Curse

shaygo · Dec 09, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

You call those people lazy? What for? Because they don't fit into your frame of 'this is how GW should be played' ?

If I recall correctly, I never called anyone lazy. I just asked for other people's opinion and many of them thought that laziness was a major factor in getting runs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Insulting people and calling them bad players, simply to justify your own personal outlook on how things should be done, is elitism at it's worst. If it comes to that, well, I started gaming in 1979, and picked up my first rpg not long after. By my reckoning, weight of years and experience would have me dictate terms on how things should be done. Unless of course, someone who's been gaming longer than I have would rather tell you.

Pure and simple. Enjoy the game the way you like to, and pay no heed to people who want to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

As long as you aren't hacking, it's all good. Enjoy your game.

again, I was not insulting anyone. and It's fine with me that others play and enjoy from different aspects of the game than me. and since I started playing D&D only in 1984 and not before, I guess you have an advantage over me

Arduin · Dec 09, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaygo

If I recall correctly, I never called anyone lazy. I just asked for other people's opinion and many of them thought that laziness was a major factor in getting runs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaygo

I tell you, most of the dungeons and all of the missions can be H/Hed. and a good team of players can do all of them. but we are lazy and impatient and want our titles maxed...

Just felt a negative vibe in your post. People have various reasons to play online games, pigeonholing them is not a good way of 'sharing the love'. And GW needs some love nowadays.

qvtkc · Dec 09, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

Not quite. You statement would be true if dungeons were not tied to skill (or Zaishen to the coins required for the heavy pack)

Because the effectiveness of EotN skills are tied to rep level, in order to get a high rep you have limited options. Dungeons are one of the better ways to max dwarven so you need to go through dungeons again and again on each individual character both for the dwarven points in the dungeons themselves and to get that hm book filled to turn it in. I've already done all the dungeons myself on one character. I don't want to endure them repeatedly on each character just to get r10 dwarven per toon.

So yes, you are bypassing content in order to get something after that - the skills you wish to use elsewhere.

That's still not ok. You bypass early areas because those are learning areas and you already know the game. Therefore early areas fill no purpose and you could as well skip past them. But the dungeons are supposed to be grind, so you should grind them if you want that r10.

You might ask what purpose your grind would fill. The thing is, you'd be in my PUG, so from my point of view, you'd have a purpose.

ChaosWarrior · Dec 09, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Well I use people who are running sometimes. Sometimes for missions and sometimes to get me to an outpost... like when my necro needed ss somebody ran me from beacon to droks. another thing when i need runs are the gate of ... mission. There's always that one get that takes alot of time to pass and when you get a run from somebody who has a build specific for defeating that boss/beating that mission. I completed all the campaigns alrdy, and I done most of the things myself. A run doesn't spoil fun in my opinion... it just makes some things easier. You can always redo it later.

UnChosen · Dec 09, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

That's still not ok. You bypass early areas because those are learning areas and you already know the game. Therefore early areas fill no purpose and you could as well skip past them. But the dungeons are supposed to be grind, so you should grind them if you want that r10.

You might ask what purpose your grind would fill. The thing is, you'd be in my PUG, so from my point of view, you'd have a purpose.

If I'm going to grind for those titles, I'd rather do it in the Secret Lair of the Snowmen using H/h team. Anything and everything is better than 2 hrs pug for 2 onyx/diamonds....

HigherMinion · Dec 10, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

I've done every dungeon 10+ times, but they're still fun; especially when a dungeon is the day's zaishen bounty. Playing with pugs is fun and it's not a grind.

People get runs because they're lazy/can't h/h it.

shoyon456 · Dec 10, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

People get runs because they will always look for the easiest way to get something done.

Personally, I get runs because playing the same non-challenging starter level crap over and over to make a new character is NOT FUN. Of course, playing the same extremely hard level content over and over isn't fun either. So I guess it comes down to mindless repetition is NOT FUN.

EDIT: I don't pug unless its something where you can't H/H like doa/uw/fow. My H/H team> over half the playerbase.

kanuks · Dec 10, 2009, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

... but I have paid for runs. My inclination is to PLAY the game rather than pay someone to PLAY for me. With that said, I have PAID for runs when I CAN'T find a team. Like all aspects of HM PvE, if you're not in the right guild or have the right friends list, then you're stuck in PUG world or H/H. So be it!

