Curse

Reverend Dr · Feb 21, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

In a PuG there is one guy, that refuses to listen to the rest of the group and insists that he is right.

This guy ruins the PuG.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 21, 2010, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

If you take a step back, you'll realize that you never have access to who is a "good" player or who is "right."

No. You can more or less prove which build is better for a given task, if shown two of them. Since two people disagreeing on build usually have one smart person and one idiot, it's easy for an onlooker to see who's right.

And beyond that, you can calculate shit and get it done that way.

Daesu · Feb 22, 2010, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Since two people disagreeing on build usually have one smart person and one idiot, it's easy for an onlooker to see who's right.

And beyond that, you can calculate shit and get it done that way.

Except that in a PUG situation, it is more likely that the onlooker is also an idiot and would side his own kind.

It is sad that in a ZM like today's Aurora Glade, most puggers actually have no clue at all how to run crystals. Seriously, this simple task is more complex than what most of them can handle.

Improvavel · Feb 22, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm right, this is bullshit.

GW is a game of mathematics. That X is superior to Y is a transcendental, mathematical truth. It is true whether or not the community consensus takes note of it. It is true whether or not any member of the community is even aware of it. Moreover, one does not need the community to mediate this truth -- only mathematics and knowledge of the game's underlying equations.

To illustrate my point: You and I agree that ER is the strongest backline build for general-purpose PvE, correct? I posit that it has been the strongest backline build since the minute ER was buffed. It was the strongest backline build for the couple weeks between the buff and when the first people started figuring out the build. It was the strongest backline build when it was only championed by a few people like Jeydra, while Guru's community consensus was "WoH." It is now the strongest backline build even though the broader community beyond Guru is barely aware of it. Transcendental, mathematical truth. Or are you telling me that whether or not ER was "good" and whether someone arguing that ER was better than WoH was right varied over time as the community consensus changed?

Yes - ER is stronger and even easier to run than a WoH build, as energy isn't a concern and you can maintain absurd number of bonds, heal for 400+ continuously, etc.

But it is all moot.

At this point (and maybe only until next update) that is all moot because the best team builds out there for PUG PvE are Shadow Form based teams.

It is a mathematical truth.

Maybe after the Shadow Form is nerf, physical teams formed around ER E/Mo are better, but now they aren't.

You can see the results for yourself - Shadow Form teams are simply faster and simpler to use.

So, Chthon, when you play with PuGs do you run Shadow Form teams?

Cause if you aren't you are the idiot by suggesting ER builds over Shadow Form team builds for PuGs.

(Disclaimer: the two paragraphs above are simply argumentative and in no way I'm trying to aggro you or call you stupid or whatnot).

So, if Shadow Form builds are the mathematical best (and when they are not stuff like 600/smite most often are) and if you aren't running them, other values above mathematical power are present - values like fun, challenge, pride, etc.

Maybe next month all PuGs are running ER backlines.

I bet by then we will have threads demanding ER to be nerfed as it is no skill and every noob on earth can finish elite areas with it, while builds that require skill like the now scoffed WoH hybrid build take much longer to complete it.

HigherMinion · Feb 22, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yes - ER is stronger and even easier to run than a WoH build, as energy isn't a concern and you can maintain absurd number of bonds, heal for 400+ continuously, etc.

But it is all moot.

At this point (and maybe only until next update) that is all moot because the best team builds out there for PUG PvE are Shadow Form based teams.

It is a mathematical truth.

Maybe after the Shadow Form is nerf, physical teams formed around ER E/Mo are better, but now they aren't.

You can see the results for yourself - Shadow Form teams are simply faster and simpler to use.

So, Chthon, when you play with PuGs do you run Shadow Form teams?

Cause if you aren't you are the idiot by suggesting ER builds over Shadow Form team builds for PuGs.

(Disclaimer: the two paragraphs above are simply argumentative and in no way I'm trying to aggro you or call you stupid or whatnot).

So, if Shadow Form builds are the mathematical best (and when they are not stuff like 600/smite most often are) and if you aren't running them, other values above mathematical power are present - values like fun, challenge, pride, etc.

Maybe next month all PuGs are running ER backlines.

I bet by then we will have threads demanding ER to be nerfed as it is no skill and every noob on earth can finish elite areas with it, while builds that require skill like the now scoffed WoH hybrid build take much longer to complete it.

