Curse

Improvavel · Feb 10, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

After this long-winded discussion, you are still adamant that PUGs cannot succeed? If anyone is the narrow-minded one here, it is you. And, er, the guy that called me narrow-minded

Of course PuGs can succeed.

Look at B/P Tombs, Ursa runs, UWSC, DoA runs, Urgoz B/P, Deep Steel wall. They succeed in the past.

Just give pugs simple powerful builds and they will do it - they just wont change it even if there is faster stuff until it stops working.

What PuGs fail to do is be able to finish something with any sort of build that requires stuff like energy management or making decisions.

Give something that is auto-pilot or spam spam and it PuGs will do it.

Nerf Shadow Form and PuGs will happily jump on the next easiest thing like ER E/Mo.

Now try do a PuG without ER E/Mo, Rit Spamming, SY! and consumables and see how good PuGs are.

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

After this long-winded discussion, you are still adamant that PUGs cannot succeed? If anyone is the narrow-minded one here, it is you. And, er, the guy that called me narrow-minded

Learn to read.

Just because pugs may succeed doesn't imply that they are guaranteed to succeed.

LazyLink · Feb 11, 2010, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Learn to read.

Just because pugs may succeed doesn't imply that they are guaranteed to succeed.

no one is guaranteed to succeed, thats a moot point

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyLink

no one is guaranteed to succeed, thats a moot point

With the right players in my full guild/alliance team and proper team build, we can guarantee success. Also I can guarantee successes with most missions using my heroes build.

You can never ever have that kind of assurance with a true PUG.

HigherMinion · Feb 11, 2010, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

With the right players in my full guild/alliance team and proper team build, we can guarantee success. Also I can guarantee successes with most missions using my heroes build.

You can never ever have that kind of assurance with a true PUG.

That's because you pay no bloody attention! This is really irritating now. If you don't want to fail there's an easy way out, organisation. Try being a patient leader of the next ZM, and see how much easier it is when you can make your own team of pugs.

Guildies and alliance folk can fail too. They are as good as pugs if you know how to be patient and fix builds. They can also be PvX goons who run the same as everyone, the people who normally use discord to do everything and are lost in a real team. It's not just PUGs.

Sankt Hallvard · Feb 11, 2010, 12:38 PM // 12:38

There's another point that most of you seem to miss. By getting "better pugging" as per thread title you can achieve this by lowering your expectations rather than making strict demands on the pug.

IMO, when you join a pug you should embrace the higher risk that comes with playing with unknown builds and players. Try to adapt your playing to subpar builds/players, you will learn more and you will likely have a lot more fun. (Which incidentally playing games is all about)

When having a set goal like the ZM you might put more priority in actually completing the objective in a short amount of time but that also means you should seek other options before resorting to a pug, ask friends, ask alliance, run heroes.

IMO it all boils down to this: Do you want to be efficient and farm your titles or do you want to play and have fun?

HigherMinion · Feb 11, 2010, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

There's another point that most of you seem to miss. By getting "better pugging" as per thread title you can achieve this by lowering your expectations rather than making strict demands on the pug.

IMO, when you join a pug you should embrace the higher risk that comes with playing with unknown builds and players. Try to adapt your playing to subpar builds/players, you will learn more and you will likely have a lot more fun. (Which incidentally playing games is all about)

When having a set goal like the ZM you might put more priority in actually completing the objective in a short amount of time but that also means you should seek other options before resorting to a pug, ask friends, ask alliance, run heroes.

IMO it all boils down to this: Do you want to be efficient and farm your titles or do you want to play and have fun?

The good thing about ZM's and ZB's is there is always a large demographic of players and you can find your ideal team in there. Be it physway or caster cluster. It's not just about efficiency for me, it's paranoia that if some skills aren't changed, then these 20 minutes will be wasted.

maxxfury · Feb 11, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I see two distinct versions of the 'pug'

1>you and 7 randoms..
2>you with people you know for the core then filling up with randoms.

The first been the typical pug, which requires you to usually suck it up and deal with who your with and hope for the best! The second (as used by [Thay] in this example?) you cover the bases with trusted people to make a solid stable core then fill the other less vital spots with pugs that have a much better chance% in general of no failing..

