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Old Jan 25, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52   #81
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
Yes actually.
Savannah Heat, Searing Flames spam, Meteor Shower, Deep Freeze (+Maelstrom) etc.. - all threatening in HM and most are spammed in EotN.
These nukes can eat your henchmen alive unless you get some prots up or flag them apart. Individual humans, no matter how incompetent tend to be much more spread out than the AI and hence telling them to clump up into wards is a bit counter-productive.
And of all those skills only SF has a recharge low enough for it to be used more than once in a battle. The rest of the "nukes" as you call them should be drawn out by the frontliners.

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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
Vekk
The what now? First, I don't bring heroes in PUGs, and second, they are utterly brainless when it comes to preprotting.

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Originally Posted by ShivaTwoDelta View Post
Seen monks run out of my ward of stability and vs melee to die 2 meters outside of it. Good game.
Yeah that's why I prefer an imbagon. lol

Last edited by qvtkc; Jan 25, 2010 at 07:56 PM // 19:56..
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09   #82
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Originally Posted by qvtkc
And of all those skills only SF has a recharge low enough for it to be used more than once in a battle. The rest of the "nukes" as you call them should be drawn out by the frontliners.
But they don't necessarily need to use it more than once per battle. Enemies have boosted damage, movement and casting time. They also have more than one skill, and those skills are going to hit hard in HM. Perhaps less so on the higher armour characters, but your squishier characters are going to feel it, and feel it hard, especially if it's from a boss. If they all ball up together vs. say, Korshek the Immolated in HM, whoever's keeping the red bars up is going to have a pretty hard time of it. How fast can you heal everyone before the next nuke comes in? Also, what happens if there's a few of them on your case?

Also, to quote another post of yours:

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Of course, it takes a bit of organization to manipulate aggro correctly. That is a teamwide job in GW, unlike other similar games, but it's usually too hard for PUGs to do it.
That too, and of course you can expect someone not to notice the fact that s/he's in a ward and run straight out of it into an incoming attack - or, in the case of the Diamondshard Mist wards in Dragrimmar, "Why am I bleeding?"

Last edited by glacialphoenix; Jan 25, 2010 at 08:19 PM // 20:19..
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15   #83
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Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
The what now? First, I don't bring heroes in PUGs, and second, they are utterly brainless when it comes to preprotting.
Come on, it's not hard to micro just one skill before aggro. And more often than not I feel safer with Vekk than I do with a PuG monk.
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54   #84
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Come on, it's not hard to micro just one skill before aggro. And more often than not I feel safer with Vekk than I do with a PuG monk.
Well, maybe you do (maybe I do, too, now when I think of it), but the topic is PUGs and Vekk is left at the nearest outpost, trying to scam the material trader.
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11   #85
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Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
It is not prejudice, it is already a well known FACT that primary rits make better spirit spammers than secondary rits and primary rits are abundant.

If you like to play the role of a spirit spammer, why not just play a primary rit? There is no need to be a E/Rt spirit spammer wannabe unless the person doesnt know how to play an Ele.
People play the role of SS because SS rits may not always be available. And The Josip has given proof that the difference is not that great between two very common SS builds we see in PUGs. "Massacre" as 10% is clearly an overstatement unless you can prove otherwise using common PUG builds.

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Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Damage in HM comes to a great deal from melee enemies. While imbagons are great, especially with the somewhat unorganized way most PUGs play, warders do provide more potential for damage decrease - as long as everyone stays in the ward. Also, while the +100 armor from SY! is great, blocking/blind/blurred protects against armor-ignoring damage as well.
Still, with most PUGs, I'd go with an imbagon.
I disagree with the statement that the +armor from wards are as good as 24/7 SY the one third reduction and heal of TNTF. It just doesn't seem likely.

There is no need for blocking, blind, blurred if there is ample Enfeebling blood which every necro and their mother and stepmother takes.

Then you also need to consider that nukes could rape your team as well inside wards (Not just damage wise in which HM damage is still felt through wards). KD from MS, burning from Searing/Tenai, interrupt from maelstrom.
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28   #86
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Then you also need to consider that nukes could rape your team as well inside wards (Not just damage wise in which HM damage is still felt through wards). KD from MS, burning from Searing/Tenai, interrupt from maelstrom.
I really would want to play with you people. You'd never worry about nukes from the AI again.
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41   #87
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Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
I really would want to play with you people. You'd never worry about nukes from the AI again.
We'll take your word for it.

But since I'm running an imbagon and my friends can run ER protter, we don't need to worry about nukes.

