Curse

HigherMinion · Jan 15, 2010, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

Yup. /thread

As far as discord bars go, here's my two cents:

AP
YMLaD
EVAS
Finish Him!
Reckless Haste
Enfeebling Blood
Rip Enchantment
SoLS

For discord, at least, I'd rather have the YMLaD-EVAS knocklock and the FH 200 dmg spike.

Many people bring MoP along because when you have AP on your bar, it seems too good to pass up. It isn't worth it, in my opinion, because you don't have any source of focused physical damage, other than EVAS. Spear auto-attacks and minions just don't add up to make it viable. For better or worse, the goal of a discord team is to drop single enemies as fast as possible.

Well, minions DO add up. If you have Animate Shambling on every Discord hero, and Animate Bone Minions on the dedicated Nova applier, I don't see where you're going wrong not to get enough minions for MoP or Barbs not to be effective enough.

Actually, I wouldn't bring Barbs, but Mark Of Death. You really don't need SoLS, though. Soul Reaping + AP is all you need.

syphonus · Jan 15, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, minions DO add up. If you have Animate Shambling on every Discord hero, and Animate Bone Minions on the dedicated Nova applier, I don't see where you're going wrong not to get enough minions for MoP or Barbs not to be effective enough.

Actually, I wouldn't bring Barbs, but Mark Of Death. You really don't need SoLS, though. Soul Reaping + AP is all you need.

Yeah I would never bring barbs, either. And yes, SoLS is totally unnecessary unless you're like me and sit on your defensive set when you discord.

Even then you should rarely need to use it; I have it on because it keeps things moving when your minions all explode at the same time and you're stuck without SR for 15 seconds.

I'm still going to disagree with MoP. The idea is that your target, whatever it may be, is going to die very quickly. The small amount of AoE damage you would get out of it is negated by the fact that those enemies will die in roughly the same time that they would otherwise. If it's the discord target you're MoP'ing, minions will be lucky to hit even a couple times before it poofs. If it isn't, then a few minions will be hitting it for pocket change damage, before it becomes your target and it, too, poofs. Nothing really changes except for maybe some mob scatter here and there.

Though I feel that MoP never really was an effective compliment skill anyway.

AtomicMew · Jan 15, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

If it's the discord target you're MoP'ing, minions will be lucky to hit even a couple times before it poofs.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it means you (ideally) need to control how much damage you do with discord, which you can.

syphonus · Jan 15, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it means you (ideally) need to control how much damage you do with discord, which you can.

Right, which is really the point to begin with. Discord is designed with a fundamentally different approach in mind. If you don't want your target to die as fast as possible, such as when it is hexed with MoP, then you're causing a serious shift in the priority of the team. You would be far better off running with stuff that takes advantage of it. In a discord team, without the physicals to support it, it winds up being sub-par in both areas.

AtomicMew · Jan 15, 2010, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

Right, which is really the point to begin with. Discord is designed with a fundamentally different approach in mind. If you don't want your target to die as fast as possible, such as when it is hexed with MoP, then you're causing a serious shift in the priority of the team. You would be far better off running with stuff that takes advantage of it. In a discord team, without the physicals to support it, it winds up being sub-par in both areas.

No, I don't think so. Discordway adds physical packets with more minions and single target damage with discord. Paraway adds physical packets with spears and single target damage with... spears.

If anything, the argument is in favor of discordway, since you can decouple single target damage from physical packets, thus giving you more control.

You argue that if you have MoP on a target, you don't want it to die as fast as possible. I hope you can appreciate how specious that argument is. If it were true, you'd take zero in spear mastery with paras or run triple JB minion bombers with necros. Of course we don't, because we realize single target damage is also important, which is why single target damage like spear mastery or equivalently, discord, is important.

syphonus · Jan 16, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You argue that if you have MoP on a target, you don't want it to die as fast as possible. I hope you can appreciate how specious that argument is. If it were true, you'd take zero in spear mastery with paras or run triple JB minion bombers with necros. Of course we don't, because we realize single target damage is also important, which is why single target damage like spear mastery or equivalently, discord, is important.

Alright, we are arguing semantics now, but I will concede that the point is to deliver more packets per MoP'd target rather than keep it alive as long as possible. This doesn't change the fact that discord doesn't deliver enough of them to make it worthwhile.

The Josip · Jan 16, 2010, 12:35 AM // 00:35

The thing with MoP in Discord is: is your hero going to cast it at the target you're calling, or somewhere else? I'd say hero will cast it on called target, and you are calling targets all the time.