But you're comparing speedclear teams to Balanced teams.

You should be comparing ER infuse/bonders to WoH hybrid monks, not Shadowform.

ER is used in Balanced teams, instead of monks or one monk. Just like monks in DoA that used to bond.

I know you're saying that if we want optimal speed we should Speed Clear; but it has alot more risk, and you must understand exactly where to stand and if you mess up, or anyone in the party; well QQ.

And with balanced teams, almost anyone can join the party. If you demand shadowform, that limits you to assassins.

Improvavel · Feb 22, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

But you're comparing speedclear teams to Balanced teams.

You should be comparing ER infuse/bonders to WoH hybrid monks, not Shadowform.

ER is used in Balanced teams, instead of monks or one monk. Just like monks in DoA that used to bond.

I know you're saying that if we want optimal speed we should Speed Clear; but it has alot more risk, and you must understand exactly where to stand and if you mess up, or anyone in the party; well QQ.

And with balanced teams, almost anyone can join the party. If you demand shadowform, that limits you to assassins.

If infinite energy is balanced...

And not all Speed clears are based on mass assassins - for example DoA is some assassins and other professions, the same as FoW.

The arguments you use can just be reversed - so no space for healing monks and elemental based damage caster too since they are inferior to buffed physicals.

And if time isn't important, exactly how many places require ER E/Mo over WoH monks to be completed?

It will require more skill from the team to complete something with a WoH backline compared to a ER backline?

Yes , it will.

Its funny how for years (some) people have been advocating playing the more skillful builds instead of the overpowered, but as long as the overpowered build in question isn't the mainstream PUG build it is alright and anyone that doesn't use that build doesn't understand the game maths.

But don't worry - physical+ER backline is a good candidate to take the SF role soon - its easy, its quite hard to get killed with SY! and infinite energy on the backline, and buffed physicals running rampant knocking everything in sight is quite powerful.

Anyway my point is:

PUG meta will be dominated by the fastest, easiest, most powerful build available.

At the moment its SF and 600/smites.

Before was SF and CoP.

Before ursan.

Before Obby+Searing Flames.

Before were 5 man teams with SS.

Etc.

ER EMo isn't the most powerful build atm, so it isn't a PuG meta.

Monks, that use protection always had a special place in GW, since monking is one of the most important/skillful/crucial roles in GvG (PvP) and that is why (some) people don't take lightly when a profession that requires skill is suddenly so outclassed by a spamming class, spamming always being disdained by the community.

Chthon · Feb 23, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So, Chthon, when you play with PuGs do you run Shadow Form teams?

1. Higher Minion's point that you are comparing apples to oranges is correct. If you want to run a "balanced" team (meaning "a team composition that is somewhat balanced across the classes"), then SF is usually a non-starter. It's only optimal in speed clear settings where everyone skips most of the content and maaaybe in huge aggro zones like DoA where tank-n-spank saves enough time through AoEing everything to maybe make up for the time spent pulling and balling.

2. I generally avoid SF teams. I don't enjoy playing the game in utterly-invincible-but-low-offense-and-must-skip-content mode. Sometimes I'll farm with it. One in a blue moon I'll join a PUG team that relies on SF. Even for the areas where SF really makes sense, at this point it's not illogical to start looking for things that will work post-nerf and practicing them.

Now, if someone said "you know, running a team full of SF sins would be better than the current team build," my response would NOT be "you're wrong; this is better." My response would either be, "yes, but I'm not interested in doing that because I don't find it fun," or "yes, but we don't have enough sins to do that."

Notice how that coincides with what I said earlier. The difference between the good player and the bad player each saying "I'm right, you're wrong" is the good player's ability and willingness to distinguish when the other person's position is right, wrong, or not immediately determinable, and respond accordingly. In the case of SF, someone suggesting it would be right, and I would concede they were right, though I probably wouldn't join them for other reasons.

Improvavel · Feb 23, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Higher Minion's point that you are comparing apples to oranges is correct. If you want to run a "balanced" team (meaning "a team composition that is somewhat balanced across the classes"), then SF is usually a non-starter. It's only optimal in speed clear settings where everyone skips most of the content and maaaybe in huge aggro zones like DoA where tank-n-spank saves enough time through AoEing everything to maybe make up for the time spent pulling and balling.

