Curse

Lourens · Sep 18, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Wild Karrde ,

Your wrong

a Hornbow is good if u use it with an attack skill like barrage , refire rate with all bows is then the same

and a ranger is a ranged combatant not melee so stop talking about melee combatants go talk about paragons then

theres a nice skill called : [skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill]
so u can bust those condition removal monks as those conditions reapply often

and i dont think u got much condition removal in PvE honestly

15-28 Dmg is fine one of the best dmg ranges

only a scythe does more dmg 9-41 but u have to be lucky to hit that 41

Cya

Dean Harper · Sep 18, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Theyr not underpowered, they do what they are meant to do and do it well. They spread conditions and interrupt. Plain and Simple.

Epinephrine · Sep 18, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

a Hornbow is good if u use it with an attack skill like barrage , refire rate with all bows is then the same

I wrote a long post on bows, looking at barrage, barrage with IAS, Quickshot, Needling Shot etc, and showed that the Horn Bow doesn't do that well in those tests. I am guessing that it's been lost, since I can't find it however.

I suggest rather than simply reciting "facts" though that you actually try it - count how many barrages you get per minute and determine the effectiveness yourself. You'll be surprised.

EDIT: found it, it was buried a bit.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ght=ne edling

Essentially testing showed that hornbows deal less damage with barrage than any other bow vs AL 60; vs higher AL (72-179) the Horn Bow edges ahead of Long/Recurve, but only for that interval. Adding FW or a conjure or anything shifts it back toward the other bows.
With Tiger's Fury up constantly Horn Bow did a little better, placing above the Long Bow/Recurve, but well below the Flat/Short Bows. Again, adding any damage bonus per arrow shifts it back toward the faster bows.

There was only one instance in which the Horn Bow had a slight edge in DPS, and that was the alternating Quick/Needling shot spam.

Obviously it's useful on a spike, since the spike is a fixed duration (interval between a shot and an interrupt) and you want to maximize damage.

iridescentfyre · Sep 18, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

You could go with the argument that a ranger can apply conditions rapidly to many enemies, but there are so many good condition removals it can make your mad condition spamming almost mute, or a minor irritation.

Well, the argument could also be made that you could do tons of damage, but good healing will blunt that as well. Even the best spike will hit for 50 damage if the enemy monk throws Protective Spirit around well enough. Simply because its possible that the damage/condition/hex/knockdown you caused could end or be fixed doesn't render them useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

And an assasin can apply all the conditions a ranger does PLUS deep wound and knockdown.

Bad argument. Assassins can do all of that, but they have other drawbacks. They're predictable and painfully easy to interrupt, thus shutting down their attack chain for as much as 30-45 seconds sometimes. Assassins don't have anywhere near the defenses that Rangers (and Warriors) get, and finally Assassins cannot spread those conditions around using only Assassin skills. They apply them to one target quickly, kill the target, then they're out of the game til they recharge. As a Ranger with an "underpowered" bow, I for one do not envy Assassins.

Lourens · Sep 18, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I wrote a long post on bows, looking at barrage, barrage with IAS, Quickshot, Needling Shot etc, and showed that the Horn Bow doesn't do that well in those tests. I am guessing that it's been lost, since I can't find it however.

I suggest rather than simply reciting "facts" though that you actually try it - count how many barrages you get per minute and determine the effectiveness yourself. You'll be surprised.

EDIT: found it, it was buried a bit.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ght=ne edling

Essentially testing showed that hornbows deal less damage with barrage than any other bow vs AL 60; vs higher AL (72-179) the Horn Bow edges ahead of Long/Recurve, but only for that interval. Adding FW or a conjure or anything shifts it back toward the other bows.
With Tiger's Fury up constantly Horn Bow did a little better, placing above the Long Bow/Recurve, but well below the Flat/Short Bows. Again, adding any damage bonus per arrow shifts it back toward the faster bows.

There was only one instance in which the Horn Bow had a slight edge in DPS, and that was the alternating Quick/Needling shot spam.

Obviously it's useful on a spike, since the spike is a fixed duration (interval between a shot and an interrupt) and you want to maximize damage.

Short/Flat bow: ~1225 damage
Long/Recurve: ~1131 damage
Horn bow: ~1119 damage

remember barrage has a recharge time so all bows fire barrage at the same rate or am i wrong ?

Wiki :
"Best when used with a bow with a slower attack speed, such as a Longbow or a Hornbow. Barrage will recycle just in time for your attack to finish, allowing for this skill to be spammed indefinitely. This also means that combining with an IAS generally leads to less efficiency. "

Epinephrine · Sep 18, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

Short/Flat bow: ~1225 damage
Long/Recurve: ~1131 damage
Horn bow: ~1119 damage

remember barrage has a recharge time so all bows fire barrage at the same rate or am i wrong ?

Wiki :
"Best when used with a bow with a slower attack speed, such as a Longbow or a Hornbow. Barrage will recycle just in time for your attack to finish, allowing for this skill to be spammed indefinitely. This also means that combining with an IAS generally leads to less efficiency. "

That was the point of my investigation, to determine whether it was true - which it isn't.

