Curse

AtomicMew · Jun 09, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

In the Assassin Subforum, a discussion on whether or not damage buffs (Orders, GDW/other Weapon Spells, SoH, etc.) should be maintainable or not got sidetracked into a debate over which Profession is able to maintain the highest DPS.

I've copied and/or moved all applicable posts from that discussion here so as not to sidetrack the other OP.

Please note, a few of the posts might seem off because I am trying to make sure that only comments made about the DPS debate get copied/moved here.

Tyrael

Besides that, assassins are not the highest DPS characters in the game, believe it or not.

Jaigoda · Jun 09, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Besides that, assassins are not the highest DPS characters in the game, believe it or not.

Uhh, I would have to beg to differ. If assassins aren't the highest DPS characters in the game, what are? There are several Assassin builds that can singlehandedly kill a 500hp foe in a matter of seconds, without buffs. The only other profs that seem remotely close are dervishes and warriors. And most everything a Derv or War can do an assassin can do better, tbh. I don't see your point here.

Also, just to make sure you understand, I'm talking about sustained DPS. A build dealing 2000 damage over 5 seconds but having a downtime of 60 seconds is not good sustained DPS.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 10, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

If assassins aren't the highest DPS characters in the game, what are?

Warriors.

/12chars

Lux Aeterna · Jun 10, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Warriors.

I just tested and got 85 dps with no damage buffs, sustained for 30 seconds out of 45.

Strength of honor, 12 smiting prayers, on a hero and it's 110.

Does the master of damage properly register vamp? I'm thinking that with 70 or so damage every hit, sundering would be better but sadly I don't own a sundering sword.

Tenebrae · Jun 10, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Warriors.

Comparing spike sins damage with normal warriors or WE PvE warriors is not fair. If a sin makes a build to be ONLY DPS , outdamages the warrior by far. Its just that is better to spike for XXX damage , run and spike again 20 secs later ..... sins dont have enough armor/resistance to stay there hitting all the time.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 11, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

I just tested and got 85 dps with no damage buffs, sustained for 30 seconds out of 45.

Strength of honor, 12 smiting prayers, on a hero and it's 110.

Does the master of damage properly register vamp? I'm thinking that with 70 or so damage every hit, sundering would be better but sadly I don't own a sundering sword.

Vampiric outdamages Sundering on a Sword anyways. Same thing with Daggers for the Assassin. Be glad you don't own a Sundering Sword, they are utter crap, stick with the Vamp, sell any 20/20 Sundering Sword Hilts you get during the course of play.

The only Assassin that has a chance of outdoing the maintained DPS of a Warrior is a Locust's Fury 'Sin that is stacked with damage buffs. Otherwise, there are too many factors involved for the Assassin's damage to be consistant.

Also, Assassins don't have the staying power that a Warrior does on the front line (without Shadow Form - but if SF is up, the Sin does reduced damage). Not even with Critical Agility (broken PvE skill, just like all of them) are they going to be able to take as much punishment and maintain a strong presence on the frontline, which is going to force them to back off, and that kills the DPS right there.

When it comes to spike damage... that's a different story. The Assassin has their skill chain up and at the ready, no need to build Adrenaline for the spike, just hit 12345 and watch the numbers fly. With bonus damage as high as some Sin skills get (Unsuspecting Strike vs. a target with >90% max hp, for example), Warriors will have a hard time competing. I know that I have a hard time keeping up with allied Sins in areas like AB because their chains trigger quickly with massive bonus damage, then they bounce away all happy with 1 kill to their credit while I'm still building Adrenaline on my first target.

Jaigoda · Jun 11, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Tyrael, I think you don't quite understand assassins. If survivability is a problem, you bring Critical Defenses and wtfpwn anyway. Still, for the most part you can use Critical Agility (bringing your AL up to around 95, close to warrior AL), maybe with Prot Spirit thrown on if it's really bad, and survivability isn't a problem. I'm usually the last person to be dying in my H/H. Also, MS>DB easily pumps out like 110 DPS before including AoE, and you also get more of a benefit from buffs because of the 33% IAS and double strikes. I don't know of any warrior builds that do that, besides maybe WE scythe, and that's quite likely to be outstripped by Critscythe anyway (considering you do have a perma-IAS and high crits). Again, I don't see any evidence that warriors can do more damage than assassins.

AtomicMew · Jun 11, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Uhh, I would have to beg to differ. If assassins aren't the highest DPS characters in the game, what are? There are several Assassin builds that can singlehandedly kill a 500hp foe in a matter of seconds, without buffs. The only other profs that seem remotely close are dervishes and warriors. And most everything a Derv or War can do an assassin can do better, tbh. I don't see your point here.