Imo these are two pretty different animals, and i can say i prefer the 2nd way more, and thats how i usually do it it possible, be it balanced, physway, or a caster ball. Its usually almost guaranteed that you can cover the skills, or lack of skills from the randoms, and push through a pretty quick clear of the zone/mish....tho this usually doesn't feel like a pug at all.

the first fully 'random' version can be a major bitch at times :P but meh, suck it up, you know what your getting into really..some good, some bad, some idiots, some amazing people you can flist

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

That's because you pay no bloody attention! This is really irritating now. If you don't want to fail there's an easy way out, organisation. Try being a patient leader of the next ZM, and see how much easier it is when you can make your own team of pugs.

Guildies and alliance folk can fail too. They are as good as pugs if you know how to be patient and fix builds. They can also be PvX goons who run the same as everyone, the people who normally use discord to do everything and are lost in a real team. It's not just PUGs.

I dont know why you keep replying the same rubbish over and over without even reading what I said. Stop replying to my posts if you dont want to read them.

If I can get certain players from my guild/alliance to form a guild/alliance team, I know the mission is going to succeed because they are trustworthy. PUGs are not trustworthy simply because they are random strangers! And random strangers have a higher chance of leaving mid mission/going afk/etc. than people I trust. Why are you even arguing with me about that?

HigherMinion · Feb 11, 2010, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I dont know why you keep replying the same rubbish over and over without even reading what I said. Stop replying to my posts if you dont want to read them.

If I can get certain players from my guild/alliance to form a guild/alliance team, I know the mission is going to succeed because they are trustworthy. PUGs are not trustworthy simply because they are random strangers! And random strangers have a higher chance of leaving mid mission/going afk/etc. than people I trust. Why are you even arguing with me about that?

I think this seems more like a misunderstanding of probability. If you don't have all the facts, you ask questions before you can draw a proper conclusion as to wether people won't have time or suffer from sudden disconnects(Which, by the way, even someone you know could suffer from.)

All you have to do is ask. If they answer yes, kick them. And the silly thing is, even a guildie or ally could do the same.

Also, allies are pretty much PUGs too, seeing as you won't play with them ALL that often.

Improvavel · Feb 11, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I think this seems more like a misunderstanding of probability. If you don't have all the facts, you ask questions before you can draw a proper conclusion as to wether people won't have time or suffer from sudden disconnects(Which, by the way, even someone you know could suffer from.)

Or someone you know needs to go walk the dog, yeah?

Quote:

Also, allies are pretty much PUGs too, seeing as you won't play with them ALL that often.

But if you fail to do a thing today you can just retry and experiment tomorrow much more easily.

Or you can know which ones are good or bad and work around it.

HigherMinion · Feb 12, 2010, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Or someone you know needs to go walk the dog, yeah?

Yes, yes. I am guilty!

Improvavel · Feb 12, 2010, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Yes, yes. I am guilty!

Well I'm guilty of mass discing when I'm at my folks place.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I think this seems more like a misunderstanding of probability. If you don't have all the facts, you ask questions before you can draw a proper conclusion as to wether people won't have time or suffer from sudden disconnects(Which, by the way, even someone you know could suffer from.)

All you have to do is ask. If they answer yes, kick them. And the silly thing is, even a guildie or ally could do the same.

Yes, I would make sure to ask if anyone has any intension to sabotage the team by leaving or disconnect or leeroy or afk or misleading us with fake build, before entering mission. That should solve all pug problems once and for all. Right....

byteme! · Feb 12, 2010, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

As I said, PuGs dont use Splinter, so it's totally irrelevant in this discussion.

I PuG and if I'm running SoS then Splinter is stapled to my bar. If you were teamed with me I'd be part of your PuG. So I just proved you wrong and it's relevant to this discussion. It would also make the comparison between a Rt/* and E/Rt a no brainer in favor of the former by a pretty sizable margin. Sure the Ele can go SoGM if a Rit is already present in a team but if there is a remote opportunity for me to pick up a second Rit to run SoGM the Ele is the odd man out. This isn't even about the E/Rt specifically but anyone going */Rt.