2. I generally avoid SF teams. I don't enjoy playing the game in utterly-invincible-but-low-offense-and-must-skip-content mode. Sometimes I'll farm with it. One in a blue moon I'll join a PUG team that relies on SF. Even for the areas where SF really makes sense, at this point it's not illogical to start looking for things that will work post-nerf and practicing them.

Now, if someone said "you know, running a team full of SF sins would be better than the current team build," my response would NOT be "you're wrong; this is better." My response would either be, "yes, but I'm not interested in doing that because I don't find it fun," or "yes, but we don't have enough sins to do that."

Notice how that coincides with what I said earlier. The difference between the good player and the bad player each saying "I'm right, you're wrong" is the good player's ability and willingness to distinguish when the other person's position is right, wrong, or not immediately determinable, and respond accordingly. In the case of SF, someone suggesting it would be right, and I would concede they were right, though I probably wouldn't join them for other reasons.

And someone playing a word of healing hybrid might argue that infinite energy doesn't go in the same sentence as "balanced team".

So the woh player will tell you "while ER is more powerful I don't find it fun" or "ER is dull cause it's spamming" or even an ele player will tell you the same.

Sometimes the game isn't just about power levels - PvP is about playing the absolute best because the enemy can actually fight back; in PvE fun is also a fundamental part of the game.

ElnoreVarda · Feb 24, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Why do you keep pushing it? Are you that bitter? You avoid the actual topic so you can whine about crap you dont like. This is about pugging, not about that you think PvE balance is facking shit right now.

Balanced team build has nothing to do with skill or game balance!!!

ER ruins prot/spike heal monking, SF ruins balanced and other tanks and cons ruins alot. Argue for that instead. Arguing for that "ER is lame because its powerful and lame" or "SF is nooby because spells and attacks cant hit you" is ... disgusting.

Improvavel · Feb 24, 2010, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

Why do you keep pushing it? Are you that bitter? You avoid the actual topic so you can whine about crap you dont like. This is about pugging, not about that you think PvE balance is facking shit right now.

Balanced team build has nothing to do with skill or game balance!!!

ER ruins prot/spike heal monking, SF ruins balanced and other tanks and cons ruins alot. Argue for that instead. Arguing for that "ER is lame because its powerful and lame" or "SF is nooby because spells and attacks cant hit you" is ... disgusting.

You miss the point.

The point is calling a good build like WoH hybrid noob or bad because there is a more powerful build available.

If there was a nerf tomorrow on ER the ER E/Mo build would crumble and the WoH hybrid would be one of the best options.

So how can a build that would be the top choice in that case be a bad build?

I use ER E/Mo and have no problem with them but I wouldn't call a monk running a WoH hybrid a noob and tell him to go play E/Mo instead cause his build sucks.

If you have a skill that deals 500 damage and one that deals 200 damage and you have to go kill a 100 health monster while the 500 damage skill is best it is also over kill and the 200 damage skill will accomplish the same.

And for PvE the best builds are often overkill so advocating only the best builds to do every frigging crap, ignoring other things like personal profession preferences or build preferences as long as the build makes sense, is insane.

There is a difference between not being the optimal best and be a bad build in PvE.

ElnoreVarda · Feb 24, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

No one said it was bad? Someone said ER is more powerful than WoH + prots, which is true.

Already said it, but will say it again: People play the game in different ways; some want loot, some want to make builds, some want to relax, some want to grief and the list goes on forever.

Chthon · Feb 24, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And someone playing a word of healing hybrid might argue that infinite energy doesn't go in the same sentence as "balanced team".

You seem to have trouble with the definition of "balanced team." It has nothing to do with skill balance. A "balanced team" is simply one with a diverse -- or "balanced" -- class makeup. In direct contrast to a "speedclear team" that is either all assassins or mostly assassins plus a specific, fixed support build or two from another class.

Minion's point was that your premise, "SF is the best at everything," is wrong some of the time. In a balanced team situation, SF sucks pretty badly.

As a result, your rhetorical question only makes the point you want it to make some of the time. If I went into speed clear groups and insisted that something else was a better idea than SF, I'd be a moron. However, in a balanced group, someone insisting on running SF would be the moron.