Also, just to make sure you understand, I'm talking about sustained DPS. A build dealing 2000 damage over 5 seconds but having a downtime of 60 seconds is not good sustained DPS.

Necros. AP caller, MoP nuker, or even just crap like echo SS.

Secondly, sure, "you" can do 200 DPS on master of damage, but it's hardly fair to say that the damage is due to the sin, since most of the damage is coming from the buffer. The buffer has higher DPS than the sin.

Lastly, 200 DPS on MoD is not realistically 200 DPS in game. The fact that you are melee s a huge factor when you have to run from foe to foe on the order of ~1 sec (things should be dying on the order of ~2 sec). The fact that you are a sin means you have to restart your chain every time something dies. And also the fact that you are far more easier to shutdown being melee AND squishy. In realistic play, easily drop your DPS ~30-40%... realistically, vs. a ranged caster.

Jaigoda · Jun 11, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Uhh, I would have to beg to differ. If assassins aren't the highest DPS characters in the game, what are? There are several Assassin builds that can singlehandedly kill a 500hp foe in a matter of seconds, without buffs.

See Assassin's Promise spikers. And as I said in the last post, MS>DB can easily do about 110 sustained DPS, with no outside buffs (and gaining more from buffs than a warrior, due to dual attacks).

Also, last time I checked warriors and dervishes were melees as well. And snares are gud too. And AP necros rely on physicals to deal damage, so it's difficult to use them as an example for DPS. Honestly, there are very few caster builds that can compete with melee in terms of DPS. Even echo SS is going to have a hard time camparing to a high-DPS melee.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 11, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I understand Assassins very well, Jaigoda, thank you.

There's a reason that my Assassin sits on my Character Selection Screen while my Warrior continues to be my main.

I know how powerful Assassins can be, I know how much fun it can be to insta-gib things, and I know how vulnerable they are to enchantment removal, the limitations of their combo chains, and the fact that they are squishy frontliners who are meant to get in, deal with a problem target, and get out.

At the moment, I have been without an internet connection that can handle GW, or else I'd be more than happy to find a way to work this out in-game with you so that the honest answer is known.

If an Assassin can output a higher maintainable DPS than a Warrior, then something is wrong with how ANet has balanced this game (what a shock), but if that is indeed the case, I shall happily eat my words with a nice pint of Guiness to wash them down!

The main problems that I see with Assassins and maintainable DPS:

1) They don't have the armor to maintain a presence on the frontline. ANet has "fixed" this in PvE with Critical Agility, but the whole point of having 8 skills is to utilize the best possible combinations of 8 skills, not the best possible combination of 7 skills and Critical Agility.

2) When using Daggers, the Assassin has low base damage and is locked into using chain combos. With the numerous skills to be used, the argument usually boils down to Golden Phoenix Strike (lead-skipping offhand) vs. Golden Fox Strike > Wild Strike. Why? Because players don't want to play the Assassin as a wait, get in, kill a priority target, get out role. They want to insta-gib everything. Daggers don't have a high enough base damage to facilitate this. Chain Combos (especially the longer recharging ones) don't facilitate this.

3) The most commonly brought up argument for Assassins on maintainable DPS is the use of Moebius Strike + Death Blossom. It doesn't always work. MS/DB depends on A) landing your lead and offhand (or your leadskip offhand, as the case may be) B) having additional enemies in range and C) Moebius landing when the target is below 50% max hp. Even then, 2 seconds to recharge both skills is ridiculously fast. But then, you are only discussing one combination of skills, and not all Assassins are going to carry MS/DB.

4) The same things that shut down Warriors, as melee, will shut down Assassins as melee - and there is more than enough melee-hate to shut down multiple melee in many of the Zones in the game - add in the fact that Assassins are dependent upon Enchantments to a much further extent than Warriors (you are less a good chunk of AL and all of your IAS if you lose Critical Agility, which is stapled to almost every single PvE Assassin bar), and you have even more ways that a 'Sin's DPS can be whittled away (or outright robbed).

This argument/discussion/comparison is going to take far more than a simple test at the Master of Damage (let's face it - he doesn't run, he doesn't anti-melee, he doesn't enchant-strip, etc.), it's going to take a massive amount of testing in-game all over Proph, Factions, NF, and EotN.

Tenebrae · Jun 11, 2009, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

I understand Assassins very well, Jaigoda, thank you.

This argument/discussion/comparison is going to take far more than a simple test at the Master of Damage (let's face it - he doesn't run, he doesn't anti-melee, he doesn't enchant-strip, etc.), it's going to take a massive amount of testing in-game all over Proph, Factions, NF, and EotN.