Some HM dungeons can be easily H/H but others simply can't be H/H without a few POC (or other team DP removers), &/or cons, and ALOT of time (up to 1hr per level). Sure U can load up your hero slots with discorders but U still have 4 other slots with Henchies that don't perfectly compliment your "team" build.

I submit that to purchase the materials to make the team dp removers &/or cons, the net in-game cost is as much or MORE than a run.

So, if UR just a warrior & wanna do one of those really tuff HM dungeons (thinkin SoO, Vloxen, Duncan, Frostmaw for example) & can't find a PUG & aren't in the right guild, then runners are your ONLY option. Boo Hiss

But all the dungeons are doable with a warrior and H/H in hm, without cons. Except maybe Forgewight. Peoples are just lazy to experiment.

UnChosen · Dec 10, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

But all the dungeons are doable with a warrior and H/H in hm, without cons. Except maybe Forgewight. Peoples are just lazy to experiment.

Like he said...it take ALOT of time even with cons, it'll take longer without them. And for all the effort it takes all it gives are two gems, or worse, a crappy gold item and a gem. After the first few time, there's no more reason to actually grind through those dungeons for nothing. Its not lazy, its smart...Run + Farm >>> Normal run + grind.

Nerel · Dec 10, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

But all the dungeons are doable with a warrior and H/H in hm, without cons. Except maybe Forgewight. Peoples are just lazy to experiment.

Even Forgewright is doable with a warrior and H&H, no consets, in HM... (DP removal wouldn't hurt though).

ChaosWarrior · Dec 10, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

are all dungeons doable with a warrior?

Nerel · Dec 10, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Why wouldn't they be?

Arduin · Dec 10, 2009, 12:22 PM // 12:22

All dungeons are doable with any profession. Even if you bring zero skills on your skillbar, the other 7 players/heroes/henchmen in your team are able to get you through.

shaygo · Dec 10, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Just felt a negative vibe in your post. People have various reasons to play online games, pigeonholing them is not a good way of 'sharing the love'. And GW needs some love nowadays.

Lol, I should start taking those b12 pills again

Mireles · Dec 12, 2009, 02:38 AM // 02:38

People get runs because the reason they play is for attention and recognition... not for the challenge (aka boring grind) the game presents...

Most players play for the challenge AND recognition....

that being said.... if you got all your titles ran for you.... you kinda lost the bragging rights... because someone obtained them for you at a cost.

Kind of why shadow form is being addressed because you can't tell the people that actually did the grind from the people that got ran.

Sorry farming the same area for runs to pay for things you don't want or can't do doesn't require much skill or critical thinking.

Saying "I could of if i wanted to" or "I would if i had the time" is frivolous. Yeah could be true... but you didn't..

tealspikes · Dec 12, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

People get runs because the reason they play is for attention and recognition... not for the challenge (aka boring grind) the game presents...

Most players play for the challenge AND recognition....

that being said.... if you got all your titles ran for you.... you kinda lost the bragging rights... because someone obtained them for you at a cost.

Titles have become a commodity that you pay for rather than something you earn. The friction is between those wanting to be distinguished for overcoming challenges (which is the intended purpose of titles), and those who obtained them through runs. Unfortunately for the former, the damage is already done and cannot be fixed simply by nerfing running builds. By now most of the people who pay for runs have most of their key titles maxed; the 'legitimacy' of any title will always be in question even post-nerf.

Comparably in GvG even if they nerfed bloodspam to the ground, nobody will ever take the champ title seriously.

FlyMoto · Dec 12, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

A question to all of those who farm gold -> buy run:
Would you buy gold from a seller?

Many of you say "it is much easier and quicker for me to farm 10k (or w/e amount) and then pay a run for a dungeon than it is to try and fail the dungeon, all just to get some crap drops."

Similarly, you could go work a minimum-wage job for 3-4 hours and buy yourself something like 80-90 ectos that would take minimum 20+ runs where you were lucky enough to average at least 4 ectos a run... assuming very effective DayWay play (30 min runs), that is minimum 10 hours of play. 10 hours (which is a crazy low estimate) vs 4 hours... where is it more efficient?

