Curse

Sahar · Nov 10, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Hello everyone, i've saw a very nice team build on guildwiki, me and my friend use it all the time..this is the build: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_2_Man_Discordway
but the problem is that my friend doesn't have the EOTN campaing, we he dont have a 3rd necro, instead of the N/Mo discord partyhealer we took a Mo/N with similar skills.
i want to ask if any1 got a nice good build to advise us instead of that N/Mo build that is going to work well with this team..thanks in advance

Kumu Honua · Nov 10, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Use a Rt/N minion bomber with explosive growth in place of the Necro bomber.

Sahar · Nov 10, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

ill make things more clear acutally, my Account has all the campaings and the heroes i use are the N/Mo protter, N/Rt curses discord and N/Rt splinter bomber...i preffer not to touch these and taking more minion masters would be totaly useless seeing there are too many already...
for the other 2 N/Rt Life and recovery Restorers are fine aswell
i just need a last hero, doesnt matter what proffesion, just that will have Discord and 7 more skils that will be usefull with that team build (also those skills mustn't be from the EOTN campaing...)

own age myname · Nov 10, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Use a Rt/N minion bomber with explosive growth in place of the Necro bomber.

^Agreed

I use Rt/N one my characters who dont have Livia.

Sahar · Nov 10, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

so u wanna tell me u got 3 minion masters in ur party?
putting Rt/N instead of the minion master i got now wouldn't solve my problem

remmember i need something instead of the N/Mo Discord Partyhealer

upier · Nov 10, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Use a Rt/N minion bomber with explosive growth in place of the Necro bomber.

That's a complete waste because you are investing into Spawning and Death.

If you do not have 3 necros - then take Razzy and set him up as a Channeling/Resto hybrid with SoS, Splinter and SS for e-managemnet and the normal Resto heals.

Whereas for the other necros - set them up as monk secondary with 9 or 10 in Protection - with Aegis and PS (and SoA on the guy that has 10 in prot) and that will give you the added safety you need. There is no use for crappy things like Fiends, Shamblings or Rotting Flesh.

And shove the rez on the non-healers.
Ohh and SolS can be dumped.

Kattar · Nov 10, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Moved to where this should have been in the first place.

Kumu Honua · Nov 10, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's a complete waste because you are investing into Spawning and Death.

If you do not have 3 necros - then take Razzy and set him up as a Channeling/Resto hybrid with SoS, Splinter and SS for e-managemnet and the normal Resto heals.

Whereas for the other necros - set them up as monk secondary with 9 or 10 in Protection - with Aegis and PS (and SoA on the guy that has 10 in prot) and that will give you the added safety you need. There is no use for crappy things like Fiends, Shamblings or Rotting Flesh.

And shove the rez on the non-healers.
Ohh and SolS can be dumped.

12 spawn, 12 death, 3 restoration.

Discord, Explosive growth, Spirits gift, Animate Bone Minions, Death Nova, Animate shambling horror, Flesh of my flesh, and if you have issues with energy management then toss boon of creation on there or use whatever else you want.

Every time it casts animate minions, 112 lightning damage to 5 targets at corpse, 82 health and 2 conditions removed, 82 self heal and 10 energy. (If you use all 3 buffs.) + 85 damage and poison for any minions that blow up due to death/going over minion count. Not to mention the 94 point discords.

I don't like the "Splinter bomber" build at any rate. The bomber is too focused on casting splinter/ancestors when it would be better off blowing up more minions.

Far better to move splinter/ancestors to a separate necro.

Quote:

so u wanna tell me u got 3 minion masters in ur party?
putting Rt/N instead of the minion master i got now wouldn't solve my problem
remmember i need something instead of the N/Mo Discord Partyhealer

No. Read it again. Replace the necro that is currently in the "Splinterbomber" position with the ritualist version. Now you have that necro to use as the "Partyhealer" version that you need.

upier · Nov 10, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

12 spawn, 12 death, 3 restoration.