Vallen looked at some issues with bows and aftercast delays a while back, it's archived on his wiki page - but it's not uncommon for a wiki to be wrong, especially since well meaning folks will simply insert their beliefs. Nothing is quite as conclusive as actually counting how many barrages you get per minute - empirical evidence>wiki "common knowledge"

I should probably update the wiki page :P

Evilsod · Sep 18, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

and if u combine that with splinter shot woah

Remind me again why a bow is balanced because of 1 elites use with Splinter Weapon? Dervish + Splinter gives more damage, just not a good combo for a derv attribute wise. Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe/Whirling Attack give more damage, is quite energy heavy. Splinter Barrage is just the more usable.

iridescentfyre · Sep 18, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

Short/Flat bow: ~1225 damage
Long/Recurve: ~1131 damage
Horn bow: ~1119 damage

remember barrage has a recharge time so all bows fire barrage at the same rate or am i wrong ?

Wiki :
"Best when used with a bow with a slower attack speed, such as a Longbow or a Hornbow. Barrage will recycle just in time for your attack to finish, allowing for this skill to be spammed indefinitely. This also means that combining with an IAS generally leads to less efficiency. "

No. Barrage has a recharge time, not a cast time. Any attack skill that doesn't explicitly state a cast time (like, for instance, Savage Shot, Distracting, Needling, etc), has the cast time of your weapon's refire. What you're saying is true of Needling Shot and Quick Shot because they say they cast in 1 second (less than the fastest bow, 2 seconds).

What that wiki article is saying is that on a Short or Flat bow, the refire rate is fast enough that by the time Barrage is ready to fire again, your bow is halfway to firing an ensuing autoattack shot.

Age · Sep 19, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Bows like any other weapon are an instrument they only deliver the damage.When you take all your skill off your bar you will deliver the same amount the bow is designed for the same can be said about spear with no skills.Bow don't do deep wound cause there is no skill that does it unlike spear,sword and axe.Hammers don't even cause dw.

Epinephrine · Sep 19, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Age, have you even looked at the skill lists?
Crushing Blow is a hammer deep wound. In fact, every weapon except the bow can cause a deep wound.

terminus123 · Sep 19, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

it just seems to me the only great dps ranger bars out there always are either Barrage with Splinter weapons and something, or Glass Arrow with something, But other classes like Warrior, Assasins, Paras can have many differant skill bars and still have a good dps.

Wild Karrde · Sep 19, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

a Hornbow is good if u use it with an attack skill like barrage , refire rate with all bows is then the same

WRONG!!... read above posts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

and a ranger is a ranged combatant not melee so stop talking about melee combatants go talk about paragons then

If you look on the rest of this thread its already been done and the bow has been found lacking in damage compared to every other physical damage weapon INCLUDING spear. I was talking about conditions anyway.

And why is comparing ranged damage to melee damage so bad? why would bow be over powered if they were somewhat on par with melee weapons damage. Sure you dont have to run up to your target to kill it but it still susceptible to all the counters to melee. A bow will never have the same attacks rate as a melee weapon such as a axe, sword or daggers; even if the refire rate was adjusted a little. And arrows can be dodged a swing of the sword cant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

and i dont think u got much condition removal in PvE honestly

Youre right, I was thinking more in terms of PvP, but then again this thread is about PvE ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

Bad argument. Assassins can do all of that, but they have other drawbacks. They're predictable and painfully easy to interrupt, thus shutting down their attack chain for as much as 30-45 seconds sometimes. Assassins don't have anywhere near the defenses that Rangers (and Warriors) get, and finally Assassins cannot spread those conditions around using only Assassin skills. They apply them to one target quickly, kill the target, then they're out of the game til they recharge. As a Ranger with an "underpowered" bow, I for one do not envy Assassins.

I dont see why people are always saying "sins pop in and kill a target and then they are out of the game for a bit while their skills recharge." If you watch most sins, they are NOT out of the game after they go through their combo, and if so its only for a few seconds, not that long. SOME do use builds with long recharges but a majority of those skill are shadow stepping skills which isnt really needed for a combo to be rattled off.

I dont know maybe Im wrong but whenever I see a sin in PvE or the arenas or AB(dont really do any HA or GvG so wouldnt know about there) they arent "out of a fight" after they go through thier combo.

Epinephrine · Sep 19, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

True, assassins have reasonably frequent combos.

I agree that the bow has good interrupting capacity; I disagree that it's a particularly great degen spreader - in that it's not the bow that does that. Apply Poison can be used with anything, granted the bow and spear are the only ranged weapons, hence their usefulness in spreading conditions. The bow skills themselves are largely lousy at spreading conditions, with the exception of crippling shot, and there are only two conditions that can be "spread" via preparations, one can be used with any weapon, bleeding can be spread either via Melandru's Arrows or Barbed Arrows. How often do you see bleeding being spread that way though?

Bows can inflict daze, cripple, bleeding, burning (via elites) and poison (via elite bow attack, or via apply poison for any weapon); daze and burning aren't spreadable, cripple is only via an elite, posion can be spread via apply poison by anyone.