We ( or at least so much of us ) understand PvE game mechanics very well , Tyrael , thank you.

Sorry to tell you something that you didnt consider but , DPS are 3 words that have a specific meaning. DPS is a TEST that can be done in any game and its the same :
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to a SINGLE target in an specific amount of time.
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to MULTIPLE targets in an specific amount of time.

AoE Damage Dealers cant be compared to Single target damage dealers ofc , that wont be fair but DPS is not :
- DPS you can make with an attacking foe
- DPS you can make when theres heavy ench removal
- DPS you can make when theres heavy anti-melee
- DPS you can make when a N with 15-16 curses casted Barbs on target
- ........ see my point ?

So when it comes to a character with buffs to increase damage , sorry to tell you but yes , it comes to the Simple test at Master of Damage because experiments and tests are done WITHOUT matters that can DIRECTLY affect the test. At the Master of Damage you have the SAME test conditions that anyone else unlike X area , X mode of the game or X place ( proph , fact , ect ).

So if you are going into FULL INGAME test then Necros and AoE Nukers can be as high as sins , warriors and hell , even win ( most of the times ). Concluding : DPS is just an acronym and doesnt imply all IG conditions. There are many profs that can deal bloody lots of damage per sec ( hey ! DPS ! ) when certain conditions are met ( even HB warriors ! ) but we need something that has the same conditions to EVERYONE to make a test , if not , comparisons are not fair .

PD: The fact that X prof dont do something so often doesnt mean it CANT .

Paul Dawg · Jun 11, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Tyrael said maintainable DPS, not DPS.

We are know what DPS is mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Sorry to tell you something that you didnt consider but , DPS are 3 words that have an specific mean. DPS is a TEST that can be done in any game and its the same :
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to a SINGLE target in an specific amount of time.
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to MULTIPLE targets in an specific amount of time.

Jaigoda · Jun 11, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

I know how powerful Assassins can be, I know how much fun it can be to insta-gib things, and I know how vulnerable they are to enchantment removal, the limitations of their combo chains, and the fact that they are squishy frontliners who are meant to get in, deal with a problem target, and get out.

Combo chains are only vulnerable if there are interupts or Diversion, which is pretty rare in PvE, tbh. Also, what a character is 'meant' to do has no value in PvE. Just look at ER infuse ele's. Assassins do best as a permanent frontliner that rapes everything in front of them before they can kill them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

If an Assassin can output a higher maintainable DPS than a Warrior, then something is wrong with how ANet has balanced this game (what a shock), but if that is indeed the case, I shall happily eat my words with a nice pint of Guiness to wash them down!

IMO, Assassin's should be able to do more damage than warriors in PvE. They are admittedly more vulnerable to interupts and enchantment removal, and they do have lower armor. If they don't have more damage, then warriors would completely eclipse Assassins as a profession, as they were until Nightfall came out and they could rely on PvE skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

1) They don't have the armor to maintain a presence on the frontline. ANet has "fixed" this in PvE with Critical Agility, but the whole point of having 8 skills is to utilize the best possible combinations of 8 skills, not the best possible combination of 7 skills and Critical Agility.

Warriors bring an IAS pretty religiously as well, and they also have several skills that see use on most every bar. It's just that CA is so damn good for 'Sins that there's no point arguing about assassins without including it. It would be like saying warriors are a combination of 7 skills and Flail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

2) When using Daggers, the Assassin has low base damage and is locked into using chain combos. With the numerous skills to be used, the argument usually boils down to Golden Phoenix Strike (lead-skipping offhand) vs. Golden Fox Strike > Wild Strike. Why? Because players don't want to play the Assassin as a wait, get in, kill a priority target, get out role. They want to insta-gib everything. Daggers don't have a high enough base damage to facilitate this. Chain Combos (especially the longer recharging ones) don't facilitate this.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Longer recharging skills are rarely used by 'Sins, and the two most popular builds (critscythe and MS>DB) focus on spamming high-damage, short-recharging attack skills. This means they can do crazy hella damage (imagine an AoE Dragon Slash to get the idea) without relying as much on spike-type chains. Also, GFS+WS recharges in 4 seconds, meaning it's easy to switch targets even if MS's recharge doesn't trigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

3) The most commonly brought up argument for Assassins on maintainable DPS is the use of Moebius Strike + Death Blossom. It doesn't always work. MS/DB depends on A) landing your lead and offhand (or your leadskip offhand, as the case may be) B) having additional enemies in range and C) Moebius landing when the target is below 50% max hp. Even then, 2 seconds to recharge both skills is ridiculously fast. But then, you are only discussing one combination of skills, and not all Assassins are going to carry MS/DB.

