it permanently; no need to be afraid of Enchantment stripping or under constant pressure to attack for Insiginas to work.

Besides, Assassins' highest damage weapons are both 2-handed (Scythe, Dagger), while Warriors' Axe or Sword (both having very high DPS builds) are one-handed and allow a Shield, which translates into another +30 Health and a potential +Armor inscription. If an Assassin tries to match a Warrior's armor with Insignias, it's another bunch of HP lost, giving the Warrior an upper hand of up to 75 Health; which is very significative.

That being said I didn't have much problems with Assassins in Hard More either, they were pretty good too, I just had to be more careful. The point is that Warriors feel more balanced between offense and defense.

Maybe I feel safer on a War because he looks so buff. lol.

I'm going with what faraaz said above, your clearly just biased.

Assassins run critical scythe, a 2 handed, because it kicks out so much more damage than the Warrior can its ridiculous. Daggers can kick out an immense amount of damage too.

Oh but the armour is conditional and/or subject to removal, big whoop. A standard Crit Sin will have 3 enchantments, Crit Agi, Crit Defences and Way of the Master. Along with anything else the party casts, Withering Aura makes for a great cover enchantment cast by your MM hero. If the vital enchantments are NOT removed you have 75% block and +25 AL, along with either +15 if you went Nightstalkers or +10 if you went with Blessed, i chose the latter because you can't always be attacking.

But, but, but, a Warrior uses a 1 handed weapon and a shield! Seriously? Is that the best you can come up with? Is it impossible to run Critical Triple Chop? You won't get unless you lower Crit Strikes for a shield but the option is there. And i can guarantee you will still have higher DPS than the warrior version.

Warriors run no defence. They rely 100% on there higher base armour. Who the hell still uses Tactics instead of going 13 Strength 14-16 Weapon skills? Yes they are a bit more 'secure' in there higher armour capacity which is why its generally not ideal to request your Assassin tanks (something that isn't necessary outside of elite areas really). The Sins actually have defence in the form of 75% block. Neither class is balanced between offence and defence, they both spec heavily in offence.

Windf0rce · Jun 17, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

I'm going with what faraaz said above, your clearly just biased.

Assassins run critical scythe, a 2 handed, because it kicks out so much more damage than the Warrior can its ridiculous. Daggers can kick out an immense amount of damage too.

Oh but the armour is conditional and/or subject to removal, big whoop. A standard Crit Sin will have 3 enchantments, Crit Agi, Crit Defences and Way of the Master. Along with anything else the party casts, Withering Aura makes for a great cover enchantment cast by your MM hero. If the vital enchantments are NOT removed you have 75% block and +25 AL, along with either +15 if you went Nightstalkers or +10 if you went with Blessed, i chose the latter because you can't always be attacking.

But, but, but, a Warrior uses a 1 handed weapon and a shield! Seriously? Is that the best you can come up with? Is it impossible to run Critical Triple Chop? You won't get unless you lower Crit Strikes for a shield but the option is there. And i can guarantee you will still have higher DPS than the warrior version.

Warriors run no defence. They rely 100% on there higher base armour. Who the hell still uses Tactics instead of going 13 Strength 14-16 Weapon skills? Yes they are a bit more 'secure' in there higher armour capacity which is why its generally not ideal to request your Assassin tanks (something that isn't necessary outside of elite areas really). The Sins actually have defence in the form of 75% block. Neither class is balanced between offence and defence, they both spec heavily in offence.

Wow, someone is getting a little defensive here.

Please note that I never said in any of my previous posts that Warriors had better or worse DPS. I just don't feel it can be accurately measured, it is too situational. I've played both characters and posted out my personal impressions, that's about it - both very good DPS and I simply felt safer/less pressured as a Warrior.

I don't remember having stated my Warrior ran any defense either. The bars I run in PvE (PvP too) are pretty much 100% offensive (except for SY! when needed), it's just that the Warriors' natural armor/health combination will surpass the Assassin even if the Assassin comes up Crit Agility or Insignia bonuses.

My point being, Warriors felt more resilient even running a 100% offensive bar, so they usually felt more laid back and less stressful to play, while dealing very steady DPS, to me anyway.

Last but not least, just as a side note you talk about cover enchantments but you probably forgot that CritAgi comes back on top of all enchants if it is renewed - so you basically cannot reliably cover it. Not that it is a big deal, just wanted to point it out.

Kendel · Jun 17, 2009, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

Last but not least, just as a side note you talk about cover enchantments but you probably forgot that CritAgi comes back on top of all enchants if it is renewed - so you basically cannot reliably cover it. Not that it is a big deal, just wanted to point it out.