Why is this a problem? Because, personally, I often call backline - for instance, dangerous eles and similiar nukers who do a lot of damage in HM. While I'm dazing and sniping these, minions with death novas are chewing enemy frontline.

Now, for MoP to be triggered, you need to call frontline... so target enemy warriors and such. In the meantime you get meteors on your head. That's how I see it.

Of course, I could be missing something.
---

Since this is Discordway thread I'll post my build; maybe someone has better suggestions:

Me (Mesmer)
AIncantation
AE
EVAS
AP
Technobabble / YMLD
Pain Inverter / Finish Him
Unnatural Signet
Rez / Mantra / anything

LIVIA
Discord
Shambling
WoW
Spirit Light
MBaS
PwK
Life
Recup

OLIAS
Discord
Putrid Bile
Minions
Nova
Masochism
Dwayna's Sorrow
Aegis
Rez chant

WHISPERS
Discord
Enf blood
Putrid Bile
Minions
Masochism
SYG
Fall Back
WSReturn

Henchmen: mesmer, ele, monk, monk (mesmer replaced with ele or ranger in areas where mesmer henchie is sucky one with shared burden)

Life Bringing · Jan 16, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

The thing with MoP in Discord is: is your hero going to cast it at the target you're calling, or somewhere else? I'd say hero will cast it on called target, and you are calling targets all the time.

Why is this a problem? Because, personally, I often call backline - for instance, dangerous eles and similiar nukers who do a lot of damage in HM. While I'm dazing and sniping these, minions with death novas are chewing enemy frontline.

Now, for MoP to be triggered, you need to call frontline... so target enemy warriors and such. In the meantime you get meteors on your head. That's how I see it.

Of course, I could be missing something.
---

Since this is Discordway thread I'll post my build; maybe someone has better suggestions:

Me (Mesmer)
AIncantation
AE
EVAS
AP
Technobabble / YMLD
Pain Inverter / Finish Him
Unnatural Signet
Rez / Mantra / anything

LIVIA
Discord
Shambling
WoW
Spirit Light
MBaS
PwK
Life
Recup

OLIAS
Discord
Putrid Bile
Minions
Nova
Masochism
Dwayna's Sorrow
Aegis
Rez chant

WHISPERS
Discord
Enf blood
Putrid Bile
Minions
Masochism
SYG
Fall Back
WSReturn

Henchmen: mesmer, ele, monk, monk (mesmer replaced with ele or ranger in areas where mesmer henchie is sucky one with shared burden)

We were actually discussing MoP on the caller Josip. As for your build, it looks like Livia will be running very low on energy, even with Soul Reaping. everything else looks fine, although there will be a lot of fighting over corpses between whispers and olias.

The Josip · Jan 16, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00

They fight for corpses alright, but as long as they end up with nice amount of minions each, I've no problem with it. Livia is OK so far, I could put SoLS somewhere but really not sure where. All the skills are key skills. Her energy might fool you a little, because half of the skillbar is filled with long recharge skills.

As for MoP on caller, don't know, never tried it since I can't use it as Mesmer primary (I've to use AP).

maxxfury · Jan 16, 2010, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You argue that if you have MoP on a target, you don't want it to die as fast as possible. I hope you can appreciate how specious that argument is. If it were true, you'd take zero in spear mastery with paras or run triple JB minion bombers with necros. Of course we don't, because we realize single target damage is also important, which is why single target damage like spear mastery or equivalently, discord, is important.

sidenote: regarding mop procs, spears proc mop, disco doesnt.

But correct, obviously Aoe and spike all have a place in your offensive arsenal.

A good point is that if you bring mop and disco spike the person you mop'd then your wasting your time. Gettin barely any if any procs as your spike should kill the focus before anyone gets to hit it if your doin it right..Badtimes.

But then also, if you cast mop then switch target to spike another mob, your heroes arent targeting the mop focus any longer, thus, no procs of mop...badtimes..

If you DO mop one guy then switch to another to spike, then you leave the proccing of mop to the idiot ai of minions...who will be attempting to attack your target no? or just hitting whom ever they want. Making for a very lackluster proccing of mop. Badtimes.

On the upside, minions are stupid, and will at times hit the mop'd target when your spiking others, therefore not been seen to be quite so stupid.. Goodtimes.

Disco is the main focus of a disco team, duh, with minions and henchies adding in some aoe and secondary damage to assist. Mop isnt the worst skill to take by anymeans to add some secondary damage, but its sure as hell not super reliable or a main point of offense with this style of spike, rinse, repeat play(more a bonus when it works) as its a bitch to coordinate your minions onto the focus and mostly not worth the effort to try to 'micro' them. Average times.