Curse

Paul Dawg · Jun 14, 2009, 08:25 AM // 08:25

That's just not true. If one guy's damage relies largely on stances, inherent damage, etc., and another guy's damage relies largely on enchantments and combo chains, guess whose DPS is going to translate better into general PvE?

Although I tend to be on the war side of this dispute, I will say that sins are capable of isolated eye-popping spikes that wars can't match. But they can't do the same sustainable DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

MoD is the best way of comparing damage. In two similar builds, the damage will at least mostly translate to general PvE. Melee builds are especially easy to compare, because the vast majority focus simply on shitting out damage.

Tenebrae · Jun 14, 2009, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Yeah traversc AIDS is an acronym but cant be an illness too right ? GG dude you win ok ? Keep misreading and misunderstanding as much as you want to drop sht on ppl coments because the slightest "contradiction" ( in your world ) or anyone who disagrees with you is totally wrong . You win dude , i wont care about your posts anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

That's just not true. If one guy's damage relies largely on stances, inherent damage, etc., and another guy's damage relies largely on enchantments and combo chains, guess whose DPS is going to translate better into general PvE?

Although I tend to be on the war side of this dispute, I will say that sins are capable of isolated eye-popping spikes that wars can't match. But they can't do the same sustainable DPS.

Not true but not a lie . There are so many factors in "general PvE" that affect DPS that counting the "things" or aspects wich are inherent of each profession is also not fair. Even switching targets ( when that target dies ) lowers your DPS when there are few foes . Is there a "fair" zone to do the test ? any place where both profs WITH BUFFS ( coz thats what the thread is about , mantained or not ) can do it with or without heroes ? you tell me please.

Jaigoda · Jun 14, 2009, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

*Snip*

Can you get any more anal, dude? Even I can see that he meant "DPS is something you can test." Yeah, he didn't word it perfectly, because he's a human being and real people actually make mistakes. Does that mean you have to get into a quote war because of ****ing word usage? Also, he never said that MoD DPS translated directly into the game, he only said that it was an ideal way of comparing similar builds in terms of DPS.

Also, a MS>DB 'Sin can easily keep up around 110 sustainable DPS. Sins have adapted to PvE and very few are actually focused on non-maintainable DPS; if you think otherwise, you should step out of the discussion now because obviously you don't know how PvE Sins work. And they are still comparable to warriors, as well as dervishes, simply because they are melee professions that focus almost solely on damage. Yes, Dervs and Sins rely on enchants, while most warriors don't, but that's simply a disadvantage to them, and is not a big enough difference to warrant not comparing each other. Also, as I've posted earlier, enchantment removal can be gotten around through cover enchants as well as making sure you're not the first target when entering battle.

AtomicMew · Jun 14, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah traversc AIDS is an acronym but cant be an illness too right ? GG dude you win ok ? Keep misreading and misunderstanding as much as you want to drop sht on ppl coments because the slightest "contradiction" ( in your world ) or anyone who disagrees with you is totally wrong . You win dude , i wont care about your posts anymore.

"DPS can be tested" and "DPS is a test" are different statements.

People bitching at me for playing the "semantics game" need to learn to read. IN CONTEXT tenebrae used the argument "DPS is a test" (and therefore realistic settings are irrelevant) to disagree with another poster that "warriors do more realistic DPS than sins" (in a realistic game setting).

Sorry, IN CONTEXT, it was made no longer a question of semantics. It was not me who started the argument.

@Jaigoda - sins are the most susceptible to enchantment removal of any melee class. Wars don't rely on enchantments, and unlike dervs, gain no benefit when removed.

Also, enchantment covers don't cut it... not even close. There are lots of skills that cut right through covers. Mass enchantment removal is also common. Not only that, but their IAS goes right to the front and can't be covered anyway

Quote:

There are so many factors in "general PvE" that affect DPS that counting the "things" or aspects wich are inherent of each profession is also not fair. Even switching targets ( when that target dies ) lowers your DPS when there are few foes . Is there a "fair" zone to do the test ? any place where both profs WITH BUFFS ( coz thats what the thread is about , mantained or not ) can do it with or without heroes ? you tell me please.