Of course if you want to PvE, sure! The more the merrier! Just don't bring your warder.
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 11:45 PM // 23:45   #88
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Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
People play the role of SS because SS rits may not always be available. And The Josip has given proof that the difference is not that great between two very common SS builds we see in PUGs. "Massacre" as 10% is clearly an overstatement unless you can prove otherwise using common PUG builds.
Everybody has been saying that primary rits are abundant including yourself. Furthermore, "The Josip" was wrong to claim that the damage difference between a primary rit and a secondary rit is only 1% when other posters (e.g. "Arrogant Bastard" page 3 post #46 on this thread) on this thread has shown it to be about 10%. On top of that, "The Josip" totally ignored the additional tanking capabilities of spirits with higher level, armor, duration, armor of unfeeling, and spawning power from primary rits. His arguments were flawed from the start.

For a popular class like rits, EVEN if "The Jossip" is right that ERt SS is only 1% inferior (which it is not), it is going to be a hard sell for you to convince everyone why your ERt spirit spammer wannabe should be used instead of the other available primary rits spirit spammers out there. Why even lose the 1% when I dont need to? And even if there are no available primary rits, I would still prefer to bring a rit hero and micro her, considering both offense and defense advantages over the pug ERt.

Last edited by Daesu; Jan 26, 2010 at 01:34 AM // 01:34..
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 12:01 AM // 00:01   #89
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My policy is to kick anyone from a team if they think I want them to ping so I can "Steal their build". From my own personal experience anyone who honestly believes they have discovered something the rest of the community doesn't know by now in a game as old as Guild wars is going to be bad 99% of the time, and average the other 1%. A hero is better than an idiot like that.
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10   #90
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
My policy is to kick anyone from a team if they think I want them to ping so I can "Steal their build".
I like your policy.

I've never understood that mentality myself. I mean, if I actually wanted to steal your build, I wouldn't ask you to ping... I'd just watch you ingame to see which skills you used.

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Originally Posted by MasterSasori
There is no need for blocking, blind, blurred if there is ample Enfeebling blood which every necro and their mother and stepmother takes.
I wish this was actually the case.

Of course, I also wish people had the common sense to run out of ROJ, but no. Which IMO is a pretty good reason against bringing anything more than maybe one ward in PUGs - they just won't notice it. If they don't notice ROJ right on them... they won't notice a ward.

Last edited by glacialphoenix; Jan 26, 2010 at 01:12 AM // 01:12..
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08   #91
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Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Everybody has been saying that primary rits are abundant including yourself. Furthermore, "The Josip" was wrong to claim that the damage difference between a primary rit and a secondary rit is only 1% when other posters (e.g. "Arrogant Bastard" page 3 post #46 on this thread) on this thread has shown it to be about 10%. On top of that, "The Josip" totally ignored the additional tanking capabilities of spirits with higher level, armor, duration, armor of unfeeling, and spawning power from primary rits. His arguments were flawed from the start.

For a popular class like rits, EVEN if "The Jossip" is right that ERt SS is only 1% inferior (which it is not), it is going to be a hard sell for you to convince everyone why your ERt spirit spammer wannabe should be used instead of the other available primary rits spirit spammers out there. Why even lose the 1% when I dont need to? And even if there are no available primary rits, I would still prefer to bring a rit hero and micro her, considering both offense and defense advantages over the pug ERt.
Excuse me, misquoted Arrogant Bastard. Yes I was referring to the 10% difference that Arrogant Bastard had posted.

My argument is not why I would take this or that in my party. I agree with what you stated. I do however, disagree that a 10% is a "massacre" which it is not.


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Originally Posted by glacialphoenix View Post
I wish this was actually the case.

Of course, I also wish people had the common sense to run out of ROJ, but no. Which IMO is a pretty good reason against bringing anything more than maybe one ward in PUGs - they just won't notice it. If they don't notice ROJ right on them... they won't notice a ward.
If pugs don't notice wards, how would bringing even ONE useful? You basically have to run to them to place it on them to help them against AoE.

Last edited by MasterSasori; Jan 26, 2010 at 04:11 AM // 04:11..
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32   #92
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu View Post
A hero is better than an idiot like that.
True, very true, but hero's also make the game extremely boring.

OP and I play GW for over 4 years together and we can easely complete most things if we both add 3 heros. On my ele I invested over 120K on runes alone for heros, lol. I know in most cases we'll do it fast and good with 6 heros, my friend being a warrior going in first and me with the caster heros staying at a safe distance. But like I said, after a few years, this gets boring and I long for teamplay. I want to feel part of a team of people who play with me. Especially when I'm monk. Nothing more boring than healing Koss.

