Curse

Malician · Jan 23, 2010, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

He says that he takes PuGs as they are and assumes things about certain professions that tend to have especially bad players.

If you start with the proposition that, to be polite / nice / fun/ whatever you can't fix people's builds, then you end up rejecting warriors and assassins. Minion can help these people have fun playing in his parties.

The Josip · Jan 23, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

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Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I have sometimes been in an outpost for over an hour building a good party. Time isn't an issue for me

That's different, I was talking about the usual anonymous PuGs you try to grab faster and just do ZM ZQ, random mission and such.

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I like assassins, when they run DPS builds, and quick-attack skills. Warriors are good also, churning out SY and taking advantage of GDW and sometimes SoH or MoP (Which are rather common in my teams)

I don't understand your prejudice. Explain.

Attitude/manners, boasting, badmouthing, bad skill, bad skillbar, bad aggro, tanking concept, tunnel vision, lack of coordination..

As I said in the game, it goes back to prophecy days and beginning of factions. some classes seemed to have much more immature/incompetent playerbase, and/or it was easier to notice that in these classes.

See how your thinking style is different - you start thinking "ah but assassin can be good with these skills and....". Yes, good assassin in a good team. Good assassin in a bad team will not have all that support, and bad assassin in a good team will just cause headache to the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

You would accept it because not everything in PvE is Slaver's Exile and it would be nice for once to have some damn fun.

Exactly. And that's what I do. Sometimes I also tell them that their build will do very little damage (but im still ok with it just for the fun of it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Nope your ERt build (from Page 3) doesn't use EVAS or PI.

E/Rt:
Ghostly Might
Pain
Shadowsong
Disenchantment
Anguish
Siphon
Summon
Rez/something

That was secondary Rt build, meant to show something else.

You didn't post your 8 skill build.

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You would be stupid to use the exact same build as the Earth henchman. For one, a human player can use PvE skills that heroes and henchman can't.

I'm just commenting on other people builds you know. The one posted earlier here. So if you don't like his build you can talk to him not me. And besides, not every PuG takes 3 PvE skills, or any PvE skills for that matter. Various reasons.

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That is because you have not met a good human pug player. I usually dont disconnect, and I dont rage quit, leech/go afk, aggro mob and get everyone killed, etc. and I pug.

It happens very often in a PuG team. Just yesterday I played in HigherMinion's team and we had 1 quitter in the beginning (not really sure what happened). Thing is, henchmen won't quit, and humans may have IRL emergencies, or network problems, or just ragequit issues.
For instance, at one point HigherMinion disconnected. Let's say he failed to reconnect. What then? Mission failed because he was healer.
It was a great team, but I'm just saying it's not all about skillbars, with humans there's always human factor.

HigherMinion · Jan 23, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

It happens very often in a PuG team. Just yesterday I played in HigherMinion's team and we had 1 quitter in the beginning (not really sure what happened). Thing is, henchmen won't quit, and humans may have IRL emergencies, or network problems, or just ragequit issues.
For instance, at one point HigherMinion disconnected. Let's say he failed to reconnect. What then? Mission failed because he was healer.
It was a great team, but I'm just saying it's not all about skillbars, with humans there's always human factor.

This isn't just with PUGs, however. You have to include people you know/guildies/allies. Even though you are more likely to party with them than us.

The Josip · Jan 23, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

That's true, but I was merely replying on his henchman vs pug comment.

Daesu · Jan 23, 2010, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

That was secondary Rt build, meant to show something else.

You didn't post your 8 skill build.

So you recommended an ERt build that doesn't make use of the damage from PvE skills? How is that superior to any usual AP EA build?

Quote:

I'm just commenting on other people builds you know. The one posted earlier here. So if you don't like his build you can talk to him not me. And besides, not every PuG takes 3 PvE skills, or any PvE skills for that matter. Various reasons.

I was talking about YOU as the Ele player. Not every PUG player brings a decent skill bar but that doesn't mean you have to follow them and lower your own standards.

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It happens very often in a PuG team. Just yesterday I played in HigherMinion's team and we had 1 quitter ...

What has that got to do with builds? The flaw in your argument is to claim that the best PUG build for an Ele is a ERt spirit spammer. That is untrue because:

1. Primary Ritualists make better spirit spammers. This we all agree on even though you tried to play it down by claiming that they are just 1% better when many of us have already shown you that primary rits are significantly better at that role than a ERt.

