Curse

Issac · Jul 28, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

I don't think bows are underpowered, the damage isn't as high as other weapons but the damage isn't bad. Plus you can interrupt and ad conditions so it evens out.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 28, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I'm sure that this has been said over and over again by decent players, but I just want to emphasize it.

Bows are a utility/disruption weapon. They are not meant for damage. If they did decent damage, along with having access to the most efficient condition spreading and best interrupts in the game, they would be ridiculously overpowered. You don't need damage when you have 2 of the best skills in the game, savage shot and dshot, on one bar.

Epinephrine · Jul 28, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Right, obviously every build should be dshot and savage. God forbid that a ranger be used for ANYTHING else.

When will people get that the condition angle is a weak argument, thanks to all the new condition delivering skills (like Ebon Dust Aura, Wounding Strike, Crippling Slash, Harrier's Grasp etc.), the improved condition removals, better party-wide healing/condition handling options (whether LoD, paragon skills or Extinguish etc.) and so on. Rangers are behind the power curve, and are largely used for interrupt and burning arrow since in a split the skill is of some use. Apply Poison, while an amazing skill really, is available to any X/R and can be delivered faster with a spear.

I'm not saying they are useless, there are a build or two that can be played, but they're exactly the same builds pretty much, and the ranger is pretty pigeonholed.

Warskull · Jul 29, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Right, obviously every build should be dshot and savage. God forbid that a ranger be used for ANYTHING else.

When will people get that the condition angle is a weak argument, thanks to all the new condition delivering skills (like Ebon Dust Aura, Wounding Strike, Crippling Slash, Harrier's Grasp etc.), the improved condition removals, better party-wide healing/condition handling options (whether LoD, paragon skills or Extinguish etc.) and so on. Rangers are behind the power curve, and are largely used for interrupt and burning arrow since in a split the skill is of some use. Apply Poison, while an amazing skill really, is available to any X/R and can be delivered faster with a spear.

I'm not saying they are useless, there are a build or two that can be played, but they're exactly the same builds pretty much, and the ranger is pretty pigeonholed.

You really underestimate the burning arrow. Burning arrows is one of the most flexible builds out there. It is one of the strongest soloists, provides interrupt and degen utility at the stand. Few builds have such balanced power between splitting and stand play. You can make builds that truly excel at splits/ganking, but rarely do they play well at the stand. When playing a BA I know I have a pretty decent shot at beating anything thrown at me in small split situations.

Yes, we have other strong condition skills. However at 12 spec (what most BA run these days) you get a total of 82 extra damage out of burning arrow. It can be removed, but the burning is short duration and it usually only saves your around 28 damage.

In the right build a well placed daze from BHA will cause things to die. Daze is pretty dangerous.

No class can apply a covered cripple as often as a crip shot. Crip shots are hell on flaggers. Even if he can't kill the flagger he can probably get you a boost by sheer virtue of crippling the flagger all the way in and out if you give him the opportunity.

Not every class can afford apply poison. 15 energy is a lot for a warrior or dervish. In addition warriors and dervishes are melee classes that don't have the time to spend 2 seconds putting up a prep. Paragons really need to be constantly building adren. I haven't seen /R with apply poison really ever work. Apply poison is costly and takes time to put up.

If you buff most bow attack skills, they just get used for ranger spike.

People may say bows are underpowered, but ask any top player if rangers are viable. They'll all still admit rangers are a viable and strong class.

Epinephrine · Jul 29, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

You really underestimate the burning arrow. Burning arrows is one of the most flexible builds out there. It is one of the strongest soloists, provides interrupt and degen utility at the stand.

No I don't, it's about the only solid GvG ranger build out there atm.

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In the right build a well placed daze from BHA will cause things to die. Daze is pretty dangerous.

BHA in GvG? unlikely. Yeah, you can run up and use it point blank, but that's really obvious, and from a range you shouldn't ever succeed, since someone will be watching and the target will strafe. If you want run-up-and-touch shutdown the blackout mesmer is a better option. BHA is questionable in (decent) PvP. Heck, you should always know when there is an incoming diversion or BHA, and it's not hard to tell if you are the target of BHA.

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No class can apply a covered cripple as often as a crip shot. Crip shots are hell on flaggers.

Well, you can technically get them off every few seconds, yeah.