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Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
Then you also need to consider that nukes could rape your team as well inside wards (Not just damage wise in which HM damage is still felt through wards). KD from MS, burning from Searing/Tenai, interrupt from maelstrom.
Any decent team should never let an enemy caster allow to complete the casting of Meteor Shower.
As for Searing Flame spamming Ruby Djinns, I'd dare to say that the ruby should be your primary target when engaging. For as far as I know the djinn groups are never assisted by a monk, so there you go.

What wards vs imba concerns. I don't get the anti wards attitude here. It's not just about casting a ward and stand in it like a zombie.
I could list a couple things that gonna make a para useless as well, but I'll save us the debate. No matter what you go with, if you have players with a brain, you'll make it either way.

Last edited by ShivaTwoDelta; Jan 26, 2010 at 03:39 PM // 15:39..
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 06:19 AM // 06:19   #93
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Originally Posted by ShivaTwoDelta View Post
Edit:
Any decent team should never let an enemy caster allow to complete the casting of Meteor Shower.
As for Searing Flame spamming Ruby Djinns, I'd dare to say that the ruby should be your primary target when engaging. For as far as I know the djinn groups are never assisted by a monk, so there you go.

What wards vs imba concerns. I don't get the anti wards attitude here. It's not just about casting a ward and stand in it like a zombie.
I could list a couple things that gonna make a para useless as well, but I'll save us the debate. No matter what you go with, if you have players with a brain, you'll make it either way.
MS is just an example of a nuke that has the potential for devastation if left unheeded. As you stated, a good team won't let MS be cast, but mistakes happen and a slip up causes more widespread problems and even a potential wipe.

For wards, there isn't much room for you to move in so though standing isn't the best idea, a wanderlust isn't ideal either.
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Old Jan 28, 2010, 09:44 AM // 09:44   #94
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Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one.
I couldn't disagree with this more. When I'm playing with h/h, I don't bring a res skill. There's no need to. Things go as I planned pretty much every time and in case something goes wrong, my 3 heroes have res skills. However, when I PUG, I bring Rebirth if I don't need to use my 2ndary profession (with the exception of missions where running then rebirthing isn't much of an option). This is because PUG is unpredictable and I don't know if we're going to encounter a wipe situation.

Healers don't need 8 skills to heal effectively, just like DPS players don't need 8 skills to DPS effectively. Being a veteran, I know ahead of time when things will go sour. Bringing Rebirth makes it that much easier to res my teammates when I'm one of the only players to have run to safety preventing a full wipe. I'm I'm a healer, I'm usually the farthest from danger and it's much easier to run to safety since I'm the farthest from the enemies.

My heroes follow a similar rule. All my non-healer heroes bring res skills that can be used in battle. All my healers bring Rebirth. This is because of the reason I stated above; Healers are the farthest from the enemies and the easiest to run to prevent full wipe when things go bad.
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Old Jan 28, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00   #95
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I couldn't disagree with this more. When I'm playing with h/h, I don't bring a res skill. There's no need to. Things go as I planned pretty much every time and in case something goes wrong, my 3 heroes have res skills. However, when I PUG, I bring Rebirth if I don't need to use my 2ndary profession (with the exception of missions where running then rebirthing isn't much of an option). This is because PUG is unpredictable and I don't know if we're going to encounter a wipe situation.
You completely agree, but you bring Rebirth?

This is the point the OP is making. I'm going to assume you're a monk, or your post would be confusing and pointless. A physical or Rit will generally be able to get a Res on their bar without making the team's survivability suffer.

Rebirth is the worst resurrection skill in the game, due to the depletion of energy after casting; and long casting time anyway. Resurrect is also terrible because you return with only 25% health and no energy to keep safe.
[Renew Life, Restore life, Resurrection Chant, Flesh of My Flesh, signet of return] These would be the most optimal on a PUG team; a warrior can fit them in, a paragon or Ritualist. Plenty of space not to need one on a monk.
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Old Jan 28, 2010, 11:33 AM // 11:33   #96
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You completely agree, but you bring Rebirth?
I think he said he disagreed.

That being said, Rebirth is a last-ditch resort, and he's got a point in that PUGs are unpredictable and can have near-wipe situations. If the other monk's got UA, fine. If the physicals or the ritualists actually bother to bring a flippin' rez, fine. All too frequently, they don't; or sometimes, they DO bring a rez and then proceed to aggro the hell out of everything. If only the two monks are left standing, there's a bunch of very angry monsters near the corpses, and one of them is running Resurrection Chant and the other Rebirth, I'd be thankful that the other one brought Rebirth, because of the fact that it teleports the guy to you.