Agreed, there are many factors in PvE that affect DPS. To answer your question, there is no "fair" testing zone. However, that does not somehow make MoD any more fair. MoD is only reliable for testing very similar builds. (Sin vs. Sin, War vs. War, NOT Sin vs. War).

Jaigoda · Jun 14, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

@Jaigoda - sins are the most susceptible to enchantment removal of any melee class. Wars don't rely on enchantments, and unlike dervs, gain no benefit when removed.

Also, enchantment covers don't cut it... not even close. There are lots of skills that cut right through covers. Mass enchantment removal is also common. Not only that, but their IAS goes right to the front and can't be covered anyway

Dervishes also rely heavily on enchantments, and getting a few energy when they're removed does very little to help that. Yet when I play my derv I understand how to cover stuff and work around enchantment removal, and it's rarely a problem.

For assassins, the IAS only goes to the front if you've gotten a critical, and you don't get a critical until you start attacking. In other words, you can wait for the enchant removals to be used on others or your cover enchants, then attack, and everything's fine and dandy. Or, you can use Critical Defenses and have it covered anyway. If there's mass enchant removal, you wait for the casters to use their enchant removal, then use your enchants (or in the worst cases, bring something like an Assassin's Promise spiker that doesn't rely on enchants). And mass enchantment removal is only seen in a few areas of the game. Mostly it's 1-2 removals that are usually taken care of by proper positioning and cover enchantments. Again, enchantments should not be an argument against comparing the usefulness of Sins and Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Agreed, there are many factors in PvE that affect DPS. To answer your question, there is no "fair" testing zone. However, that does not somehow make MoD any more fair. MoD is only reliable for testing very similar builds. (Sin vs. Sin, War vs. War, NOT Sin vs. War).

If an assassin and a warrior both deal retarded amounts of damage, have similar defense and utility, and basically perform the same role in general, then MoD is perfectly fine to compare with. Under your definition, you could also compare a caster sin with MS>DB, which is a terrible comparison because they have different roles. Also, you wouldn't be able to compare Crit Barrage with a Barrage ranger, or Critscythe with a Dervish. Yeah, your argument just doesn't work.

AtomicMew · Jun 14, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Dervishes also rely heavily on enchantments, and getting a few energy when they're removed does very little to help that. Yet when I play my derv I understand how to cover stuff and work around enchantment removal, and it's rarely a problem.

Dervishes also get HP per enchantment, which is going to add up VERY quickly if you're trying to tank and monks are trying to prot you. MOST derv enchantments also have benefits on ending. Things like vital boon and avatars can make dervs far more tank-ish than a non-perma sin can ever be, while maintaining decent DPS.

Quote:

For assassins, the IAS only goes to the front if you've gotten a critical, and you don't get a critical until you start attacking. In other words, you can wait for the enchant removals to be used on others or your cover enchants, then attack, and everything's fine and dandy.

So in other words, you need to wait and let stuff beat on you and your teammates before you go in to attack them?

Quote:

Or, you can use Critical Defenses and have it covered anyway. If there's mass enchant removal, you wait for the casters to use their enchant removal, then use your enchants (or in the worst cases, bring something like an Assassin's Promise spiker that doesn't rely on enchants). And mass enchantment removal is only seen in a few areas of the game. Mostly it's 1-2 removals that are usually taken care of by proper positioning and cover enchantments.

I can't believe you're recommending CD and AP. CD is a terrible option, especially when a MS/DB bar is already tight. AP is fun... but ultimately inferior to other options.

Quote:

Again, enchantments should not be an argument against comparing the usefulness of Sins and Wars.

Yet... it is.

Quote:

If an assassin and a warrior both deal retarded amounts of damage, have similar defense and utility, and basically perform the same role in general, then MoD is perfectly fine to compare with.

The problem is, they DON'T have similar defense/utility. Warrior has stronger innate tanking ability and doesn't rely on enchantments. Godmode warrior can easily keep up SY! all the time. With MS/DB, it's POSSIBLE, but in practice not easy.