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Even if he can't kill the flagger he can probably get you a boost by sheer virtue of crippling the flagger all the way in and out if you give him the opportunity.

Umm, cripshot is the least of my problems as a runner. Sure, it can be annoying, but if their cripshot is mauling me something is going wrong, seriously. Cripshot can be useful, true, and I'm glad they reduced the cost back down to 10 - it wasn't really viable at 15 anymore. Still, you can do a pretty good job of playing the "hamper a runner" role with so many builds; Me/A, E/Mo, W/A and so on, many of which will have better DPS while doing so or better defensive abilities.

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Not every class can afford apply poison. 15 energy is a lot for a warrior or dervish.

It's not so bad for a dervish, with 4 pips of energy and their cheap enchantments.

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If you buff most bow attack skills, they just get used for ranger spike.

Yep. Spike will exist in GW in any form that delivers damage at a range, see air spike, rit spike etc... Dual Shot is the biggest culprit here, giving an easy way to up damage and double all the mmany bonuses a ranger can stack.

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People may say bows are underpowered, but ask any top player if rangers are viable. They'll all still admit rangers are a viable and strong class.

They're viable in one or two roles, yes. Yet "top players" like Ensign (I somehow think he's qualified) have expressed the opinion that there is something lacking in the ranger at present.

==========

I am not suggesting that simply boosting damage is a solution - that will create huge ranger spike problems; if anything you want to increase the rate of attack slightly and make using attack skills easier. Increasing attack rate wouldn't help spike builds much since they rely on using a dual/interrupt mostly, and that gap is determined by the speed of the interrupt, not by the bow's inherent attack rate. What it would allow is the use of more attack skills in a period of time and would up the base dps slightly, allowing people choosing to try to get some damage out of a bow a decent chance. Since you wouldn't be altering the recharge of skills like dshot and savage it wouldn't bump the number of interrupts available in a period of time, but would allow a ranger to more often make use of attack skills. I haven't fully thought it out, it might require reducing attack damage or preparation bonuses slightly (again helping prevent the use of r-spike alone) to balance it out, but the long period between bow shots seriously limits how effective attack-based damage can be. The fact that +damage attacks abound in the ranger line yet are seldom used demostrates how weak they are.

Increasing the attack rate, reducing slightly the damage boost from preparations and making it possible to more effectively use bow attacks to pressure (not spike) by making them affordable might be a solution.

Evilsod · Jul 29, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I think your meaning of flexible differs to mine... the build is 7/8 skills set in stone. The only skill that ever changes is the res signet so i've been told. It allows you to play in different places and be effective... but the build itself doesn't change. And this build is based entirely around 1 skill...

If it wasn't for Burning Arrow rangers wouldn't even exist in 9/10 teams. And even then they're not really that useful in 8v8 situations when your team is forced to stick around and fight. They can add in the odd interrupt... yet i've seen Mes and /Mes do the same thing. But they're pretty useless. Burning Arrow... the excellent spike assist skill, hit by Restore Condition, that skill is common enough. Mending Touch also.

A warrior is probably at a stretch to use Apply... but why would they? They don't need a 15e poison when the chances are they'll pressure a single target until it becomes too dangerous to follow, change to help spike or are forced to change through prot skills. Paragons can easily afford it with GftEs and has the range too for decent spread.

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People may say bows are underpowered, but ask any top player if rangers are viable. They'll all still admit rangers are a viable and strong class.

The class is viable, not the weapon. BA, BHA, Cripshot and Glass spike assist are the only bow builds left. There are more gimmick builds involving other classes weaponry or trap/spirit builds than there are for bows. When a class so frequently turns to another classes weapon to be useful, how the hell can you continue to say the bow is 'perfectly fine the way it is'.

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If you buff most bow attack skills, they just get used for ranger spike.

[skill]Keen Arrow[/skill][skill]Dual Shot[/skill][skill]Forked Arrow[/skill][skill]Glass Arrows[/skill][skill]Order of Pain[/skill][skill]Conjure Frost[/skill]
And the new 1, Sloth Hunters Shot.

Keen Arrow does more damage than almost every other attack skill in the game. The same is said for Sloth Hunters Shot if it remains the same. Dual Shot and Forked Shot, overbuff each arrow with FW/Winno, etc, some major damage. Glass Arrows/Conjure Frost spike builds.

