Curse

Daesu · Jan 22, 2010, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

I can forgive pretty much anything else (except refusal to ping builds and the lack of attunement on eles, both of which were already covered) but the above two are crimes against humanity.

Like I said, the lack of attunement on eles is actually a blessing especially in areas with enchant removals. AP+GoLE is usually good enough to replace attunement, besides attunement doesn't help with PvE skills.

Malician · Jan 22, 2010, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Agreed, esp. re: terrible warrior builds. Ele nukers are the worst, though. I don't need the friggin' damage reduction and the damage itself sucks so bad =//

//AP nuke or sin spam not so bad
///BUT NO-ONE RUNS IT

Arrogant Bastard · Jan 22, 2010, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Pale shadow of a rit? Yea right, 1% difference is pale shadow. Sounds like someone is scared of competition.

A PuG has absolutely no reason to be nit-picky about 1% of damage, and "same builds" happen rarely. There's always some difference among spirit spammers in my PuG teams.

What you're saying has absolutely no touch with reality, and is no use to this discussion. Using the same logic you're using, A PuG would have absolutely no reason to take some professions AT ALL because others are better. But that's not how most PuGs work, nor is it how I or many of us want PuGs to work.

Yea, by 1%. And before super-buff to Rt spirits recently, Ranger spirit spammer was better. And so what?

E/Mo is better than prot monk, and so what? Do you see PuGs refusing to take prot monks and instead GLF for E/Mos? No.

You mean in this thread?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=70

That post is good example of what I'm talking about. Theory only goes so far. You can say someone is a 'pale shadow of a rit', but practice is something totally different.

As far as damage, a Rit primary has about a 10% damage advantage:

(Rit= 12 Channeling/9+1 Communing)

(Ele= 12 Channeling/12 Communing)

Spawning power adds some needed durability to spirits when there is AoE damage (or in certain areas where spirits need to tank/stall).

Splinter weapon and GDW widen the gap.

MasterSasori · Jan 22, 2010, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

(a warder with Blurred Vision does more for defense than an imbagon does). Those are just examples.

Oh yeah I also forgot to mention what makes you think that a warder with blurred vision could do more fore defense than an imbagon? Are you suggesting that taking a Ele with blurred vision and wards would be a better idea in HM than an imbagon?

The Josip · Jan 22, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Splinter weapon and GDW widen the gap.

As I said, I'm discussing the realities of a PuG team and some are discussing how it would be if two top GvG teams went in PvE and did the mission. When you see PuG spirit spammer with splinter, let me know. I've been in many ZB and ZM PuG teams and the number of those who used splinter was exactly zero.

Also, you're supporting what I said. If primary Rt took Splinter + GDW + Siphon + Painful Bond + possibly rez, that's 4-5 skills right there, which means he will only take 3-4 spirits. Plenty of room for X/Rt to bring his own spirits. And that's what we're debating about: E/Rt vs E/x.

Quote:

As far as damage, a Rit primary has about a 10% damage advantage:

Sure it has, let's look at it:

Minor runes (which almost everyone uses in HM) give +8 more damage to the Ritualist, every 2 seconds or so (looking at wiki). In other words

Rt damage: 315
E/Rt damage: 307

Try to place the spirits on Isle of Nameless so they don't hit adjacent bags but only master. But really, this is pure math here now: 315 vs 307, using the spirits you took. While I'm always searching for optimal results, I would like +8 damage, or even +1 damage, but this is not the debate of what is ideal - we're talking about PuG teams where you're lucky if no one quits by the end of the mission, and core debate is about E/Rt vs E/x, not Rt vs E/Rt.

Quote:

Spawning power adds some needed durability to spirits when there is AoE damage (or in certain areas where spirits need to tank/stall).

We've been through all that in the other thread. Yes.. it adds this and that, which in 99% cases is irrelevant. With 12 Channeling and 12 Communing (plus runes) your Spawning will be at... 3. In a PuG team *I don't want* spirits to tank anything, because to me it's a sign of bad spirit placement. Yes, spirits help sometimes in case of a wipe so some party members can retreat, but in that case I'd prefer you put Flesh of my Flesh or Death Pact on your skillbar. It would help more in PuG team, especially because most don't understand what strategic retreat is.

