Curse

LightningHell · Dec 24, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Rereading the whole thread, I'm not bothered to edit the post I was going to edit.

The main problem now with your thought process, not your build, is that you say that this build is for "pressure", yet still assume that it can "spike". You can't have it both ways - and the way I (and apparently everybody else) sees it, it's a pretty bad spike. Then you apply the reverse to other damage dealers that aren't the case, and voila - you look better.

Why it's a bad spike? Face it, 5.25 seconds is a horribly long time for anybody to respond to. It being on a 8 second recharge means that you're either gimping yourself, or you're being horribly predictable. It being on a 8 second recharge also means it can't kill anything.

Yes, you're better off than a Warrior autoattacking, but I think we all made clear - and if we didn't Ensign surely did - that Warriors are capable of more than spamming damage on a recharge. It can exploit situations more effectively than this build can ever hope to.

It'll work in lower level environments if you can't do anything, but if - for lack of a better phrase - you have any skill with this game, then playing a more flexible damage dealer will outperform this build.\

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I do understand that. I however do not understand why you would take this over another character, say, a template Water elementalist with Shatterstone, or a Mind Blast ele.

Because it fulfills a different role to the traditional water ele, and just outperforms the mind blaster for pressure.

As you've recognized, a Mind Blaster does comparable DPS. A Mind Blaster also has an effectively bottomless energy pool.

A traditional Water ele would do somewhat less damage - read, somewhat less, not much - and provide plenty of utility.

Silk Weaver · Dec 24, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

MindBlast is easy to shut down, too, like any DPS ele, but it recovers much more effectively with a +30 set, whereas this gets shut down hard.

Warriors do get shut down hard, but it's actually easier to remove hexes than to lay hexes, unless you disable their anti hex mechanisms with things like sig of humility, or a mesmer/ranger honing down their anti-hex/monks.

Blind, Crip, Weakness, Hexes, are quite easy to remove compared to problems eles have. You can't "cure" pleak or pblock, OR diversion. There is nothing you can do. Wait 2 seconds and shadow of fear would be gone (not to mention they are a threat even hexed, since the enemy team might not have enough of a battlefield control to make sure that the hex stack won't be lifted suddenly and their backline wouldn't get spiked, so they need to watch him even if he's hexed.

But what can an ele do when he's interrupted, leaked, and so on? NOTHING. He's already lost his 15 energy spent casting, the skill is recharging, and he also lost an additional 20 or so energy from leak. What can he do? Nothing, unless you mean to BiP him.

Another Child · Dec 24, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

I would respond to both of the above comments but the first is largely nonsensical, particularly in light of what has been said by the poster previously, and the second I have already shown the flaws in several times.

LightningHell · Dec 24, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

My point is that you somehow think your little spike, if you can call it such, spikes and pressures properly simultaneously. It doesn't, really.

Which we all knew anyway, so there isn't really a point.

By the way, I missed a point:

Quote:

Keeping blind that is covered by burning off your teams rangers and warriors costs someone time and energy. That's easy enough for the naysayers to go test, feel free, I'm off to work.

Blind on a character you're trying to kill is pretty much inconsequential.

Ensign · Dec 24, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I find it very difficult to respond to many of your comments because it quite honestly feels like I am discussing builds with someone who does not actually play Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

As said, there's room here to throw your spells at any time, in any order

Realistically the character plays like he has two skills on his bar - Steam, which is excellent with the Glyph being pumped regularly for a good chunk of damage or a blind, and potentially both; and Shatterstone, which does excellent compressed pseudo-spikey damage. The rest of the skills on your bar are infrastructure or inconsequential; Glowing Ice is always used in conjunction with Shatterstone (otherwise it's pretty much trash), and Glowing Gaze is just kinda there.

When playing around with the original version of the bar you posted, the helpless feeling that came from only having two real skills on my bar was easily my biggest unexpected disappointment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

it's still a level of damage that needs to be reactively dealt with, by monks.

The idea that this character does something at all hasn't ever been in dispute. What is in dispute is whether this character does jobs that put it on the same level as other established archtypes - and it quite clearly does not. This is a build for scrubby, disorganized PvP where DPS casters are minimally acceptable. It has no place in serious, competitive play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

It takes over half a minute of power leaks to slow me down for a maximum of 20 seconds.