Landing a lead and offhand that are unblockable, with the option of bringing an enchant that removes blind before hitting with an attack skill, means it's pretty easy to land it. If that's not a problem, GPS works great for bar compression. And all melee builds need 'additional enemies in range.' And again, if you already have short-recharge skills, you don't need to worry about triggering MS's recharge. Also, if you're comparing two professions on which does more damage, you generally use the most powerful build as an example. Most other builds don't matter at that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

4) The same things that shut down Warriors, as melee, will shut down Assassins as melee - and there is more than enough melee-hate to shut down multiple melee in many of the Zones in the game - add in the fact that Assassins are dependent upon Enchantments to a much further extent than Warriors (you are less a good chunk of AL and all of your IAS if you lose Critical Agility, which is stapled to almost every single PvE Assassin bar), and you have even more ways that a 'Sin's DPS can be whittled away (or outright robbed).

Yes, we're more vulnerable than warriors. Enchantment removal is sometimes a problem. Still, pre-enchanting to cover CA usually works fine to stop stripping. And if worse comes to worst, you can always hang back a moment, and then apply enchantments so they aren't stripped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

This argument/discussion/comparison is going to take far more than a simple test at the Master of Damage (let's face it - he doesn't run, he doesn't anti-melee, he doesn't enchant-strip, etc.), it's going to take a massive amount of testing in-game all over Proph, Factions, NF, and EotN.

MoD is the best way of comparing damage. In two similar builds, the damage will at least mostly translate to general PvE. Melee builds are especially easy to compare, because the vast majority focus simply on shitting out damage.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 12, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I'll post up MoD tests for some of the general-use Builds and variants as soon as I can get a reliable, GW-worthy Net connection.

Unless someone else wants to do so before I get the chance.

GourangaPizza · Jun 12, 2009, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I am pretty sure that an assassin can spike down a target quickly with Asuran Scan + all other ridiculous enchantments but there is a high possibility that they are outmatched by warriors when it comes to clearing mobs.

Most of the skills used by warriors bring in some sort of utility to neuter the target instantaneously; knockdown, deep wound without it being a stutter to their ability to kill. Whilst for the assassins, it always requires some sort of pre-requisites; hexed and under conditions, or that particular skill being a dual attack. Of course if the party is able to provide the utilitarian offense, then all the assassin has to focus on is the damage.

AtomicMew · Jun 12, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Sorry to tell you something that you didnt consider but , DPS are 3 words that have a specific meaning. DPS is a TEST that can be done in any game and its the same :
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to a SINGLE target in an specific amount of time.
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to MULTIPLE targets in an specific amount of time.

Sorry, but that is 100% BS. With 3 skills on my necro bar, I can get MoD to tell me 306 DPS, forever, indefinitely. With another player, I can pump that number up to 714 DPS.

If you define DPS to just whatever you can get against MoD, it is a completely, an utterly useless measure.

DPS is NOT a specific test. It is just an acronym, which means Damage per Second. The only useful measure is realistic DPS that you can actually get in game. MoD is only just a tool which is useful for comparing similar builds. For example, between a cleave warrior and a WE warrior. It is NOT useful for comparing DPS between a necro and an assassin, or even a warrior and assassin.

Tenebrae · Jun 12, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Sorry, but that is 100% BS. With 3 skills on my necro bar, I can get MoD to tell me 306 DPS, forever, indefinitely. With another player, I can pump that number up to 714 DPS.

If you define DPS to just whatever you can get against MoD, it is a completely, an utterly useless measure.

DPS is NOT a specific test. It is just an acronym, which means Damage per Second. The only useful measure is realistic DPS that you can actually get in game. MoD is only just a tool which is useful for comparing similar builds. For example, between a cleave warrior and a WE warrior. It is NOT useful for comparing DPS between a necro and an assassin, or even a warrior and assassin.

Yeah because DPS on MoD is made at work , on the office. Dude , it is an specific test , i didnt say it was PERFECT but for god sake it counts no matter what you say. Comparisons between builds on same chars and similar profs ( melee for example ) are pretty fair but not an ABSOLUTE TRUTH , no one is claiming that . If you can do 180 dps on MoD you can do it INGAME , the fact that certain zones , situations , party members , skills used , foes level and so on prevent you from doing that or even BOOST your damage are VARIABLES. Tests and experiments must be done with less variable factors possible and THEN , when you got the results , introduce variables and see how does work "in practice" .