Arrogant Bastard · Jan 22, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

As I said, I'm discussing the realities of a PuG team and some are discussing how it would be if two top GvG teams went in PvE and did the mission. When you see PuG spirit spammer with splinter, let me know. I've been in many ZB and ZM PuG teams and the number of those who used splinter was exactly zero.

Sure it has, let's look at it:

Minor runes (which almost everyone uses in HM) give +8 more damage to the Ritualist, every 2 seconds or so (looking at wiki). In other words

Rt damage: 315
E/Rt damage: 307

Try to place the spirits on Isle of Nameless so they don't hit adjacent bags but only master. But really, this is pure math here now: 315 vs 307, using the spirits you took. While I'm always searching for optimal results, I would like +8 damage, or even +1 damage, but this is not the debate of what is ideal - we're talking about PuG teams where you're lucky if no one quits by the end of the mission, and core debate is about E/Rt vs E/x, not Rt vs E/Rt.

If you want to talk numbers:

Rit (12+4 Channeling/9+1 Communing):
34 (x3) SoS
26 Bloodsong
22 Pain
15 (x2 v. hexed) Anguish
21 (x6 spirits) Painful bond
= 306 damage

x/Rit (12 Channeling/12 Communing):
27 (x3) SoS
21 Bloodsong
25 Pain
17 (x2 v. hexed) Anguish
18 (x6 spirits) Painful Bond
= 269 damage

I see no reason not to use a superior rune in pve for casters.

Quote:

Also, you're supporting what I said. If primary Rt took Splinter + GDW + Siphon + Painful Bond + possibly rez, that's 4-5 skills right there, which means he will only take 3-4 spirits. Plenty of room for X/Rt to bring his own spirits. And that's what we're debating about: E/Rt vs E/x.

A Rit who takes Splinter and/or GDW will be many times more effective than a x/Rit who does not (given that the team can use thes eskills). Otherwise, the Rit will still do more damage.

Quote:

We've been through all that in the other thread. Yes.. it adds this and that, which in 99% cases is irrelevant. With 12 Channeling and 12 Communing (plus runes) your Spawning will be at... 3. In a PuG team *I don't want* spirits to tank anything, because to me it's a sign of bad spirit placement. Yes, spirits help sometimes in case of a wipe so some party members can retreat, but in that case I'd prefer you put Flesh of my Flesh or Death Pact on your skillbar. It would help more in PuG team, especially because most don't understand what strategic retreat is

The setup I posted was 9 Communing, so you are able to spec 8 into spawning.

We did go over this in another thread:

Quote:

16 channeling gives you:

+26 armor ignoring damage per hit (SoS + Bloodsong combined)
+2 damage per hit on painful bond
+195 hp on each spirit with 13 spawning power (+60 with 0 Spawning; +154 with 9 Spawning)
+12 damage and +1 attack on splinter weapon (+7 duration with 9 Spawning; +10 duration with 13 Spawning; Same for GDW)
+28 damage Ancestor's Rage

The damage and durability of spirits on a Rit primary has a significant advantage over other classes. Splinter/GDW and Ancestor's Rage are bonuses. (The damage advantage a Rit primary has is all armor ignoring except for Ancestor's Rage which is only useful in certain teams).

The Josip · Jan 22, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

I see no reason not to use a superior rune in pve for casters.

I find that rather ironic. When someone asks on this forum whether he should use sup or minor runes, the overwhelming support goes to minor runes. But when x/y needs to compare to y/x, then it's sup rune for the sake of the argument. Yes, Rt/x can also take sup communing and sup spawning. Would get even better results.

I don't disagree with you though, I prefer using sup runes and mostly use them myself (in general).

Quote:

A Rit who takes Splinter and/or GDW will be many times more effective than a x/Rit who does not

As I said, PuGs dont use Splinter, so it's totally irrelevant in this discussion. But you obviously just want to water it down. If you want to discuss about best Rt builds there's Rt subforum or pvxwiki, here we're talking about why E/Rt instead of earth ele or whatever, and what's the difference between pug E/Rt and pug Rt/x. PuG, the key word here.