I suppose one could always go into a balanced group and insist that a speed clear group would be better, so the entire party should be changed. That would be correct. But you can't convert a balanced group into a SF group unless everyone is willing to leave and come back with an assassin character -- which many won't want to do because they (a) want to use the character that they're on right now, (b) don't have a sin, or (c) don't find SF very enjoyable.

Improvavel · Feb 24, 2010, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You seem to have trouble with the definition of "balanced team." It has nothing to do with skill balance. A "balanced team" is simply one with a diverse -- or "balanced" -- class makeup. In direct contrast to a "speedclear team" that is either all assassins or mostly assassins plus a specific, fixed support build or two from another class.

Minion's point was that your premise, "SF is the best at everything," is wrong some of the time. In a balanced team situation, SF sucks pretty badly.

As a result, your rhetorical question only makes the point you want it to make some of the time. If I went into speed clear groups and insisted that something else was a better idea than SF, I'd be a moron. However, in a balanced group, someone insisting on running SF would be the moron.

I suppose one could always go into a balanced group and insist that a speed clear group would be better, so the entire party should be changed. That would be correct. But you can't convert a balanced group into a SF group unless everyone is willing to leave and come back with an assassin character -- which many won't want to do because they (a) want to use the character that they're on right now, (b) don't have a sin, or (c) don't find SF very enjoyable.

We don't need to take in account speed clears - SC only happen in FoW/UW due to their quest nature and Shadow Form is the top skill for most elite, if not all elite areas. And we talking about 1-2 SF not 5 or 6.

As long as Shadow Form isn't countered and/or mobs aren't very small/too spread, having a single Shadow Form grabbing aggro and then use AoE skills, like Mark of Pain, 100blades, splinter, foc, RoJ, etc, will always be faster, the few seconds spent to aggro are more than compensated by the speeding kill, especially if aggroing huge mobs.

We aren't talking about slow obby tanks throwing armor sensible damage - manly spikes, for example, require various professions and are fast.

Its fun - balanced teams use physicals to abuse mop, but the best mop setups are done by a Shadow Form while the physicals of a balanced team are probably better killing different targets instead of focusing.

Also, curiously, the other areas where this doesn't apply are also generally lower threat area and a comparison between the best builds like ER E/Mo and WoH hybrid monk makes less sense, as the end results are similar.

My point is - where can you see the difference between the best builds and the less optimal, like in the ER E/Mo vs WoH example? In the areas with huge amount of hard hitting mobs.

What works best in those areas? Shadow Form setting up a ball of enemies to be wiped by AoE.

Or do you guys need a ER setting up 8 PB to finish a HM mission? Or an Imbagon?

PuGs fail because of the following

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

Already said it, but will say it again: People play the game in different ways; some want loot, some want to make builds, some want to relax, some want to grief and the list goes on forever.

and because most people don't understand the game mechanics.

But good builds have the same mechanics regardless of the relative power of skills used.

A warrior with gladiator defense, mending and 6 attack skills is a warrior using a bad build. But a warrior with a IAS, 3-4 attack skills and some utility is probably a good warrior, regardless if his elite is the most powerful attack available or the second most.

The same a monk using healer's boon and 6 heals and rebirth is using a bad build, but a monk using a couple of heals, a few prots and some energy management is using a good build.

And the balanced team you talk about is 3-4 frontliners, 2 backliners and 2-3 frontline support and/or 0-1 ranged physical.

All the damage comes from the physicals and their buffs. All the rest revolves around keeping the physicals doing their damage/buffing them.

Builds that don't conform with the role of doing physical damage, buffing/and or support that physical damage has no place.

That is why physicalway isn't a pug meta - it isn't as powerful in the places that matter as tank based builds and in the other areas you are restricted to find people that want to fit that playstyle.

There are reasonable caster builds that can deal some damage - not on par with buffed physicals but enough to clear most other PvE in HM.

Heck, discordway, sabway and spiritway can do it with 4 crappy henchmen.

And I'm saying all this but I do play physicalway most of the time when playing with enough people.

I'm just saying to not expect all people in the world with casters to want to play "bitch" role.

Running builds like Imbagon and ER E/Mo have a big advantage though - you can make a bad team win. A warrior with +100 armor/PB hitting with GDW cast by an Imbagon or E/Mo will eventually kill.

That is why I made my Imbagon and that is why other people run E/Mo.