Its same shit with boosting heals and max HP with Symbiosis .... is it POSSIBLE ? yes absolutely. Is it practical or do the players use it often ? no ofc but it doesnt mean you CANT go with 3k+ HP INGAME. Im not discussing if a build made only for getting "big numbers" on MoD is useful or not , but the thing is that melee DPS is not always useful either and so on .... just saying what IS possible.

PD: Thanks for the correction Paul "neverdomistakes" Daug

AtomicMew · Jun 13, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah because DPS on MoD is made at work , on the office. Dude , it is an specific test , i didnt say it was PERFECT

DPS is not... a test. It is an acronym that stands for "damage per second." Period. You can say something like "Warriors do more DPS in a realistic game setting." That sentence makes complete sense. Not only that, fyi, but DPS isn't only used in GW. It's used in other games that DON'T have MoD or something similar to "test" with.

Also, none of what you said discredited what I said... a lot actually even contradicted what you stated earlier.

For example:
"it is an specific test ...but for god sake it counts no matter what you say"
Whether or not the "test" "counts" was never in dispute. I already outlined how and when it is useful, and you pretty much said the exact same I already did (that it's useful in comparing similar builds.

So you agree with me... except you stated earlier in direct contradiction...:

Quote:

So when it comes to a character with buffs to increase damage , sorry to tell you but yes , it comes to the Simple test at Master of Damage because experiments and tests are done WITHOUT matters that can DIRECTLY affect the test. At the Master of Damage you have the SAME test conditions that anyone else unlike X area , X mode of the game or X place ( proph , fact , ect ).

Again, that's 100% bull. Realistic DPS is NOT a simple MoD test or else 1) necromancer wins and 2) has no relevance.

PS: nice 1 day later ninja edit. Not that it changes the fact that you are wrong.

Tenebrae · Jun 13, 2009, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

DPS is not... a test. It is an acronym that stands for "damage per second." Period.

On previous post i CLEARLY said "DPS on MoD" and at the other one i said that DPS is an acronym. Congratulations you agree with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You can say something like "Warriors do more DPS in a realistic game setting." That sentence makes complete sense. Not only that, fyi, but DPS isn't only used in GW. It's used in other games that DON'T have MoD or something similar to "test" with.

I didnt say the opposite but there are other games with MoD and no one complains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Also, none of what you said discredited what I said... a lot actually even contradicted what you stated earlier.

This shows that you didnt understand a word i said because i am NOT claiming NOTHING to be an ABSOLUTE TRUTH . Unlike others that drops sentences like "X is not that" or "X have higher DPS than Y (always)"

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Whether or not the "test" "counts" was never in dispute. I already outlined how and when it is useful, and you pretty much said the exact same I already did (that it's useful in comparing similar builds.

Well it was, you said "that is 100% BS" like nothing that i said was true , those were your words , not mine

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

So you agree with me... except you stated earlier in direct contradiction...:

... or you agree with me except you are trying to state facts on a direct contradiction like "thats 100% BS" and "whether or not the test ( you are calling DPS on MoD a TEST no acronym like i said ) counts was never in dispute. Tyrael had a doubt and now is gonna TEST some general builds on MoD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Again, that's 100% bull. Realistic DPS is NOT a simple MoD test or else 1) necromancer wins and 2) has no relevance.

You should stop droping SHT on posts dude because like i stated before ( for heaven sake READ ) i NEVER SAID IT WAS REALISTIC neither claimed MoD to be an ABSOLUTE TRUTH. We all know it COUNTS on DPS but not on 100% REALISTIC INGAME DPS , stop writing that to me like i said the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

PS: nice 1 day later ninja edit. Not that it changes the fact that you are wrong.

PS: nice edit but mine was to correct some grammar and your PS is just like a scream "haha , still im superior" wich is pretty useless .... oh like mine ! /joke .

AtomicMew · Jun 13, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

DPS is a TEST that can be done in any game and its the same

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

DPS is just an acronym

Yeah, those statements are compatible, right? If DPS is a TEST, then it's obviously not "just an acronym."

Look, this is going nowhere and doesn't really matter. Just be aware of these things:

1) that you contradicted yourself in the same post, as above

2) Your disagreement with Tyrael ("This argument/discussion/comparison is going to take far more than a simple test at the Master of Damage") is pretty much idiotic, since you later basically screamed your agreement with him ("i NEVER SAID IT WAS REALISTIC DPS")

3)

Quote:

Well it was, you said "that is 100% BS" like nothing that i said was true

What I said was 100% BS was the fact that you called DPS "a test." Notice that is not equivalent to saying the MoD test has no merit, like you think I am incorrectly implying. Also notice that what I wrote is not equivalent to saying "you cannot test DPS on MoD."