Sure Agility/Defences refresh to the top after each critical. But 99% of enchantment removal comes in the first 3 seconds as your engaging. So all you've gotta do is cover your vital enchantments with a couple of spammable ones, get those removed on the way in, then kill as normal. Works against all but the most excessive enchantment removal areas.

Bobby2 · Jun 17, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Who the hell still uses Tactics instead of going 13 Strength 14-16 Weapon skills?

*raises hand*

TryingToVanquish · Jun 17, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

snip

Jaigoda, have you every played your assassin in a good party? In a good group, everything dies fast. Which means chaining your 1-2-3-4-3-4-3-4 for a "good dps" isn't realistic. It's like spiteful spirit, if the mob is alive for long, it's doing good damage but in the end, your group just sucks because in a good party, it won't be alive for long. Let's end the Death blossom/Moebius strike here, it's not great.

As for crit scythe, it does huge armor sensitive damage. From wiki, The exact damage of a critical hit is based on a simple formula: The weapon's maximum damage multiplied by the square root of 2 (1.414...). Why are elementalist's damage sub-par in hard mode? 110 dmg SF looks nice, but in HM, that armor sensitive damage is doing 30 damage. "Armor sensitive damage = poo." Same goes for scythe, but they have many nice pve buffs unlike elementalist, which a warrior can be buffed as well. The +dmg from Scythe skills is a joke. Power attack is much better. There's better source of deep wound from the PvE skill, I let the AP/MoP Nec or other casters in my group handle those. Also, damage conversion makes critscythe a bad team synergy. Not to mention you lose +100 AL for the party from SY!. Also, enchantment removal means your dps and AL drops significantly.

Faraaz, you probably know this, but you're contradicting yourself.

Showing the damage by hitting a 60AL Master of Damage (MoD) is pointless. 60AL means your scythe's armor sensitive damage isn't affected, same as how a SF elementalist can do godly damage in normal mode, where AL is much lower than hard mode.

Locust Fury sins > DB/MS, Crit scythe. Locust fury sins is the best maintainable DPS that our profession can provide.

Providing unrealistic example is a bad example. This goes for the Death blossom/Moebius strike spam, which can't be spammed in a good group. This also goes for the crit scythe and its armor sensitive damage, which is mediocre. I'm no fan of warrior, I'm just explaining to you assassins to stop running shit build and use Locust fury for the best maintainable DPS that our profession can provide.

AtomicMew · Jun 18, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Winforce is spot on. Assassin's defense is conditional and subject to strip. (A side note, whoever said 99% of enchantment removal comes in the first 3 seconds... lol.) A warrior is just more resilient and more consistent.

This thread is basically done.

A warrior has more utils and more consistent defense. An unfettered assassin can dish out more DPS than a warrior could ever hope for.

Let everyone just agree on that.

TryingToVanquish · Jun 18, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Winforce is spot on. Assassin's defense is conditional and subject to strip. (A side note, whoever said 99% of enchantment removal comes in the first 3 seconds... lol.) A warrior is just more resilient and more consistent.

This thread is basically done.

A warrior has more utils and more consistent defense. An unfettered assassin can dish out DPS on par with a warrior.

Let everyone just agree on that.

Fixed.

12chars.

Kendel · Jun 18, 2009, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Winforce is spot on. Assassin's defense is conditional and subject to strip. (A side note, whoever said 99% of enchantment removal comes in the first 3 seconds... lol.) A warrior is just more resilient and more consistent.

Sorry have you never played PvE?

Mob vs Enchantments = ooo enchantments *casts Shatter Enchantment immediately*

That is fact, any caster with enchantment removal in PvE will almost certainly cast it the instant they see an enchantment, not 10 seconds into the fight. Hell if your petrified of enchantment removal on your Crits, cast them AFTER you've agroed.

This thread is about maintainable DPS, not, maintainable DPS while in a massive enchantment removal zone, or maintainable DPS while tanking 2 Warden mobs in Urgoz. Your average fight in HM does not need them to endure massive damage because they blocked they had to block the entire mob. If you wanna get picky, Sin can run Assassins Remedy, therefore while the Warrior is complaining at his monks for not curing him of Blind the Sin is killing things. Or perhaps the Dervish has the highest dps because while the other 2 are complaining about Blurred Vision and other slow hexes, the Dwayna Derv is happily removing them with every attack.

And more to the point... what utils? Since anything from Tactics that actually helps allies has been nerfed into the ground that leaves you with Save Yourselves and ANYONE not using a secondary can run.

TryingToVanquish · Jun 18, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Edit: Added it here instead http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=75

Bobby2 · Jun 18, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Don't follow calls, claim dibs on clean targets/high-level foes.