We can compare all day long theoretical builds and character equipment, but as a pug group leader you can choose between PuG #1 and PuG #2, not between forum debate build #1 and forum debate build #2.

Here's how reality looks like: random PuG in my PvE team right now. Major channeling, no communing at all, minor spawning I think. No Splinter, no Ancestors, Radiant insignia. That's the usual Rt primary you will find among PuGs.

------

To get back ontopic

Rt (your equipment set)
SoS
Vampirism
Bloodsong
Agony
Painful bond
Siphon
Summon
Rez/something

E/Rt:
Ghostly Might
Pain
Shadowsong
Disenchantment
Anguish
Siphon
Summon
Rez/something

So, with 2 spirit spammer like this, The E/Rt will do something like 283dmg in 2 seconds if I calculated correctly, or 141 dps. Without SoS.

Even primary Rt with that build would do marginally better because PBond is on the other guy.

As I said, I'd take 141dps plus all else on that build, vs any other dmg ele build such as that earth one, or some fire one etc. And PuG can either decide not to take eles at all and just take rits, or not to discriminate classes and take ele and best build ele can take.

maxxfury · Jan 22, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Well when the numbers are crunched, the rit primary will obviously come out on top (screen shots and calculation in this thread show this) meaning that the rit is indeed the best spirit spammer, no doubt about that.

Can an elem decently emulate a spirit spammer? yeah. but it doesnt gain the advantages the rit does via runes, more damage, godly splinter, longer gdws, and more durable spirits.

You just cant be so one track about what bars you run and play to the team strengths..dont be selfish for you own needs.

No doubt ANY /rt can do the job of spirit spammer adequately, but the problem arises when you have multiple rits and your trying to take that job from them, when they do it simply better.. benefitting the team.

IF their are rits to do the job, let them do it, as they are better at it. . benefitting the team more. If there is non, let a /rit do it.
There are only so many spirits to share at the end of the day, and the primary rits should ideally get them before out sourcing to 2ndry rits.

Its just common sense :/

as 'The Josip' just posted, have them split the spirits between them selves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

To get back ontopic

Rt (your equipment set)
SoS
Vampirism
Bloodsong
Agony
Painful bond
Siphon
Summon
Rez/something

E/Rt:
Ghostly Might
Pain
Shadowsong
Disenchantment
Anguish
Siphon
Summon
Rez/something

As I said, I'd take 141dps plus all else on that build, vs any other dmg ele build such as that earth one, or some fire one etc. And PuG can either decide not to take eles at all and just take rits, or not to discriminate classes and take ele and best build ele can take.

Still missing Splinter weapon....and good luck gettin a pug to do this

and to be a pita, a rit running the second bar would still do a better job if there was 2 rits in the team.

BUT is a pug ffs! pugs generally suck and are unwilling to do stuff like this..
hell if they are too inflexible to take a splinter weapon when u ask them too you cant expect them to want to share their spirits lol...when they can happily just take 7 spirits them self! and be the usual selfish uneducated blissfully ignorant pug player.

splitting the skills between 2 players for the benefit of the team is just basic team synergy, but then thats another thing pugs generally dont do

pugs are normally an 8 player byob, and pay no attention to the rest.

Daesu · Jan 22, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

So, with 2 spirit spammer like this, The E/Rt will do something like 283dmg in 2 seconds if I calculated correctly, or 141 dps. Without SoS.

Even primary Rt with that build would do marginally better because PBond is on the other guy.

As I said, I'd take 141dps plus all else on that build, vs any other dmg ele build such as that earth one, or some fire one etc. And PuG can either decide not to take eles at all and just take rits, or not to discriminate classes and take ele and best build ele can take.

I dont see why you are trying so hard to recommend a E/Rt spirit spammer. Even if a primary Rt is only marginally better, which many people doubt if you consider both defensive+offensive advantages from runes and spawning power, a primary Rit is still BETTER at the job of spirit spamming than a E/Rt!