Discord, Explosive growth, Spirits gift, Animate Bone Minions, Death Nova, Animate shambling horror, Flesh of my flesh, and if you have issues with energy management then toss boon of creation on there or use whatever else you want.

Every time it casts animate minions, 112 lightning damage to 5 targets at corpse, 82 health and 2 conditions removed, 82 self heal and 10 energy. (If you use all 3 buffs.) + 85 damage and poison for any minions that blow up due to death/going over minion count. Not to mention the 94 point discords.

This is strictly inferior to a necro bomber.
And the reason why running this doesn't make sense is because you end up shifting something that a necro would excel at to a ritualist, whereas you are shifting something that a ritualist would excel at to the necro.

Kumu Honua · Nov 10, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Inferior?

Necro creates 2 minions - 2 minions now exist.

Rit creates 2 minions - 2 minions now exist, 112 damage to 5 targets near the corpse, Rit gains 82 health and 10 energy, allies near that corpse also gain 82 health and lose 2 conditions.

Necro has minion explode - 105 damage and poison and gains energy equal to reaping.

Rit has a minion explode - 85 damage and poison.

They seem pretty damn equivalent if not in favor of the rit.

upier · Nov 10, 2009, 05:08 PM // 17:08

The problem is that the spawning enches aren't good.
You want the healing you get from Spirit's Gift?
Dwayna's Sorrow is better.
You want condition removal?
Foul Feast is better.
Non targeted, non-armour ignoring damage also can't make up for the fact that you could be running a monk secondary and achieving Aegis chains, and spam PS.

That's the problem of a spawning bomber.
Death and Spawning COMBINED do not have enough good skills to fill a skillbar.
Whereas a necro bomber can look into a secondary, enabling him to fill the void created by the crappy selection of Death skills.

Kumu Honua · Nov 10, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that the spawning enches aren't good.
You want the healing you get from Spirit's Gift?
Dwayna's Sorrow is better.
You want condition removal?
Foul Feast is better.
Non targeted, non-armour ignoring damage also can't make up for the fact that you could be running a monk secondary and achieving Aegis chains, and spam PS.

The bomber should be doing nothing more than making minions, blowing them up and discording. That's it's job in this team. Cycle the corpses into explosions to move on.

Dwayna's sorrow? Should not be on the bomber. Foul feast? Should not be on the bomber. Aegis? Should not be on the bomber.

The bomber should be casting Animate Bone Minions, Death Nova, and Discord. Really, anything else is stopping this build from doing what it is meant to do.

Explosive, Boon, and Gift can all be precast before combat/corpses to use.

Gift (That you point out specifically) is actually the least useful of the buffs. Fine throw it out. Not necessary. Fill with what you want. Might I suggest empowerment (+39 max health and +10 energy to all the pwk heroes, as well as +41 heal to the rit for 0 energy and a 3/4 cast time? As well as helping to fulfill the "No sac when spirit in range" of the healers.)

Eragon Zarroc · Nov 10, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sahar

so u wanna tell me u got 3 minion masters in ur party?
putting Rt/N instead of the minion master i got now wouldn't solve my problem

remmember i need something instead of the N/Mo Discord Partyhealer

no no no, lol. not 3 MM's. have ur partner switch his mm to the N/MO discord partyhealer, and then bring a rit as an MM to replace the necro that he just switched to healing. So u have ur same necros. Your partner has rt/n MM, discord necro, and N/MO discord healer.

subarucar · Nov 10, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

The bomber should be doing nothing more than making minions, blowing them up and discording. That's it's job in this team. Cycle the corpses into explosions to move on.

Dwayna's sorrow? Should not be on the bomber. Foul feast? Should not be on the bomber. Aegis? Should not be on the bomber.

The bomber should be casting Animate Bone Minions, Death Nova, and Discord. Really, anything else is stopping this build from doing what it is meant to do.

Explosive, Boon, and Gift can all be precast before combat/corpses to use.