Given how strong condition removal is, and the heal party-type skills that have become prominent (LoD, paragon skills etc.) spreading degen isn't really that strong - sure, it can help, but you are handing out heals to some extent versus condition removal, and the pressure is easily handled by most any team - I don't buy that it's particularly great.

Every other weapon can deep wound, all but hammers can bleed and cripple, only bows, daggers and spears give viable dazes really, unless you use Awe with a hammer, burning can be delivered by spears in a non-elite manner, Poison can be done via apply poison by any X/R, or by bows and daggers, weakness by hammers and axes (and any melee weapon via melee attacks), blind by hammers and daggers, hammers and daggers can KD, as can melee weapons via melee attack skills.

So, in the age of pressure via conditions being handled more easily and condition handling skills being buffed, which is handier - spreading a bit of degen or the ability to deep wound/knockdown? I get why bows don't have a deepwound - it'd make spiking with them so nasty, but paragons have deep wound at a range, and the assassins have gotten a ton of deep wound delivery systems.

To me, the condition argument doesn't wash. I'll agree that they disrupt effectively - that's certainly true. Distracting/Savage are what allows the bow to function in essence. Back before LoD and various other pressure relief skills spreading poison was powerful, now it's ok. Giving up an elite to spread bleeding is unlikely, and barbed arrows is simply inferior to apply poison.

PureEvilYak · Sep 23, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Bows are an underpowered weapon because Melandru gave us preparations, that we might fight more intelligently than the tanks and spinning tops of Tyria.

I mean, seriously, guys (who think they're underpowered), bows can be the best weapon in the game. Using a glass arrows hybrid, I managed to kill a hard mode enemy in one second. Admittedly, all four of my shots (triple shot + savage) criticalled, but even without the criticals I can consistantly deal a lot of damage.

And when I want a non-damage focused build, I can spread conditions far and wide, or interrupt every skill the enemy tries to use. And for those who say that any weapon can spread conditions with apply poison, have you ever seen a tank try and spread poison? They'd be running from enemy to enemy. Rangers don't have to move. Its just tab - space - tab - space - and so on. Plus, they can leave out apply poison, and use poison tip sig (yes, I know, a non bow skill) barbed arrows, and burning arrow. Or any number of combinations.

Bows are only underpowered if you don't use them properly.

jrk247 · Sep 23, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureEvilYak

Bows are only underpowered if you don't use them properly.

QFT. Rangers are deadly if used properly.

Faer · Sep 23, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureEvilYak

I managed to kill a hard mode enemy in one second.

AAAAACHOO

*sniffle* Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit.

Miss Mikame · Sep 24, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

This is quite a controversy.
Bows and melee is like apples and oranges - you cant compare the two.

Honestly i think such can be summed up in two Points.

1 is balance
Bows are Ranged thats a fact. you stay out of the battle able to dodge things with ease and generally are not worse for wear.
the flipside is that bows "have slightly less damage" (i say that because of basic physics -a projectile slows over distance) and theyre easier to dodge moreso for a shortbow than a long or recurve bow.

2 is how you play
They also have neat features like being able to hit someone down below you - you cant do that with a sword.
The oposing party can hammer you with spells etc before you have a chance to even get close. Summons etc then your screwed.
In saying that theres good skill that let you snek up or get close quick. and if your a ranger and someone does then well you lose the inherent useful effect of being a ranger.
Being a ranger is like the FPS equivelent of a sniper.
some players like to runround popping shots off at anyone foolish enough to stray inside their scope, and others like to bust out with shotguns. its
how you like to play.
A ranger is kind of a utility as stated earlier, poping off shots to weaken the defence while your short range party members charge up the flank or whatever.

If you dont like that role then dont do it, quit your bitching and leave it for the pro's. cos thats what we're for. to watch your back while you charge.
Of course what ranger isnt useful without a few short range skills.
I prefer to mix it up a bit. the Assassins have some nice dagger wielding combos so again depends on how you play.

PureEvilYak · Sep 24, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

*sniffle* Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit.

Oh really?

I was attacking level [22?] Grawl Monk in Regent's Valley
The key points to the damage:

Glass Arrows (preparation) - "I Am The Strongest" (Norn r6) - Asuran Scan (Asura r6)

Then, I used triple shot, followed almost instantaneously by savage shot. All 4 criticalled, and I'm fairly sure my sundering mod kicked in. Thats around 130-140 damage x 3 + 150 damage. 1 hit kill.

I would have taken a picture of it, but I was fairly surprised that the enemy had just disappeared, and the chance of 4 criticals is TINY.

moriz · Sep 25, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

asuran scan and triple shot both have cast times. for triple shot, it's close to 2 seconds as it is a standard bow attack. therefore, you did not kill your target in 1 second.

Age · Sep 25, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Age, have you even looked at the skill lists?
Crushing Blow is a hammer deep wound. In fact, every weapon except the bow can cause a deep wound.

I usually play sword or axe warrior experimenting with hammer.