Considering the fact that primary rits are usually quite plentiful, it doesn't matter if E/Rt can use SoGM to synergize with another primary rit, because another SoGM primary rit would still be a better substitute than a SoGM E/Rt.

Lastly, I never have a problem finding a PUG as an ele using ele skills on my bar so there is no need for me to compete with primary rits for the role of spirit spamming. Why? Because my earth Ele has enough valuable defensive skills (KD from Churning Earth + Blind from Eruption + blocking from WAM) and being successful in HM PvE is not just about who has the higher damage number. Also my Ele can exploit PvE skills better than most spirit spammer skill bars do, anyway.

The Josip · Jan 22, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

pugs generally suck and are unwilling to do stuff like this..

OK, since youre unwilling to be ontopic im going to ignore your post and move on. The thread is about pugs, not about what team you would build when top gvg team decided to do some pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

Even if a primary Rt is only marginally better, which many people doubt

People doubt EMo is good which is why they dont like them. For comparison, everyone and his pet is spirit spamming.

Quote:

a primary Rit is still BETTER at the job of spirit spamming than a E/Rt!

Who are you talking to?

Youre claiming things no one is even disputing.

Quote:

Lastly, I never have a problem finding a PUG as an ele using ele skills on my bar

Thats because pugs are bad and think youre a nuker. They have no idea how little damage you do in HM. They see ele and think uuuh dmg. Never mind that my mesmer does 3x more damage plus AoE permanent daze and other stuff.

Quote:

Because my earth Ele has enough valuable defensive skills and being successful in HM PvE is not just about who has the higher damage number.

Youre talking to a guy whose primary class is mesmer.

Your earth ele is average build that is 2x worse overall than ERt. Thats the point of this thread. I dont take eles and warriors in my pug groups at all, because they portray whats wrong with pugs. Youre a good example, you think your build is cool while earth hechman does more or less the same job. If pugs knew how bad they are they could be helped. The problem is that just like you they are satisfied with their mediocre builds and think they are cool.

Id take earth henchman over earth ele any day. Henchman is more reliable, listens, and doesnt think his build is imbagon in disguise.

I think we can finally conclude this discussion.

Daesu · Jan 22, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Your earth ele is average build that is 2x worse overall than ERt. Thats the point of this thread. I dont take eles and warriors in my pug groups at all, because they portray whats wrong with pugs. Youre a good example, you think your build is cool while earth hechman does more or less the same job. If pugs knew how bad they are they could be helped. The problem is that just like you they are satisfied with their mediocre builds and think they are cool.

That is because you never take into account armor ignoring damage from the uber PvE skills which your ERt spirit spamming bar has neglected. How much damage do you think your spirits can inflict, versus my single Pain Inverter in the right settings?

I seriously doubt your posted "spirit-spammer-wannabe" ERt build generates more damage than my EA AP build in many HM situations. Not to mention the other utilities my EA build provides.

Quote:

Id take earth henchman over earth ele any day. Henchman is more reliable, listens, and doesnt think his build is imbagon in disguise.

I think we can finally conclude this discussion.

Comparing the earth henchy to a good human earth ele is just silly. I dont think I need to go into why.

HigherMinion · Jan 22, 2010, 06:53 PM // 18:53

It's very easy to create a good PUG team. In places like the day's or previous day's ZBounty/Mission outpost.

1.You have a Party Search tool. If you are the leader, keep this open.
2.Add all the professions you want and ask them to ping.
3. If they do not synergise with your original team build plan- Ask them to change some skills, perhaps even the whole build. Some people will cry and ragequit the party, but then you can look for something else.
4. When you're happy with everyone's build you can enjoy a relaxing mission with good `player-builds.
5. If the players are rather bad at executing their builds; do not hesitate to give tips, draw on the compass and ping regularly. This will help them to get a better grasp of the game. Tell them who is calling, then tell them to mash "T-space".
6. If the PUGs were good enough, you should add them to your friends list, because no doubt they will want to play with you again on the following zQuests, and make party-searching less of a hastle.