Gift (That you point out specifically) is actually the least useful of the buffs. Fine throw it out. Not necessary. Fill with what you want. Might I suggest empowerment (+39 max health and +10 energy to all the pwk heroes, as well as +41 heal to the rit for 0 energy and a 3/4 cast time? As well as helping to fulfill the "No sac when spirit in range" of the healers.)

The MM has more than enough time to throw up an Aegis every thirty seconds, and would only need a couple of Dwaynas Sorrows to result is big party healing when the minions go boom. I agree FF is meh, heroes do not use it so well, the rpots they can take provide geat party defence.
Also remember that the damage from explosive growth will not always be there, enemies will not always be huddled around a corpse.

Kumu Honua · Nov 11, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by subarucar

The MM has more than enough time to throw up an Aegis every thirty seconds, and would only need a couple of Dwaynas Sorrows to result is big party healing when the minions go boom. I agree FF is meh, heroes do not use it so well, the rpots they can take provide geat party defence.
Also remember that the damage from explosive growth will not always be there, enemies will not always be huddled around a corpse.

I'm not saying not to use Aegis or Dwaynas. Just that the bomber should not be doing it. The healer necro should have Dwaynas. The prot and players should bring aegis to cause the chain (Especially since heroes do not chain like players can.)

Same reason that I really dislike putrid bile, ancestors rage, and splinter weapon being on my bombers. Their attention gets pulled in too many directions.

They split their time up between casting bile, rage, or splinter when their time is much better spent doing what they are supposed to do. Creating and blowing up minions.

Of course the damage from explosive may not hit other targets. Same with death nova damage. Minion may die running between a target that just died and one further away causing no damage. Doesn't mean that we should stop pusing death nova because it's possible to deal no damage with it. We use it because much of the time it does have an effect.

Many many times enemies are near corpses. Especially if you have a good puller/baller.

subarucar · Nov 11, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

I'm not saying not to use Aegis or Dwaynas. Just that the bomber should not be doing it. The healer necro should have Dwaynas. The prot and players should bring aegis to cause the chain (Especially since heroes do not chain like players can.)

Of course the damage from explosive may not hit other targets. Same with death nova damage. Minion may die running between a target that just died and one further away causing no damage. Doesn't mean that we should stop pusing death nova because it's possible to deal no damage with it. We use it because much of the time it does have an effect.

@ point 1: My mistake, I forgot this was about the 6man discordway. In the case of 3 man I find it advantageous to have an extra source of prots and party heals.

@Point 2: My point was simply that if you were trying to calculate the damage you must be carefull not to include it at its maximum output. Death Nova's damage is irrelevant as it applies to both builds.

upier · Nov 11, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by subarucar

I agree FF is meh, heroes do not use it so well, the rpots they can take provide geat party defence.

The linked build seems pretty universal - meaning a caster or a physical could run it. There is no need for a AP+YMLD caller.
And based on this - this build should be as universal as possible without the need to modify it much.
And if this will be run by two physicals - I would rather waste the SolS-slots on additional condition removal. If on the other hand it will be ran by two casters - then FF will be as much of a wasted slot as SolS is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Many many times enemies are near corpses. Especially if you have a good puller/baller.

If you have a good puller/baller - you aren't running this build.
Not only is it slow - but anything with minions trashes the point of a baller.

Sahar · Nov 11, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Thank u all for ur suggestions

Kumu honua's Rt/N build idea looks great

we going to try that out and see how it works

Dzjudz · Nov 12, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I'd suggest to add an SoS spirit spammer hero with splinter weapon and such (you can hit 14 channeling for splinter breakpoint). Then you can change the N/Rt with splinter weapon you already have to something else (N/P for fall back etc?).

Sahar · Nov 12, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

nah i think the team is fine now

also i dont understand what splinter weapon helps this team with can some1 explain me? no1 in this team acutally needs it unless it can be used on the minions...