2. Primary Ritualists spirit spammers are plentiful so there is no need to gimp yourself by playing a ERt spirit spammer wannabe in a PUG! Even if you can't find a human primary rit in party search, you can simply add a rit hero spirit spammer since the bar is so simple that even a hero can run it. So when is there a use for your wannabe ERt secondary spirit spammer build?

The Josip · Jan 23, 2010, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I was talking about YOU as the Ele player.

I don't play as ele.

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So you recommended an ERt build that doesn't make use of the damage from PvE skills? How is that superior to any usual AP EA build?

To what usual AP EA build? First you'll have to post 1 build with 8 skills then we can discuss what's superior.

So far you'be been avoiding it in every post but I'll keep reminding you. Let's see if you can be constructive a bit.

Quote:

The flaw in your argument is to claim that the best PUG build for an Ele is a ERt spirit spammer. That is untrue because:

1. Primary Ritualists make better spirit spammers.

The flaw in my argument?

Re-read your 'argument', it contains serious logical fallacy. Basically, you're claiming that XY isn't the fastest car because airplane is faster.

Quote:

Even if you can't find a human primary rit in party search, you can simply add a rit hero spirit spammer since the bar is so simple that even a hero can run it.

You're do desperate. You're trying to use my own argument against me (earth henchman vs earth ele). No, hero can't run spirit spam properly because his spirits will often hit the wall due to bad placement, he cant take summon spirits, he doesn't recast SoS so if there's alive SoS half a mile behind he won't recast it for the new mob, he will need to be microed all the time or his spirits will die in a simple AoE (unlike Herta who doesnt need to be microed but just places Ward around everyone). He won't cast Siphon properly. So if you wanted to prove that Razah will be better spirit spammer than E/Rt you failed. And at the end of a day I can take Rt spirit spammer, why not, it will not be subject to human factor, but will require much more effort.

Daesu · Jan 23, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I don't play as ele.

If you dont have experience playing an ele yourself, then you shouldn't be recommending and arguing with others to play a ERt spirit spammer.

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To what usual AP EA build? First you'll have to post 1 build with 8 skills then we can discuss what's superior.

There are lots of AP EA build out there. If you really want to look at one of them:

[build prof=E/A][Assassin's Promise]["You Move Like a Dwarf!" or Pain Inverter][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support]["Finish Him!"][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Churning Earth][Eruption][Ward Against Melee][/build]

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You're do desperate. You're trying to use my own argument against me (earth henchman vs earth ele). No, hero can't run spirit spam properly because his spirits will often hit the wall due to bad placement,

If you dont even know how to use a simple hero then you fail in PvE.

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he will need to be microed all the time or his spirits will die in a simple AoE (unlike Herta who doesnt need to be microed but just places Ward around everyone).

Henchies suck compared to heroes, it is not because henchies AI is superior to heroes AI it is because you can't micro henchies skills even if you want to!

At the end of the day, a rit hero under the hands of a good player is still better than a ERt spirit spammer wannabe.

HigherMinion · Jan 23, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Has this argument about x/Rts being as good as spirit spammers as Rt/ relevant to the main subject; PUG improvement?

Jeydra · Jan 24, 2010, 09:17 AM // 09:17

I can't agree with bringing Res because in general I think Res is a waste (only use hard resses; UA and Death Pact Signet especially), although the characters with the Res need to know to use it at once after someone dies. That's when heroes come into play - players are better off bringing an additional DPS skill.

Also something not mentioned: if someone asks you to ping your build, do it, because if you don't they can't tell what roles they still need to fill in the team. Example: Ritualist joins the party. If the Rit doesn't ping his build, the party leader can't know if he's Restoration or if he's spirit-spamming. Assassin joins the party. If the Assassin doesn't ping his build, the party leader can't know if he's using Daggers (wherupon he can bring Strength of Honour / GDW / Splinter Weapon etc on his heroes or himself), or if he's AP calling (wherupon those skills are wasted). Et cetera.

Me, when I PuG, I just invite whoever is in the area, check their builds out, plug the missing links with heroes / henchmen and go. As one might guess, I'm not one famous for patience, and I can't really imagine how people wait an hour creating the perfect party to do something you can blaze through easily ...

PS: @the E/Rt argument - it's really simple actually. Primary Rits are going to massacre E/Rt's at spirit spamming for obvious reasons. Still, if there are no primary Rits in the party (or if the primary Rits aren't spirit spamming), and if the party needs you as a damage character, then by all means go ahead and spirit spam. Aside from your being less effective than a primary Rit, nothing stopping you.