This has worked for me for a long time.

Arrogant Bastard · Jan 22, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

The Josip-

You are the one who keeps insisting that a non-Rit primary can use a spirit spam build just as good as a Rit primary. This assumption is incorrect as the damage difference from the spirits alone should be around 10% (contrary to your estimate of 1%).

As far as Splinter/GDW, while most PUG's won't have them on their bars, it is not hard to ask them to make a small change.

Bobby2 · Jan 22, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

As far as Splinter/GDW, while most PUG's won't have them on their bars, it is not hard to ask them to make a small change.

This (FGJ!).

My average is 2 lines of explanation needed per skill. In my experience, players with bars that make sense to begin with are often quite open to suggestions, if delivered well.

The Josip · Jan 22, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That is because you never take into account armor ignoring damage from the uber PvE skills which your ERt spirit spamming bar has neglected. How much damage do you think your spirits can inflict, versus my single Pain Inverter in the right settings?

I saw spirit spammers who use EVAS and some use PI. If you want to show E/x build that works better, sure, go ahead, post it. All 8 skills. Then we can check it out.

Quote:

Comparing the earth henchy to a good human earth ele is just silly. I dont think I need to go into why.

I'm afraid you do. The build is almost exactly the same as that of Earth henchman (the one posted on second page). You can argue that human would use the build more effectively, and I'll argue that henchman won't disconnect, rage quit, leech/go afk, aggro mob and get everyone killed, act like an idiot. And, considering that we already showed how damage of such build is crap, I can tell you henchman will cast Ward normally, and I'm pretty sure he will target someone with other spells.

I'm sorry, but Earth Henchman is overall better than PuG earth ele. I also have proof of that: the success rate of people who used henchmen in Prophecies (before Heroes) vs success of PuGs. A good player who went with PuG team failed far more often than good player who took henchmen.

End of proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It's very easy to create a good PUG team. In places like the day's or previous day's ZBounty/Mission outpost.

I agree with what you said. But thing is, when I PuG (and not just me), I like giving more freedom to people in the team. By this I mean that I will accept builds which are OK but by no means "best". Simply put, I want people to play with skills they like using (unless of course they dont care either way) - even if those skills are slightly less useful. I dont mind suggestions of course.
Another thing is that it takes a while to get PuG team going, so I prefer to keep it simple and not go through everyones builds unless really needed. Some people i'll check, but for instance if I see a ranger I'll just let him be.

See, the main reason why PuGs fail are rarely skillbars. Mostly, it's lack of responsibility (quitting without reason etc), lack of coordination (overaggroing), not knowing how to use builds properly, and various idiotic behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

You are the one who keeps insisting that a non-Rit primary can use a spirit spam build just as good as a Rit primary. This assumption is incorrect

No I don't. I said it like 10x that Rt primary is better but difference in practice is insignificant because spirit spamming is so overpowered you're supposed to plow through mobs either way.

And 10% damage difference is only if you use sup rune which also means, -75hp in HM. So it's more damage for less life, as simple as that. Also, that 10% is in ideal case. In practice, damage difference is lower *between 2 PuGs*.

Quote:

As far as Splinter/GDW, while most PUG's won't have them on their bars, it is not hard to ask them to make a small change.

It's not hard, but:

1) it takes time
2) if I wanted people in my PuG team to always use the same build, I'd go with heroes. I like variety, I like creativity. Yes, often at the expense of efficiency.
3) I may be in all-caster team, since I generally prefer those and in practice they tend to be more efficient and faster. I have healthy prejudice against warriors and assassins, while I'm ok with dervishes.

---

Now, back to the point. Why would I accept Elementalist PuG if he isn't E/Rt or E/Mo? Will someone finally post 8 skills that do more damage than E/Rt can? In HM. Or will it be again "but you're not Rt..". You're stuck at Ele primary, you can either use spirit spam or use something else that gives you 33% of spirit spam firepower.