ElnoreVarda · Feb 24, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

What is it you are trying to prove? To me it seems like you are ignoring the content of this thread and argue about stuff that has happened in game, ie me telling people what skills to bring and not bring, and you are pissed because you dont think its okay.

And why do you say that I am speaking about physway when I talk about balanced in general? And then you go on about whether its the meta or not. Before that you even describe - very simplified - the difference between a good and a bad build....

You are still whining about how other people play the game and that balance isnt that good in pve. Cant you just say that, instead of semi-raging all over the place? Presenting arguments that dont really contribute to what is being discussed.

Balance in PvE is bad? Yes
SF is great for tanking? Yes
ER is great for keeping stuff alive? Yes
You can run alot of different builds in pve? Yes
You are free to choose who you want to play with and what builds to run? Yes

Are we done now?

Improvavel · Feb 25, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

What is it you are trying to prove? To me it seems like you are ignoring the content of this thread and argue about stuff that has happened in game, ie me telling people what skills to bring and not bring, and you are pissed because you dont think its okay.

Didn't you just do a dungeon with me the other day? Did it sound I was pissed with you?

In that certain situation you mention I got a bit annoyed cause that was going to be a casual dungeon and then it was all serious business with consumables and lets make sure we are running the best builds - and the party starters weren't interested on that.

Quote:

And why do you say that I am speaking about physway when I talk about balanced in general? And then you go on about whether its the meta or not. Before that you even describe - very simplified - the difference between a good and a bad build....

That was a reply to Chthon, not to you. I was just using your remark to respond to Chton - sorry for the misunderstanding

Quote:

You are still whining about how other people play the game and that balance isnt that good in pve. Cant you just say that, instead of semi-raging all over the place? Presenting arguments that dont really contribute to what is being discussed.

First I could care less about the game balance - it would actually be nice if Anet stop trying retarded solutions like adding dhuum skeletons to solve perceived problems and creating even more problems in its place.

Second, telling me I'm whining about how other people play the game when yourself admit you keep telling people to change skills is somewhat ironic, although I don't care, unless I'm starting a byob party and then people are told to change skills.

Again you are saying that because you think I'm picking at you when I'm just picking at the general attitude that if a build isn't the best it sucks - that isn't true because the build only needs to be as good as to accomplish the objective and if it does so in similar amount of time the differences are irrelevant.

That attitude of only certain builds being allowed is what create things like R/Pet tombs, because sometimes the perceived best build isn't the actual best build or just gets outdated.

If the only criteria is power, and power can be measured in PvE by completion speed and success, everyone would be doing speed clears, duo farming, etc.

So we do agree on that.

Quote:

You are free to choose who you want to play with and what builds to run? Yes

Again:

Didn't you just did a dungeon with me the other day? Did it sound I was pissed with you?

Didn't I do other stuff in parties you started and run what you needed?

And look

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You will have to understand that many of the posters here play for 3+ years, some since the beta and one of the few things left is to build the most efficient builds.

Additionally PvE is not only easy but a couple of good players using good builds can mask most of the weakness of bad/inexperienced players.

Add a couple of E/Mo (or even plain good monks) an Imbagon and/or a warrior that know what they are doing and you can finish pretty much every area of this game running X Searing Flame nukers with 5 offensive skills and Intensity on the remaining spots

But that doesn't mean there aren't more powerful builds for Eles, even while running/playing a traditional Elementalist role.

For example, you could run a couple of earth wards in a fire build or some other support skills (once you get pve only skills it will most be these) making your character more of a team player.

Lets take your SF dude - which is quite an energy consuming skill.

Get Mind Blast that is quite a good energy engine. Pair it with Rodgorts Invocation and Liquid Flame, reasonable skills that will damage on par of SF. Add Meteor for some knockdown. Add There is Nothing to Fear (sunspear paragon skill) for some party heal and some damage reduction for a few seconds. Fire Attunement. Signet of return or some rez signet/sunspear signet. And you still have an optional for something like a heat or whatever.

The above build (with no GWEN pve skills), that is still inefficient compared to some stuff you can do these days, will provide some offense (that won't be that great against some HM targets) and provide some utility/party support, that is probably quite more interesting to a party than whatever SF nuker build some players run.

Actually what is important in here isn't the skills/builds but how players approach their builds - Elementalist and most other mid line casters SHOULD provide both OFFENSIVE presence and DEFENSIVE presence.