Rits aren't as rare as they used to be. It's no longer an anomaly to have multiple Rits on a team. Unless you can be in 100 places at once you cannot be absolutely 100% certain the team composition of each and every single PuG. Going by a single individuals experience and views of what goes on in PuGs is just a single, "Point of View". You cannot and will not speak for everyone or anyone besides yourselves.

So enough of this "Most PuGs do this but don't do that" language. It's all based on ones perception of his/her gaming experience and should not be indicative of the norm. Quite frankly we don't know what other people do in their own time at their own place.

PS. Virtually every R/Rt and RT/R doing FoWSC in a PuG has Splinter on their bar in the current meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Also, allies are pretty much PUGs too, seeing as you won't play with them ALL that often.

Are you speaking on behalf of everyone on this?!

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 12, 2010, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

If you were teamed with me I'd be your PuG.

Clearly none of us have, though, which makes your argument invalid.

byteme! · Feb 12, 2010, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Clearly none of us have, though, which makes your argument invalid.

You are a stranger to me as I am to you. You are a PuG to me just as much as I am to you. This goes for anyone and everyone not associated by means of friends list, alliance, guild, real life friends, family and the like. My argument is valid. Your interpretation of my argument is invalid. If I was in your team and you had never played with me before does this not fall under your "pick up group" criteria? I merely used myself as an example to counter Josip's "PuGs don't use Splinter" statement. I am part of this PuG demographic he speaks of.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 12, 2010, 05:07 AM // 05:07

We claim that PUGs don't run splinter. You claim that because you run splinter in PUGs, you do.

We've never encountered you in a PUG, so your argument is invalid. It doesn't matter if you claim to run splinter weapon in PUGs - we do not observe this occurring in PUGs.

You ask how we know? Well of course, because we don't see PUGs with splinter. So clearly we've either never played with you, or you weren't running splinter when you were.

Lastly, and not directly connected to my prior arguments, if a Guru player, with a brain and such, runs Splinter, does that even count? We at guru run good builds even while in PUGs, that doesn't mean PUGs run good builds or skills, it just means decent players decided to take a jaunt through the roiling sea of shit that is PUGging.

PUGs don't run splinter.

HigherMinion · Feb 12, 2010, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

You are a stranger to me as I am to you. You are a PuG to me just as much as I am to you. This goes for anyone and everyone not associated by means of friends list, alliance, guild, real life friends, family and the like. My argument is valid. Your interpretation of my argument is invalid. If I was in your team and you had never played with me before does this not fall under your "pick up group" criteria? I merely used myself as an example to counter Josip's "PuGs don't use Splinter" statement. I am part of this PuG demographic he speaks of.

It is a valid point. One I was failing to get across. You know, when I said "we're all pugs to eachother."

I also agree you can't say "x profession PUG always run x" Because this is stupid, and depends largely on each player's skill level, and how they think.

There are a large amout of players that run certain skills for some reason:

Warriors

efy Pain- bleh skill. Ursan is also popular among the idiot demographic.

Ranger: Splinter/Troll Bottle- I hate to see the ranger casting his (or her) own Splinter. It simply deduces the DPS to the point where they might aswell not have bothered bringing it.

Well, you get the idea.

ElnoreVarda · Feb 14, 2010, 02:04 AM // 02:04

People play the game differently. The more time you spend on getting good randoms (people that speak english, can type, can ping build, can communicate, dont rage and so on), getting people you know, getting good builds, getting cons and so on. Basically, the more time you spend outside the misson/area/blah, the less time you will have to spend inside it. With better builds and preparation, you wont need to use fancy tactics (basic stuff such as pulling, switching wep sets, balling, kiting etc) stop to recouperate, handling people that leave or crap like that. Likewise, if you pull, dont mind resing, go slow and bother with that stuff, you wont need as strong builds.

PUGs arent any different from other people; there are more bad people than good people, so any given person are more likely to be bad than good. Its also very easy to invite and kick pugs until you find a player that suits your taste and needs. Also, just as a pug might be good, an alliance member can be bad (assuming you dont have any extensive knowledge about them).

What to do and not to do in a pug is up to the individual player. What floats my boat might not float yours. Some people like to order others around, some are loot maniacs, some just want to relax, some like to troll, some want friends and the list goes on forever. There are no right or wrong black and whites, there are more and less acceptable/popular behaviors.