Why grind at all? Aren't you playing this to have fun?

No, I am not trying to support gold sellers or people who buy from them, I'm showing you an exact analogy to those many of you probably despise. In fact, I encourage the opposite - I personally play though pretty much everything (only runs I've bought were drok runs... because of how little I care about prophecies content) and won't pay a cent for anything but content.

However, those who think "I have to have max titles on everything related to skills so that I can play better" are pretty much completely wrong. I play through eotn on my characters, most of the time barely go out of the way for any new skills. Playing through EOTN and doing a dungeon or two should get you to ~4/5 in your Asura/Norn/Vanguard/Dwarven title tracks... which is more than sufficient to use any of those skills at high potential after they were updated. Most skills only last a couple seconds longer or do a couple damage more at max. However, your use of these skills at the right times and synergized with other skills effectively will do much, much, much more than having a r10 skill.

Oh, and cons are almost never necessary (the only time they are necessary is to abuse gimmicks for things like Speed Clears). Note, I said necessary, yes they can be helpful for speeding up a run, but I guarentee you a decent build played smart of H/H can get through pretty much everything. Instead of assuming your skills are too weak or that you need cons, perhaps you should try playing a little smarter. Your primary profession doesn't matter. Cons and pve-only skills were put in as crutches for people to play on levels they are not ready for.

I play to have fun. I don't grind. I do occassionally farm... typically just to see if I can pull it off (being able to pull off some of the harder farms consistently can be a challenge at first). I don't care that you are wielding a req8 Voltaic Spear and Celestial Compass that you spent ages sitting in trade chat buying low and selling high to have enough gold for, nor that you are wearing the same black or white dyed obsidian armor that everyone else wears. I'm more than happy to use a Totem Axe and Byzzr's Benediction with nearly the same mods and cost me a tiny fraction. But if it makes you happy to have your characters all decked out in gear worth 3000 ectos, all GWAMM, great for you. Pr, perhaps, if you had fun playing the market or farming chaos plains with your SF sin repeatedly for months, wonderful.

UnChosen · Dec 12, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyMoto

A question to all of those who farm gold -> buy run:
Would you buy gold from a seller?

Many of you say "it is much easier and quicker for me to farm 10k (or w/e amount) and then pay a run for a dungeon than it is to try and fail the dungeon, all just to get some crap drops."

Similarly, you could go work a minimum-wage job for 3-4 hours and buy yourself something like 80-90 ectos that would take minimum 20+ runs where you were lucky enough to average at least 4 ectos a run... assuming very effective DayWay play (30 min runs), that is minimum 10 hours of play. 10 hours (which is a crazy low estimate) vs 4 hours... where is it more efficient?

Why grind at all? Aren't you playing this to have fun?

No, I am not trying to support gold sellers or people who buy from them, I'm showing you an exact analogy to those many of you probably despise. In fact, I encourage the opposite - I personally play though pretty much everything (only runs I've bought were drok runs... because of how little I care about prophecies content) and won't pay a cent for anything but content.

However, those who think "I have to have max titles on everything related to skills so that I can play better" are pretty much completely wrong. I play through eotn on my characters, most of the time barely go out of the way for any new skills. Playing through EOTN and doing a dungeon or two should get you to ~4/5 in your Asura/Norn/Vanguard/Dwarven title tracks... which is more than sufficient to use any of those skills at high potential after they were updated. Most skills only last a couple seconds longer or do a couple damage more at max. However, your use of these skills at the right times and synergized with other skills effectively will do much, much, much more than having a r10 skill.

Oh, and cons are almost never necessary (the only time they are necessary is to abuse gimmicks for things like Speed Clears). Note, I said necessary, yes they can be helpful for speeding up a run, but I guarentee you a decent build played smart of H/H can get through pretty much everything. Instead of assuming your skills are too weak or that you need cons, perhaps you should try playing a little smarter. Your primary profession doesn't matter. Cons and pve-only skills were put in as crutches for people to play on levels they are not ready for.