You have two skills on your bar that do anything. If someone Power Leaks your Shatterstone, your character does very little. If you are Power Leaked multiple times, your character does next to nothing until you have a baseline to try to Shatterstone again.

Wyat Hawke · Dec 24, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Look, if this build is actually better than a basic warrior, how come nobody uses THAT exact build in high-end PvP? Why haven't anyone jumped on this idea before? Is it because you are a genius, or because people have already tried similar builds and have found out that it's sub-par? You do state (at least, indirectly) that this should/would be better than a warrior.

It's not inherently bad, but as shown by cold, hard math, it is sub-par compared to the other stuff presented here. Please, give us some more evidence if we are to believe that the high-end PvP population of GW have been playing the wrong skill bars for over 2 years.... It isn't LightningHell's job to argue why your build is bad, it is your job to try and convince us (the general public) that your build is better than the other ones.

Another Child · Dec 24, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Realistically the character plays like he has two skills on his bar - Steam, which is excellent with the Glyph being pumped regularly for a good chunk of damage or a blind, and potentially both; and Shatterstone, which does excellent compressed pseudo-spikey damage. The rest of the skills on your bar are infrastructure or inconsequential; Glowing Ice is always used in conjunction with Shatterstone (otherwise it's pretty much trash), and Glowing Gaze is just kinda there.

I find it interesting that you would say that, being that you are someone who seems to devote quite a bit of time to guild wars. Interesting because the spells with the big numbers are the ones that jump out at you, while the one that is actually hurting people is 'inconsequential'. Glyph of immolation has more effect on an opponents health bar than steam in this setup, and it requires means to apply it. The means I chose are minor DD/energy recovery spells so I can keep applying it for a very long time, while adding to it's impact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

When playing around with the original version of the bar you posted, the helpless feeling that came from only having two real skills on my bar was easily my biggest unexpected disappointment.

What you are saying is that things like frenzy are not 'real skills'. Unless you see an immediate large number, that's not a real skill? I guess we can discount warrior auto attacks, since they do around 35 damage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The idea that this character does something at all hasn't ever been in dispute. What is in dispute is whether this character does jobs that put it on the same level as other established archtypes - and it quite clearly does not. This is a build for scrubby, disorganized PvP where DPS casters are minimally acceptable. It has no place in serious, competitive play.

Your bias is showing. Just thought you might like to know. In any GvG match, warriors spend more time running between targets than hitting them. I don't come around trying to say that makes them worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You have two skills on your bar that do anything. If someone Power Leaks your Shatterstone, your character does very little. If you are Power Leaked multiple times, your character does next to nothing until you have a baseline to try to Shatterstone again.

If I am being actively hated, then yes, my damage will reduce, it's hardly a revelation. In fact, if my shatterstone is interrupted, then for 11 seconds, my pressure drops to the same level as a warrior who isn't free to frenzy, because, amazingly, my elite dd is actually a large part of my damage base. You don't see two big 105s so you assume you aren't doing damage, but your target is still on fire the entire time.

Again, a high energy set ignores multiple pleaks because of the regen the build has. Did you try weapon switching? 0 energy - high energy set - shatterstone - glowing ice - 40/40 set. 0 energy - high energy set - glyph - steam - gaze - 40/40 set. You lose some regen while casting, enough that you no longer actually gain energy while dealing damage, so you may choose to slow down a while to get out of the hole, and I usually do, sticking to a pair of glyphed gazes to dig myself out a little, otherwise you find yourself in a position where you need to actually stop for a while, such as when it comes time to reapply your attune.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 24, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Your bias is showing. Just thought you might like to know. In any GvG match, warriors spend more time running between targets than hitting them. I don't come around trying to say that makes them worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I do not feel that this thread is fundamentally about damage. It is about threat, about battlefield presence. It is about the differences between a high and low priority target that creates threat through his ability to deal damage and kill opponents. Now obviously not all threat comes from damage. For example a properly specced and played Mesmer is an incredibly high threat character because of the havoc he wrecks in a backline through disruption and shutdown. Hell, sometimes he's the highest value target on the field because of it. But Warriors and Elementalists don't work that way, they are threatening because of their ability to deal damage. The thing about damage as threat, though, and this is the key I think, is that the threat doesn't get diminished significantly even if damage is mitigated.