That is what most players fail to do/understand - they only want to play a uni-dimensional role, when it is doing more than one thing is better due to the game mechanics.

- Frontliners need offense and if they can provide disruption (interrupts, knocks, snares like they should Grasping Earth) or defense (shouts like SY!);

- Midliners need offense and defense - some damage skills, rezzes, some defense skills like wards, snares, disruption, hex/condition removal if they can afford it, etc;

- Backliners should provide heal and protection;

- There are also supporters like Orders/Minion masters/Spirit Spammers characters that should try to fit some of those midliner roles alongside their main role.

If your builds follow the above guidelines, you will be able to create decent builds regardless of any changes that may happen to skills - then it is just a question of choosing the best skills or the skills that are just ok and you like.

Maybe I did post something related to this thread topic.

The fact is that we are in agreement - PuGs are diverse, made by different people.

If you go and PuG with 7 complete strangers chances are they think differently from you.

Even friends and people that play often together can disagree.

That is why there is no PuG meta.

The reason why PuGs probably have a disproportionate number of players that don't understand the game and so are stuck with really bad builds is because the time advantages you get from playing with optimal builds with 8 human parties aren't often enough to counter h/h time or small human teams with heroes.

And of course, some people just couldn't care less about builds and skills.

laksa and curry · Mar 12, 2010, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Healing breeze is still the hallmark on 80% of monk pug groups i join

qvtkc · Mar 12, 2010, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

Healing breeze is still the hallmark on 80% of monk pug groups i join

Yes, this is unfortunately true. While I do understand why they take it, I tend to tell them to remove it, and kick them if they don't.

Jeydra · Mar 13, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

On the other hand, Breeze isn't powered up by Healer's Boon ... I've also seen an ER Protter use Breeze + RoF instead of Infuse. When I pointed out Infuse, he did bring it, but then didn't cast it (=.=).

One frustrating thing I find about PuGs (sometimes at least) is that sometimes players - especially the decent ones - don't trust other players. At all. Example story:

The ZM as I make this post is Gate Too Far. I went to Olafstead and there were lots of people going LFG, so I spammed invites. In the blink of an eye I get a full party of 8, which turns out to be 4 Rangers, one Necro, 2 Ritualists and me (Elementalist). Definitely not balanced, but hey, Gate Too Far isn't a hard mission. There's no reason this team composition can't complete the mission - all that's needed is for one Rit to bring some heals (even just Kaolai + Soothing Memories + Spirit Light should be enough) and for me to ER Infuse.

But then both Rits were SoS and both insisted on being SoS. Both ignored me when I asked one of them to go Restoration, and one of them just quit. Then a Sin joined the party. He had Moebius Death Blossom, which is perfectly fine even though he didn't have Save Yourselves - I just needed the other Rit to go Restoration and we'd blaze through the mission. But the Rit still didn't want to go Restoration, and the Sin saw no Monks and quit as well. With one free hero slot I used a Smiting Monk. Now I didn't need the Rit to go Restoration and we could go, but then the Rit saw one Monk and quit, saying he'd rather not fail. That hurt my feelings, but on the bright side I could use another hero (used a MM). We went in and cleared the mission without problems.

I give credit to the Necro and Rangers for actually sticking with me. Some of them actually had decent builds - Necro had Arcane Echo Spiteful Spirit + Necrosis, which while not ideal isn't bad either, especially considering the team composition. Two Rangers had Barrage (rather wasted in Gate Too Far though because of the lack of targets), another had Burning Arrow and the last Ranger went SoS (lol). But then again, maybe if they'd been just a bit better at the game, they would've raged on seeing the party composition, lol.

Moral:

1. Lots of PvE can be done with imperfect team builds.
2. Trust your party leader. If you doubt his / her abilities, ask to see his / her build(s). Leave only if you're certain they won't work.
3. Don't underestimate ER Infusers.
4. Don't overestimate PvE. A lot can be done by just good technique and appropriate meat walls! Heck earlier today I did a couple of vanquishes with just one henchman Monk and never came close to wiping.
5. When all else fails, H/H.

mage767 · Mar 14, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

While you guys are still arguing about SF and ER, there is a new hot topic for all of you to worry about - it's obsidian flesh (OF), and it is just as potent as SF. Terra tanks are now running amok in the UW.