Quote:

Under your definition, you could also compare a caster sin with MS>DB, which is a terrible comparison because they have different roles. Also, you wouldn't be able to compare Crit Barrage with a Barrage ranger, or Critscythe with a Dervish. Yeah, your argument just doesn't work.

Now who is playing 'dude, anal' semantics? I even stated "compare similar builds."

Jaigoda · Jun 15, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Dervishes also get HP per enchantment, which is going to add up VERY quickly if you're trying to tank and monks are trying to prot you. MOST derv enchantments also have benefits on ending. Things like vital boon and avatars can make dervs far more tank-ish than a non-perma sin can ever be, while maintaining decent DPS.

You obviously do not understand dervishes. Yes, the health is a tad bit helpful, but there's only a few short-lived enchantments that you'll be using. RoF is rarely used now, so it's mostly like Patient and Guardian, and Orders if you're bringing it (which is baed, because you should be running Sab/Discord). Vital Boon is a bad skill that does little for the slot. The majority of Dervs never run it. And anyway, a melee's purpose is to provide damage; if a Derv brings Balth or Dwayna avvy, that's a big decrease in damage when you could be bringing Lyssa, WS, or Zealous Vow. If you're running Avvy Balth, I dare you to try and find a build that can come close to MS>DB or Critscythe DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

So in other words, you need to wait and let stuff beat on you and your teammates before you go in to attack them?

So in other words, DS+SY essentially has a 15-25 second downtime every 45 seconds where it can't maintain its normal (and already less than MS>DB) DPS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I can't believe you're recommending CD and AP. CD is a terrible option, especially when a MS/DB bar is already tight. AP is fun... but ultimately inferior to other options.

CD is a good option, and I don't have troubles fitting it on my bar (considering I use bar-compressing skills like Golden Phoenix Strike). MS>DB takes, like, 4 skills, so it's not THAT hard to fit stuff in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yet... it is.

Another thing to mention - just about every warrior build uses Flail, which gives a -33% IMS. While Enraging cancels it, it has a 20s recharge, meaning you can't spam it whenever. Chasing moving foes (very common against a lot of melees) or even simply switching targets is harder with Wars because of this. And I don't know about you, but I know of a lot more areas where enemies moving is a problem than is heavy enchantment removal (you're going to have to have at least 3 enchant removals to get rid of CA if you're smart).

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The problem is, they DON'T have similar defense/utility. Warrior has stronger innate tanking ability and doesn't rely on enchantments. Godmode warrior can easily keep up SY! all the time. With MS/DB, it's POSSIBLE, but in practice not easy.

MS>DB has 96AL. DS+SY has a mean of 106AL. That's pretty much the same damn amount. They're both very tankable, and are going to give the monks ample time to react. Also, utility means little when you can straight kill just about anything within 5 seconds. And Godmode warrior has less DPS, meaning you can't kill stuff as fast, meaning the monks have to keep stuff up for longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Now who is playing 'dude, anal' semantics? I even stated "compare similar builds."

I'm arguing against your argument itself, not your word usage. You say yourself that inter-profession comparisons should not be used, and I gave an argument against it. Enchantment usage and slight differences in defense are differences, but do not warrant the two uncomparable.

RadaArashi · Jun 15, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Why not just make an Assassin and a Warrior, outfit them with their optimal equipment and DPS skillbars and ask the Master of Damage who has the best DPS? Then we can take in consideration the other variables like AL, AoE (Death Blosson and Whirlwind) and so on.

Jaigoda · Jun 15, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

Why not just make an Assassin and a Warrior, outfit them with their optimal equipment and DPS skillbars and ask the Master of Damage who has the best DPS? Then we can take in consideration the other variables like AL, AoE (Death Blosson and Whirlwind) and so on.

This has to be one of the better posts in the thread.

Here's my contribution:

I promise that there were no outside effects, and the only skills used on me or the Master of Damage are the ones you see on the skill bar. I also only have 2 in Asura rank. For fun, I'll also include one with a few buffs:

maxxfury · Jun 15, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Your DPS count at master of damage is basically your CLEAN Dps.

Perfect situation, no outside factors, meaning its good to check your dps at peak efficiency. BEFORE all outside issues are factored in.