People say that so often... "Oh no we can't buff Ranger skills cos someone might use them for something!". The non-elite attack skills are as pathetic as they come. Who the hell is gonna use Power Shot as a Ranger Spike skill unless for some reason they buff it to do +60 damage?

I'm still sticking with the skills need buffing and the refire speed needs improving, not the bos base damage.

Yue · Jul 30, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

"However at 12 spec (what most BA run these days) you get a total of 82 extra damage out of burning arrow. It can be removed, but the burning is short duration and it usually only saves your around 28 damage.
"

10 spec for BA, Warskull.

Bloodied Blade · Aug 02, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

I think I'd like to see the range buff on bows scale much better than it does (with regards to +height fired from = +range).

As to those who are touting rspike as the reason bows can't be buffed- Ranger spike is not as overpowered as you seem to think it is. Anyone with a decent knowledge of class mechanics can overcome it quite easily.

I can completely understand where Evilsod is coming from, but I don't agree that bow damage should be increased. You cannot increase base bow damage and expect an immediate effect of "WoW Hunter" in auto-attack. If you expect the ranger to do massive amounts of damage, and want it buffed to do so, then the base damage of both the bows themselves, and the skills in the marksmanship line, needs to be reworked.

Personally, I am content with the fact that I do not expect my ranger to do amazing damage, I expect foe-crippling utility from it.

Have fun...I'm probably done with this thread, I don't really browse guru much anymore because I have other stuff to do.

Warskull · Aug 05, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

The class is viable, not the weapon. BA, BHA, Cripshot and Glass spike assist are the only bow builds left. There are more gimmick builds involving other classes weaponry or trap/spirit builds than there are for bows. When a class so frequently turns to another classes weapon to be useful, how the hell can you continue to say the bow is 'perfectly fine the way it is'.

How many elites do axe warriors run? How about sword warriors and hammer warriors? Warriors tend to have narrow use of elites, yet I don't see anyone complaining that axes or hammers are underpowered.

As for flexibility, the BA role performs wells in a number of different roles. They can serve as degen pressure, a strong split character, and a strong disrupter.

As for buffing the non-elite attack skills. They are either going to be condition skills, worse than the ranger spike skills, or start getting used for ranger spike. If you buff power shot to not be as good as dual shot for damage, why would I ever run it? If you make power shot better than dual shot, then I am going to make it my new spike skill.

People are seriously selling rangers short here.

Evilsod · Aug 06, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

How many elites do axe warriors run? How about sword warriors and hammer warriors? Warriors tend to have narrow use of elites, yet I don't see anyone complaining that axes or hammers are underpowered.

Oh what a great comparison... Axe Warrior run Eviscerate... pretty much it. Sword Warriors run Cripslash, Hammer Warriors on the other hand i've seen using Earthshaker, Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker. What does this have to do with anything? We're saying bows are underpowered... your saying axe warriors have only 1 good elite. Suggesting a warrior is underpowered is laughable, that or the part where Warriors can easily solo spike casters has been a joke these last 2 years.

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As for flexibility, the BA role performs wells in a number of different roles. They can serve as degen pressure, a strong split character, and a strong disrupter.

They gank because they can survive well and kill off the NPCs easily, hardly surprising that they can kill single Rangers who have absolutely no real defence. Degen pressure? Isn't that usually because they can't really get by to kill NPCs so they have nothing better to do? Split... well thats the same as Degen pressure, still not related to the bow since its all degen. And disruption is just a Ranger thing.

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As for buffing the non-elite attack skills. They are either going to be condition skills, worse than the ranger spike skills, or start getting used for ranger spike. If you buff power shot to not be as good as dual shot for damage, why would I ever run it? If you make power shot better than dual shot, then I am going to make it my new spike skill.

People are seriously selling rangers short here.

God here we go again... the conditional skills are mostly bollocks. The conditional is usually way too awkward and tends to only apply conditions anyway, usually bleeding. When Screaming Shot is changed to fire 2 arrows, 1 dealing Bleeding 1 dealing Deep Wound, then maybe we will. I'm still waiting to see a replacement for Dual Shot/Forked Arrow + Savage Shot. Keen Arrow was short lived since all buffs are amplified per arrow. Sloth Hunters Shot is overpowered, its damage is extreme for an easy condition. Seriously... stop trying to say R-spike will become overpowered, getting very boring hearing half the reasons for this been about R-spike. Bring this point up when Izzy ups Power Shot to +60 and makes Punishing Shot +50.