MasterSasori · Jan 24, 2010, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I can't agree with bringing Res because in general I think Res is a waste (only use hard resses; UA and Death Pact Signet especially), although the characters with the Res need to know to use it at once after someone dies. That's when heroes come into play - players are better off bringing an additional DPS skill.

Res is only a waste if everyone in the team doesn't die frequently and are reliable enough. When you pug, it's not often to get a decent monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As one might guess, I'm not one famous for patience, and I can't really imagine how people wait an hour creating the perfect party to do something you can blaze through easily ...

A little more patience and planning can go a long way. Like the time we went to Slaver's and our party like exploded at the second group?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: @the E/Rt argument - it's really simple actually. Primary Rits are going to massacre E/Rt's at spirit spamming for obvious reasons. Still, if there are no primary Rits in the party (or if the primary Rits aren't spirit spamming), and if the party needs you as a damage character, then by all means go ahead and spirit spam. Aside from your being less effective than a primary Rit, nothing stopping you.

Massacre is an overstatement. Primary rits still win out but another class can still be an effective spirit spammer. The main problem I see is prejudices against other classes as spirit spammers and the abundance of rits out there that another class going spirits is looked down upon.

Daesu · Jan 25, 2010, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Massacre is an overstatement. Primary rits still win out but another class can still be an effective spirit spammer. The main problem I see is prejudices against other classes as spirit spammers and the abundance of rits out there that another class going spirits is looked down upon.

It is not prejudice, it is already a well known FACT that primary rits make better spirit spammers than secondary rits and primary rits are abundant.

If you like to play the role of a spirit spammer, why not just play a primary rit? There is no need to be a E/Rt spirit spammer wannabe unless the person doesnt know how to play an Ele.

Jeydra · Jan 25, 2010, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Res is only a waste if everyone in the team doesn't die frequently and are reliable enough. When you pug, it's not often to get a decent monk.

A little more patience and planning can go a long way. Like the time we went to Slaver's and our party like exploded at the second group?

Massacre is an overstatement. Primary rits still win out but another class can still be an effective spirit spammer. The main problem I see is prejudices against other classes as spirit spammers and the abundance of rits out there that another class going spirits is looked down upon.

Well when I PuG I can see what the Monks are running, so it's not that bad. If someone brings a bar with 8 heals, fine, he can (usually) still heal almost as well as Mhenlo. If the mission / quest we're doing is hard, I can supplement him with ER Prot myself. Otherwise just having Aegis and Prot Spirit on a hero I can micro is usually enough.

That Forgewight run was a mistake

I don't see it as a patience problem though, because before we left I saw no problems with the build we had. A bit more patience and we might've remembered to bring Frozen Soil, but that's it. I learned from that run that ER heroes simply cannot be trusted, and while human ER + two Smiters is more than enough, you need a human ER.

And yeah massacre is an overstatement, when the difference (according to earlier in this thread) is about 10%. Still primary Rits are simply better, and E/Rt's are worse than N/Rt's at spirit spamming. With no advantage to speak of, why bother? Go ahead and spam spirits if there's no spirit spammer already in the party and if the party needs you as a damage character, but it's just foolish to defend E/Rt spirit spamming in general.

qvtkc · Jan 25, 2010, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

(...) dervishes and warriors and assassins, because I think they're only worth it if team build revolves around them (read: buffs)

Sorry, but you just lost all credibility. If you take melee characters, there's no reason to not take buffs. See step 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Oh yeah I also forgot to mention what makes you think that a warder with blurred vision could do more fore defense than an imbagon? Are you suggesting that taking a Ele with blurred vision and wards would be a better idea in HM than an imbagon?

Damage in HM comes to a great deal from melee enemies. While imbagons are great, especially with the somewhat unorganized way most PUGs play, warders do provide more potential for damage decrease - as long as everyone stays in the ward. Also, while the +100 armor from SY! is great, blocking/blind/blurred protects against armor-ignoring damage as well.
Still, with most PUGs, I'd go with an imbagon.

Xenomortis · Jan 25, 2010, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

as long as everyone stays in the ward. Also, while the +100 armor from SY! is great, blocking/blind/blurred protects against armor-ignoring damage as well.
Still, with most PUGs, I'd go with an imbagon.

So, we either stand still in the ward and get hit by the nukes, or we move out of the nukes and take very little damage?
The trouble with wards is that you need to stay in them.