Then the problem with comparing different classes is balancing up what outside factors are going to cut that dps down.
:enchant removal
:hex's
:conditions
:mobs movement/positioning/distance apart
:stances
ect.

And which apply to the classes that are been compared..so judgment call/opinion, which is always going to differ slightly person to person factoring personal bias also. (which almost everyone does have to slight degree)

As to whats has the best sustainable dps(@ MoD or in real play) in the past WHEN played warrior and sin....warrior took that one quite easily. BUT that was pre powercreep skills like Crit agility. So i cant actually make a justified honest comment on the game now.

*missed some posts, oops. Some of what i posted has been said earlier.

Picuso · Jun 15, 2009, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

Why not just make an Assassin and a Warrior, outfit them with their optimal equipment and DPS skillbars and ask the Master of Damage who has the best DPS? Then we can take in consideration the other variables like AL, AoE (Death Blosson and Whirlwind) and so on.

Alone:

Buffed ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected]):

P.S: Fastest test evah. I think I can upgrade it. Trying with [email protected]
P.S2: DPS Dropped to 95 (Alone) testing for 180 seconds.

EDIT:
Buffed2 ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected]):

With [email protected], DPS will be about 190.

Forgotton200 · Jun 15, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Maintainable DPS - Which Profession Is Best?

Warriors. The problem I'm having with my assassin is that mobs dies too fast to activate moebius strike. Golden fox strike ---> Wild strike and mobs are already dead. If I go with Golden Phoenix Strike --> Dual attack, Just those two and it's dead so I have to wait for the long recharge since it won't activate moebius strike. If your party can't kill general PvE mobs(non-boss) within a second or two, you're doing something wrong. On my warrior, I can start off by dragon slash right away. Also, enchantment strip is common in general PvE. For deep enchantment strips, I avoid this by sending in my H/H first but that means I'm losing dps since a warrior can just go in, activate IAS stance and D-slash away. Another option is I go in without casting my enchant, wait till it wastes its enchant strips then cast it on but a warrior can use IAS without all that hassle.

Also, people seems to think warriors can't run Asuran scan. I do use it, and I'm not having trouble with it. Hitting D-slash that does 200+ dmg with buffs and can be started in the beginning of the fight is better than the combo(that needs to be reset on each mob) that assassins are stuck to. Also, thanks to WW having +20 dmg, it can be buffed much more than death blossom's AoE.

I find it hilarious how assassins tries to keep proving themselves on their use, yet they are a crap profession. You might say it's comparing apples to oranges, but I'd say it's comparing apples(warrior) to piece of sh*t(assassin). Go farm with SF as it's the only thing you can do effectively.

Also don't forget party synergy. AP-MoP Necromancer combined with HB-WW warriors > all physical profession.

Tenebrae · Jun 15, 2009, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Sht happens when FGJ goes down. Anyone with anything diff from moebius and dragon slash ? ill have to do it with Locust Fury

faraaz · Jun 15, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Actually...

[build;OwpiMypMtIWDKDq/8WCgxc1cBA] has the highest sustainable DPS in the game, more than Warriors, more than Moebius / Death Blossom...more than anything.

Edit: Forgot to mention, the build is crit scythe...didn't realise Guru build code is still broken.

And for your perusal, the following screen with NO OUTSIDE BUFFS:

To summarise, 173 dps without even trying over a period of 101 seconds (tried to get 100, but typed /bow slow). Crit hits regen'ing energy means you can keep this up for an hour if you had the patience (I do not...anyone willing to prove me wrong can go ahead, but I do not have the tolerance for such boredom).

I would love to see a warrior try and beat those numbers using HIS OWN BUILD ONLY...no outside buffs.

Edit & PS:

Ran another test...this time I got 178 DPS over 157 seconds...it seems the damage just increases with time? =D Regardless, the original statement stands...I'd like to see anything else come close to these numbers.

360° · Jun 15, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Just pointing a few things out: In reality you won't be able to spam MS/DB even half the time you do against MoD in real game environment.

Against MoD you just simply attack once with GPS and then spam away 90~ seconds (or whatever it was) MS/DB. And you think that will give even a slight clue about your real DPS? Think again. Foes should be dying every few seconds, and you won't be spamming MS/DB that much, especially with GPS which has 8 second recharge.