Ensign · Aug 06, 2007, 05:47 AM // 05:47

The skills available are more important than the properties of the weapon itself. Hammers would not be used, ever, if it weren't for the unique knockdown abilities of the weapon. Bows, as weapons, are terrible, but Distracting Shot and Savage Shot are awesome and require bows, as do the best Ranger elites.

If you looked at everything in a vacuum, spears and scythes are clearly overpowered while bows and hammers are underpowered, from looking at their weapon properties alone. You can't look at them in a vacuum though, and when you take the skills each weapon enables into account the entire package tends to balance out - the weak weapons have the best skills, the best weapons have the weakest skills (except Scythe, but, yeah), and on the whole every weapon has its place. That's balanced right?

Evilsod · Aug 06, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The skills available are more important than the properties of the weapon itself. Hammers would not be used, ever, if it weren't for the unique knockdown abilities of the weapon. Bows, as weapons, are terrible, but Distracting Shot and Savage Shot are awesome and require bows, as do the best Ranger elites.

If you looked at everything in a vacuum, spears and scythes are clearly overpowered while bows and hammers are underpowered, from looking at their weapon properties alone. You can't look at them in a vacuum though, and when you take the skills each weapon enables into account the entire package tends to balance out - the weak weapons have the best skills, the best weapons have the weakest skills (except Scythe, but, yeah), and on the whole every weapon has its place. That's balanced right?

The Hammer obviously requires a unique condition, that is, knockdown, to be used. But then again... Shock Axe? Its not quite as good but it does make Hammer less desirable, especially with the lack of a shield.
But interrupts really aren't unique enough... i mean Hammer gets the knockdowns and it seems pretty much all anti-knockdown skills aren't used anymore so theres your interrupt + a little disabling. Even spear has an interrupt, albeit crap. But i'm sure you of all people would know that Thumpers are very likely to hit you with Hammer Bash purely to interrupt a vital skill if its cast time is long enough to hit.

I would agree that if you just looked at the weapons then Scythe and Spear are clearly overpowered... but really bow is definatly underpowered. Purely looking at attack speed, bow is absolutely awful. But even if you compare some of the skills... i mean Spear has skills with 1/2 cast time that actually do damage, not interrupts, Scythe has 3/4 skills that do damage and are spammable, Axe and Strength have 1/2 cast skills for damage. Punishing Shot is completely out of date now, what is the point of using it... Glass Arrows gives ~+17, Punishing does +21 and doesn't help with the first skill. Forked Arrow not working on a hex is just too far, with an enchantment the reason is obvious but with a hex its almost a useless skill with hexes easily lasting 20-35 seconds.

The weak weapons having the best skills just doesn't work with the bow... i mean the bow is a weak weapon, before it use to be a mediocre weapon, its damage is poor, its refire is abysmal. Its new skills seem to be getting stronger and stronger, but its old skills just don't change... pretty much all Prophecies Marks skills are useless. The balance has really gone to pot... i'm not saying damage needs to be increased on the bow, but its attack speed really needs looking at, so do the skills.

ifthen · Aug 08, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

There’s just no question that Ranger DPS sucks.

Most people that say hunters are fine say something along the lines of it would be OP if rangers could do ever good dps. With the new professions, Rangers being perma-slotted into degen or interrupt bots just doesn’t cut it. It’s one dimensional and particularly not fun.

Monks can smite like bananas if they chose to spec that way and focus less on heal/prot. Why do people have an issue with Rangers having the OPTION to dps?

Rangers don’t need a big boost. They need some small overall buff, and some conditional option to do decent dps. I think three things could happen that would not _completely_ change the Ranger roll or balance.

1. Increase bow refire rates across the board (especially with short/recurve).
2. Buff the pure dmg attacks (power, marauding, etc), but not the degen/disrupts.
3. Create a new prep that does _good_ (ie better than GA) direct damage, but gets wiped on use of not just barrage, but also any interrupts (and possible any condition application). That way Rangers have the option to dmg while still holding on to their hallmark skills, but they couldn’t do everything at once.

«Ripskin · Aug 08, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifthen

There’s just no question that Ranger DPS sucks.