There's little reason to bring such defense. SY and a couple of prots/debuffs on the midline will easily suffice (Aegis, PS and Enfeebling Blood somewhere and you're done).

qvtkc · Jan 25, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

So, we either stand still in the ward and get hit by the nukes, or we move out of the nukes and take very little damage?
The trouble with wards is that you need to stay in them.

The neuwwwwwwks

What nukes? On occasion there will be mobs with Meteor Shower, which would hit the frontliners since such mobs always cast MS early on. Stuff like Searing Heat, nightfall mobs with SF or ESurge is a little more of a threat, but still not a big deal.
Of course, it takes a bit of organization to manipulate aggro correctly. That is a teamwide job in GW, unlike other similar games, but it's usually too hard for PUGs to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

There's little reason to bring such defense. SY and a couple of prots/debuffs on the midline will easily suffice (Aegis, PS and Enfeebling Blood somewhere and you're done).

I am a huge fan of Enfeebling Blood. Less huge fan of PS, not because it's a bad skill (it's not, it's great), but because most PUG monks can't handle it correctly.

Xenomortis · Jan 25, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

What nukes? On occasion there will be mobs with Meteor Shower, which would hit the frontliners since such mobs always cast MS early on. Stuff like Searing Heat, nightfall mobs with SF or ESurge is a little more of a threat, but still not a big deal.

Yes actually.
Savannah Heat, Searing Flames spam, Meteor Shower, Deep Freeze (+Maelstrom) etc.. - all threatening in HM and most are spammed in EotN.
These nukes can eat your henchmen alive unless you get some prots up or flag them apart. Individual humans, no matter how incompetent tend to be much more spread out than the AI and hence telling them to clump up into wards is a bit counter-productive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I am a huge fan of Enfeebling Blood. Less huge fan of PS, not because it's a bad skill (it's not, it's great), but because most PUG monks can't handle it correctly.

Vekk.

Wakka · Jan 25, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Its not like its exactly hard to use PS? lol

ShivaTwoDelta · Jan 25, 2010, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

So, we either stand still in the ward and get hit by the nukes, or we move out of the nukes and take very little damage?
The trouble with wards is that you need to stay in them.

There's little reason to bring such defense. SY and a couple of prots/debuffs on the midline will easily suffice (Aegis, PS and Enfeebling Blood somewhere and you're done).

On rare occasions I'll run a ward or two.
Like when doing the curse of the nornbear in HM, ward of stability proved very helpfull. Combined with "I Am Unstoppable!" to ensure my ward cast won't be interrupted by a knockdown and to provide extra armor and anti cripple, I also like to put these on my ele bar when doing Dragons Lair for the warrior level.

In general I rather go full damage because most pug players ignore wards.
Seen monks run out of my ward of stability and vs melee to die 2 meters outside of it. Good game.

HigherMinion · Jan 25, 2010, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

So, we either stand still in the ward and get hit by the nukes, or we move out of the nukes and take very little damage?
The trouble with wards is that you need to stay in them.

There's little reason to bring such defense. SY and a couple of prots/debuffs on the midline will easily suffice (Aegis, PS and Enfeebling Blood somewhere and you're done).

Xeno is right. If you have SY, you only need to have PS for whoever intends to aggro all the shit, then the rest of your team can sweep it away. Overkill on protection/heals hurts the team more if you can't kill things fast enough.

And I don't see wards helping much. Get Knocked Down, expect it to happen 3 or so times during a Jotun fight, but after that use the skills you were going to use before you got KDd. I mean come on, you were expecting to get knocked down, if you were interrupted using a spell, fool on you.

Daesu · Jan 25, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Yes actually.
Savannah Heat, Searing Flames spam, Meteor Shower, Deep Freeze (+Maelstrom) etc.. - all threatening in HM and most are spammed in EotN.
These nukes can eat your henchmen alive unless you get some prots up or flag them apart. Individual humans, no matter how incompetent tend to be much more spread out than the AI and hence telling them to clump up into wards is a bit counter-productive.

I tend to agree. I only bring 1 ward, WAM, on my Ele and that gets used rarely so it gets replaced with a res if it makes sense to bring one for the particular mission.

There are times when PUG monks dont use PS well or are too busy just healing and many PUG necros dont seem to like to bring enfeebling blood. Imbagons are also not common for PUGs, so bringing WAM can be useful but only sometimes. I use it more for myself by making melee monsters stand in AoE with my Ele in the ward.

The problem with Eles is that their elemental damage tend to suck in HM with the higher level and armor of the monsters. This is why I focused my Ele HM build towards AP+PvE skills for armor ignoring damage and high damage, high recharge, AoE spells that also provide good utility.