(Also, praise the creator of Adblock+ so I can block that OP's stupid Naruto avatar)

Jaigoda · Jun 15, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

In response to the past posts...

Picuso:
I'd say that the most accurate results would be if you tested for 45 seconds, considering that's the cycle of a single FGJ (180 seconds is about the same). Also, with the buffs I'm pretty sure my heroes were runed badly, though I can't remember specifically. Still, those are showing over 18 and 30 seconds, whereas it should show the downtime as well. Of course, it's pretty simple to assume that it'd drop by about 15 considering that's how much DS without buffs had. Oh, and BH and SY will both drop DPS since you won't be able to DS every hit, and BH drops DPS anyway (.75 seconds for like 50 damage is doing to lower DPS). So all in all and when including utility stuff, it'll probably have around 80 DPS on an unmoving target.

Forgotton200: Stop playing NM and find some real mobs. And if you're barely dealing damage before things die, then why the hell does it matter? Anyway, running regular Sabway I almost never have troubles while using Golden Phoenix>DB>MS before something dies. And again, DS gives you a -33% IMS while using Flail (with a 20s recharge cancel stance), which means since everything's dying so fast you're going to spend most of your time switching targets, not attacking. How's that for efficiency? Why don't you go back to farming Mountain Trolls since that's all you can do effectively?

Tenebrae: I've tested LF before, actually, and use it fairly frequently when I H/H. With regular stuff and using "Dodge This!" instead of SY, I got a bit more than 90 DPS. With the same buffs as shown above on MS>DB, I got exactly 192 DPS or the same exact number as Moebius. However, in order to get the most realistic results I should probably run it with just LF and a smiter with SoH, simply because you're never going to run LF without SoH.

Faraaz: Yeah, someone needs to test Critscythe. in terms of raw DPS, it should take the cake, though it does lose a lot of utility.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 360°

Just pointing a few things out: In reality you won't be able to spam MS/DB even half the time you do against MoD in real game environment.

Against MoD you just simply attack once with GPS and then spam away 90~ seconds (or whatever it was) MS/DB. And you think that will give even a slight clue about your real DPS? Think again. Foes should be dying every few seconds, and you won't be spamming MS/DB that much, especially with GPS which has 8 second recharge.

(Also, praise the creator of Adblock+ so I can block that OP's stupid Naruto avatar)

GPS>DB>MS is easily going to do as much or more DPS as MS>autoattack>DB>MS>autoattack>DB>MS. If you hit all three, maybe with a second MS after everything's been recharged, you have mutliple back-to-back attack skills with no autoattacks in between. I actually did a quick test simply using Golden Fox Strike>Wild Strike>Death Blossom, and with those three only I came up with ~125 DPS over 3 seconds. So yeah, your point is moot.

And yeah, I need to make another avvy. I made it back when the Narutard bug was going around, and was implying that Naruto should be burned on a stake. I've realized now that it comes off as me being a fanboy.

faraaz · Jun 15, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Faraaz: Yeah, someone needs to test Critscythe. in terms of raw DPS, it should take the cake, though it does lose a lot of utility.

I did test it, didnt want to make double post. Check out the screen...178 dps over ~160 seconds. I'd say that pretty much rapes everything else in the game. Enduring Scythe Warriors do not come anywhere near this, even with r12 Kurzick and r10 Asuran titles. They top out at around 130-140 dps.

PS: Lol @ 110 DPS Dragon Slash

Jaigoda · Jun 15, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Didn't see your edit till after I posted. Yeah, I doubt warriors are ever going to compare to that. End of discussion?

faraaz · Jun 15, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I'd say so. Watch them justify with "q.q ur enchants get ripped you get blinded you get empathied and NO THAT DOESNT HAPPEN TO WARRIORS LULZ" =]

Picuso · Jun 15, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

I'd say so. Watch them justify with "q.q ur enchants get ripped you get blinded you get empathied and NO THAT DOESNT HAPPEN TO WARRIORS LULZ" =]

Can we try without PvE Skills nor buffs? XDDDDDDDDD