Of course, if we're talking about in-battle rezzes, Rebirth is the single worst idea ever.

It works as a last-ditch resort to save your party from dying in the middle of a long mission; it shouldn't have to work as more than that. And I guess it depends on how much you expect someone in your group to die in an annoyingly hard-to-reach place.

Last edited by glacialphoenix; Jan 28, 2010 at 11:39 AM // 11:39..
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Old Jan 28, 2010, 02:27 PM // 14:27   #97
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
Rebirth is the worst resurrection skill in the game, due to the depletion of energy after casting; and long casting time anyway. Resurrect is also terrible because you return with only 25% health and no energy to keep safe.
[Renew Life, Restore life, Resurrection Chant, Flesh of My Flesh, signet of return] These would be the most optimal on a PUG team; a warrior can fit them in, a paragon or Ritualist. Plenty of space not to need one on a monk.
Rebirth is not meant to be used during combat. Comparing Rebirth against another in-combat resurrection skill is as pointless as comparing apples against oranges.

Depending on the mission, certain resurrection skills are more useful than others. Rebirth is useful in those tough HM missions where a party wipe would fail it, but the area is open enough to allow back line casters like monks to break aggro when necessary. Remember you are going with a PUG team afterall, not a super souped-up elite guild team.

Sometimes, in such missions, you can find monsters camping on bodies. When that happens you would find Rebirth to be more useful than any of those other res skills you listed.

Last edited by Daesu; Jan 28, 2010 at 02:30 PM // 14:30..
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Old Jan 28, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27   #98
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Originally Posted by ShivaTwoDelta View Post
Any decent team should never let an enemy caster allow to complete the casting of Meteor Shower.
As for Searing Flame spamming Ruby Djinns, I'd dare to say that the ruby should be your primary target when engaging. For as far as I know the djinn groups are never assisted by a monk, so there you go.
1. Pretty sure there's some mixed Djinn/Summit mobs in Forgewight where the Djinn have monk backup. For that matter, they're often paired with Flowstone Elementals, whose Savannah Heat is even more of a threat for H+H/stupid people.

2. There's a number of places in UW and Perdition rock where the number of monsters with Meteor Shower is going to exceed the number of interrupts your team can reasonably carry. Same is true for Searing Flames (Blisterbark's mob), Deep Freeze (multiple places, Talus Chute HM probably has the most in 1 spot), and most other "heavy nukes" as well. While you should be disrupting these skills when you can, you need to accept that you will get hit with them sometimes, and plan accordingly.

---

Regarding rebirth:

This is a skill of very limited usefulness. You can use it for near-wipe recovery if someone managed to run away, and the team's bodies are camped by monsters. However, rez scroll now offers the same functionality. How often are you going to be the last person standing, and find your teammates camped badly enough you need the 1.2 aggro radius teleport, but not so badly that a 1.0 aggro radius teleport won't do?
(I should probably also add that I used to use it for a battle rez on a necro (with a low energy set) waaay back in Prophecies back when none of the other rezzes would pop you up "ready to go," so the safety of the teleport outweighed the bad numbers upon rez.)

----

Regarding Spirit Spam:

Primary Ritualists are just better. This should be a no-brainer. Runes mean more health/armor/damage on the spirits. Spawning means more health on the spirits and some available skills that synergize with spirits. The only other class whose primary offers anything directly synergistic with spirits is Ranger. Ele and Necro can run more energy-intensive builds, but spirit spam generally doesn't require more energy than Siphon provides.
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Old Jan 28, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44   #99
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Ele and Necro can run more energy-intensive builds, but spirit spam generally doesn't require more energy than Siphon provides.
With a little bit of practice it's not too difficult to keep 7 spirits up with no energy management skills.
Well ok, Anguish will have some downtime inevitably.
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Old Jan 29, 2010, 12:36 AM // 00:36   #100
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Depending on the mission, certain resurrection skills are more useful than others. Rebirth is useful in those tough HM missions where a party wipe would fail it, but the area is open enough to allow back line casters like monks to break aggro when necessary. Remember you are going with a PUG team afterall, not a super souped-up elite guild team.

Sometimes, in such missions, you can find monsters camping on bodies. When that happens you would find Rebirth to be more useful than any of those other res skills you listed.
But why not just use rez scrolls and save a slot? I'd like to do as much bar compression as possible and forgo rez if I bring a scroll. Besides people like scrolls better.

WTB plant fiber.
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