HigherMinion · Jan 22, 2010, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

It's not hard, but:

1) it takes time
2) if I wanted people in my PuG team to always use the same build, I'd go with heroes. I like variety, I like creativity. Yes, often at the expense of efficiency.
3) I may be in all-caster team, since I generally prefer those and in practice they tend to be more efficient and faster. I have healthy prejudice against warriors and assassins, while I'm ok with dervishes.

.

I have sometimes been in an outpost for over an hour building a good party. Time isn't an issue for me, and I like to play with open-minded players, especially as I ER in pugs and there is no room for tanks and self-heals.

I like assassins, when they run DPS builds, and quick-attack skills. Warriors are good also, churning out SY and taking advantage of GDW and sometimes SoH or MoP (Which are rather common in my teams)

I don't understand your prejudice. Explain.

Also- if someone is not performing well with a build you rate highly, explain to them what they should be doing. It doesn't matter how many hitpoints you take off their Ego.

MasterSasori · Jan 22, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It's very easy to create a good PUG team. In places like the day's or previous day's ZBounty/Mission outpost.

1.You have a Party Search tool. If you are the leader, keep this open.
2.Add all the professions you want and ask them to ping.
3. If they do not synergise with your original team build plan- Ask them to change some skills, perhaps even the whole build. Some people will cry and ragequit the party, but then you can look for something else.
4. When you're happy with everyone's build you can enjoy a relaxing mission with good `player-builds.
5. If the players are rather bad at executing their builds; do not hesitate to give tips, draw on the compass and ping regularly. This will help them to get a better grasp of the game. Tell them who is calling, then tell them to mash "T-space".
6. If the PUGs were good enough, you should add them to your friends list, because no doubt they will want to play with you again on the following zQuests, and make party-searching less of a hastle.

This has worked for me for a long time.

This. Pugging shouldn't be a nightmare. A few precautions and a little planning goes a long way if you know what you're doing and what you're getting yourself into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Now, back to the point. Why would I accept Elementalist PuG if he isn't E/Rt or E/Mo? Will someone finally post 8 skills that do more damage than E/Rt can? In HM. Or will it be again "but you're not Rt..". You're stuck at Ele primary, you can either use spirit spam or use something else that gives you 33% of spirit spam firepower.

You would accept it because not everything in PvE is Slaver's Exile and it would be nice for once to have some damn fun. So what if E/whocares is not as fast as SoS E/Rt if you're having fun? Would you honestly take a E/Rt over a E/X if the E/X is more fun to pug with?

Besides as you said very accurately, the major problem with pugs is not the build. It's the idiocy/ignorance that makes people rage.

syphonus · Jan 22, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I don't understand your prejudice. Explain.

He says that he takes PuGs as they are and assumes things about certain professions that tend to have especially bad players.

Daesu · Jan 23, 2010, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I saw spirit spammers who use EVAS and some use PI. If you want to show E/x build that works better, sure, go ahead, post it. All 8 skills. Then we can check it out.

Nope your ERt build (from Page 3) doesn't use EVAS or PI.

E/Rt:
Ghostly Might
Pain
Shadowsong
Disenchantment
Anguish
Siphon
Summon
Rez/something

Quote:

I'm afraid you do. The build is almost exactly the same as that of Earth henchman (the one posted on second page).

You would be stupid to use the exact same build as the Earth henchman. For one, a human player can use PvE skills that heroes and henchman can't.

Quote:

You can argue that human would use the build more effectively, and I'll argue that henchman won't disconnect, rage quit, leech/go afk, aggro mob and get everyone killed, act like an idiot. And, considering that we already showed how damage of such build is crap, I can tell you henchman will cast Ward normally, and I'm pretty sure he will target someone with other spells.

That is because you have not met a good human pug player. I usually dont disconnect, and I dont rage quit, leech/go afk, aggro mob and get everyone killed, etc. and I pug.

maxxfury · Jan 23, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

TL;DR

X/rit outputs a good amount of damage easily spamming spirits with SoS, if there is room for it in the team (eg, there isnt already a rit doin it with the same skills) then you could do worse, even tho its not as good as a rit/x doin the same job...

conclusion, spirit spamming is OP...for the output you get for the risk reward factor.