I play to have fun. I don't grind. I do occassionally farm... typically just to see if I can pull it off (being able to pull off some of the harder farms consistently can be a challenge at first). I don't care that you are wielding a req8 Voltaic Spear and Celestial Compass that you spent ages sitting in trade chat buying low and selling high to have enough gold for, nor that you are wearing the same black or white dyed obsidian armor that everyone else wears. I'm more than happy to use a Totem Axe and Byzzr's Benediction with nearly the same mods and cost me a tiny fraction. But if it makes you happy to have your characters all decked out in gear worth 3000 ectos, all GWAMM, great for you. Pr, perhaps, if you had fun playing the market or farming chaos plains with your SF sin repeatedly for months, wonderful.

The real life analogy doesn't work because using real life money to buy virtual stuff mean that you lose the ability to buy more REAL stuff. With runs all you do is to shift your playing style to one which isn't frustrating due to un-pug friendly design, and therefore nothing is lost.

Also, the time saved by using a run doesn't necessarily have to be used to farm. Plenty of time I want the runs just to get the Z coins so that I can get more large bags to store my stuff (and bags are NOT optional to me), then I can go play somewhere else where there are REAL people due to pug friendly designs/builds (other Z quests or speed clears). It is frustrating when people use "you can H/h" to justify every design problems....If I want to play single player RPG I wouldn't have bought this game.

Shadowspawn X · Dec 12, 2009, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Saying "I could of if i wanted to" or "I would if i had the time" is frivolous. Yeah could be true... but you didn't..

QFT. No one in their right mind would pay for a hm dungeon to save 10-15 minutes if they could do it themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

Titles have become a commodity that you pay for rather than something you earn. The friction is between those wanting to be distinguished for overcoming challenges (which is the intended purpose of titles), and those who obtained them through runs. Unfortunately for the former, the damage is already done and cannot be fixed simply by nerfing running builds. By now most of the people who pay for runs have most of their key titles maxed; the 'legitimacy' of any title will always be in question even post-nerf.

This is so true, anet has made a fool of legitimate players by not nerfing the runs. I h/h'd hm Vloxen Excavations on my mesmer the other day. I hadn't played it in a while and my build was obsolete, yet after an hour and 30 clovers later I was victorious. I log on yesterday and see some guy running the dungeon for 3e. I could not believe it could be done by one person so I got another hm book and got the run just to see what was going on. I was amazed at what I saw, this guy cut though that dungeon like a hot knife though butter using shadow form. I had no idea this was going on, no need to play this game anymore. I'll be getting my obligatory festival hat this wintersday and its a wrap. Anets neglect has just been a spit in the eye of anyone who ever tried to earn a title by playing the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyMoto

A question to all of those who farm gold -> buy run:
Would you buy gold from a seller?

Pretty sure the gold buyers are a huge subset of people being ran.

FlyMoto · Dec 12, 2009, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

The real life analogy doesn't work because using real life money to buy virtual stuff mean that you lose the ability to buy more REAL stuff. With runs all you do is to shift your playing style to one which isn't frustrating due to un-pug friendly design, and therefore nothing is lost.

Also, the time saved by using a run doesn't necessarily have to be used to farm. Plenty of time I want the runs just to get the Z coins so that I can get more large bags to store my stuff (and bags are NOT optional to me), then I can go play somewhere else where there are REAL people due to pug friendly designs/builds (other Z quests or speed clears). It is frustrating when people use "you can H/h" to justify every design problems....If I want to play single player RPG I wouldn't have bought this game.

Sorry to get philosophical here... but what makes something real? Does it have to be tangible, in your hands? Why isn't an item that you buy in game, use for hours upon hours, count the same as a movie that you see IRL once and takes up two hours of your time? You never bought the movie, you only bought seeing it once. You might not have bought a tangible item with your RL money, but you are still getting plenty of effective entertainment value out of it.

The reason the 'you can h/h' argument is used is because the idea is that if you can use such minimal resources as h/h to beat an area, REAL people with overpowered abilities should be able to do it NO problem. Instead we get people trying to say certain areas are pretty much impossible to do for a certain class because they cannot join a pug because pugs all want Monks, Sins... whatever is not their profession. What isn't right is to call something a design problem when you simply disagree with how you feel you have to play it. You are more than capable of beating any area we say is H/lH-able with a party of people.