Most people that say hunters are fine say something along the lines of it would be OP if rangers could do ever good dps. With the new professions, Rangers being perma-slotted into degen or interrupt bots just doesn’t cut it. It’s one dimensional and particularly not fun.

Monks can smite like bananas if they chose to spec that way and focus less on heal/prot. Why do people have an issue with Rangers having the OPTION to dps?

Rangers don’t need a big boost. They need some small overall buff, and some conditional option to do decent dps. I think three things could happen that would not _completely_ change the Ranger roll or balance.

1. Increase bow refire rates across the board (especially with short/recurve).
2. Buff the pure dmg attacks (power, marauding, etc), but not the degen/disrupts.
3. Create a new prep that does _good_ (ie better than GA) direct damage, but gets wiped on use of not just barrage, but also any interrupts (and possible any condition application). That way Rangers have the option to dmg while still holding on to their hallmark skills, but they couldn’t do everything at once.

I coulda sworn I was just reading on the WoW guru..

ifthen · Aug 08, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I read like 2 pages of that dreck and gave up. If you are suggesting I lifted it, er no. If you are suggesting that it's an insightful, welcome solution echoed by others, then cheers to you.

moriz · Aug 09, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

your opinion of yourself is certainly high. sorry to burst your bubble, but your post is not that insightful.

before continuing to argue that bows are underpowered, please remember the underlying principle of GW: teamplay. not every class is supposed to pump out good DPS. there is always room for support characters. that's what the ranger (and the bow) is for.

if you are still not convinced, let me draw examples from another game. in lineage 2, bow damage is absolutely off the charts. its so high, that traditional melee characters will use them in pvp. obviously it won't happen in GW, but the point still stands: you cannot mix a class with excellent team support, interruption, and degen with a high damage ranged weapon.

Francis Demeules · Aug 09, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

The damage of the bow varies how high you are against a target and players still don't see it? You shoot far and have high damage but accuracy will drop instead... its fair enough. Boosting the damage of the bow is simple rediculous seriously in GW. Like Moriz said, its a team game. You want the damage, you need a teamwork, not by yourself.

Amy Awien · Aug 11, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

before continuing to argue that bows are underpowered, please remember the underlying principle of GW: teamplay. not every class is supposed to pump out good DPS. there is always room for support characters. that's what the ranger (and the bow) is for.

I suppose that is why you see so many Rangers in teams, man they're all over the place, PvP is completely dominated by teams with (at least) one or two Rangers and in every PvE outpost people are shouting GLF Ranger.

Try again. Rangers are rather rare, there must be a reason for it, and that is certainly not because they are so overpowered.

Evilsod · Aug 11, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

The damage of the bow varies how high you are against a target and players still don't see it? You shoot far and have high damage but accuracy will drop instead... its fair enough. Boosting the damage of the bow is simple rediculous seriously in GW. Like Moriz said, its a team game. You want the damage, you need a teamwork, not by yourself.

I must be missing something here... when did PvP maps actually have cliffs of a decent height? Terrain works against a Ranger almost all the time when it comes to PvP, groups either seek higher ground, hide behind walls or stay on bridges so the games useless RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up obstructions coding comes into action and everything misses. And what moron actually fights a Ranger willingly at the bottom of a huge hill anyway.

moriz · Aug 11, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I suppose that is why you see so many Rangers in teams, man they're all over the place, PvP is completely dominated by teams with (at least) one or two Rangers and in every PvE outpost people are shouting GLF Ranger.

Try again. Rangers are rather rare, there must be a reason for it, and that is certainly not because they are so overpowered.

vD's AT build always features a BA ranger. there are tons of top pvp guilds running rangers. just yesterday, i saw a single cripshot in top gvg dominate and turn the tide of the entire battle by interrupting key skills on 5 different targets. a few months ago, i saw eF run two rangers (BHA and cripshot, when it was still 15 energy too) and delivered some serious asskicking. and that's just a few of the examples.

instead of bemoaning the supposed lacking of the rangers, maybe you should... what's the phrase.... learn2play?

as for the reason why rangers are rare: people are stupid, and don't know how to play them. also, there are only 5 open spots on any gvg team (3 of them are taken up by monks and runner), so there's not always room for a ranger.

lastly, i never said they are overpowered. they are currently right where they should be. people should just play to their strengths (disruption, movement control, degen, being annoying, being hard to kill) and not force them to fulfill a role they are not designed for (as in straight up damage and spiking).