In reality a Warrior will have a lot of his damage mitigated. An unmitigated Warrior with a couple of attack skills can pump out close to 3000 damage per minute, and you'd be a fool if you let him do that. So you mitigate his damage. You use snares to limit his mobility and kite away when he gets close. When he does close you use Guardian and other protective effects upon whoever he's attacking to mitigate even more of his damage. Maybe you'll set traps in the back and force him to run through them, or have a Blinding Flash guy babysitting him. With proper attention a Warrior can be reduced to a shadow of himself, perhaps only kicking out 800 damage in a minute on whomever he can get a blow in on.

On the other side of the equation you have something like an Offering of Blood powered blood nuker. He can cycle Dark Pact and Vampiric Gaze upon the other team all day and there's very little they can do about it - the skills are non-trivial to interrupt, the packet size is small, and each attack ignores a lot of defenses (or all defenses in the case of Vampiric Gaze). Because of the short cooldowns and the energy provided by Offering of Blood, this character can dish out around 1200 defense ignoring autohit damage every minute.

Side by side you look at the Warrior dishing out 800 damage and the Necro dealing 1200 and you conclude that the Necromancer was more effective, right? After all he dealt 50% more damage, that's a lot better!

Dead wrong.

The difference is that while the Warrior only dealt 800 actual damage, the extra 2000 damage that wasn't dealt to HP went directly into the other team's attention, energy, and skill usage. It is not a trivial job to constantly pre-kite the Warriors to keep them from getting hits in, especially if there are multiples operating independently. But being forced to kite can be incredibly disruptive. Sure your energy continues to regenerate, but you aren't casting, and every time you stop to cast you have to balance that against the hits you're going to take from doing so. Sure it's an effective way to mitigate some damage, but it's not free by any means. Following a Warrior around with Guardian and maintaining that on his target requires a good amount of attention and is not cheap by any means. It will stop a good amount of damage and frustrate the Warrior but it's still energy that isn't going to be spent healing. Snaring or Blinding the Warrior work on similar principles, it's damage that isn't dealt but it's time and energy that has to be spent to control that damage. Aegis isn't attention intensive but it chews up a lot of energy. Etc, etc, etc. The net effect of all this is that while the Warrior only does a fraction of his damage potential, the amount of trouble he caused his opponent is a whole lot higher. Why? Because of the threat he posed if they didn't address him. In short, the damage he dealt might have been mitigated, but *the threat, largely, was not*.

The Necromancer on the other hand deals more raw damage but isn't threatening. There isn't a lot that the opponent can do about it, but there isn't any need to. They can easily keep up with that damage with normal healing. This theoretical Necromancer, in short, is not scary. He might deal his damage while another guy gets shut down but he doesn't provoke any sort of reaction from the opponent. He doesn't force them to change their gameplan, or expend time and energy on things they otherwise wouldn't want to. Or, in short, he just doesn't matter.

I started to explain this, then decided it was easier to steal a post from Ensign and save my time.

Ensign · Dec 24, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Interesting because the spells with the big numbers are the ones that jump out at you

The skills that let me make plays jump out at me. What plays do any other skill on that bar allow me to make?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Unless you see an immediate large number, that's not a real skill?

You can typically categorize skills in one of two ways, those that let you make plays, and those that prop up the rest of the bar. Well there's a third category that you can generally sum up as 'bad', but I don't think about that one.

I'm mostly interested in playmaking skills, those that pose some sort of real problem for an opponent. As I said, your bar has two (three with the ressig), and *five* infrastructure skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Your bias is showing. Just thought you might like to know.

Yes. That's what it is. Bias. It couldn't possibly because you are wrong, and running around with 'my build is so great' blinders on. I'm just biased.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Again, a high energy set ignores multiple pleaks because of the regen the build has.

The reason PLeak is so good is because of its ability to clear out a high set.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Dec 24, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Pwr Block>>>>>Eles Energy pool no matter how large.

Hyprodimus Prime · Dec 25, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

One more thing....why do people keep talking about Power Block? I NEVER see it in HA, RA, TA, AB (and only once or twice in a GvG Observation). Do I pick the wrong games to watch? Am I on at the wrong time? I dont play mesmer, but I know a decent part of the game. To me, PB is risky. Am I missing something?

Stormlord Alex · Dec 25, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

One more thing....why do people keep talking about Power Block?

Because people are silly.

Div · Dec 25, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Did you try weapon switching? 0 energy - high energy set - shatterstone - glowing ice - 40/40 set. 0 energy - high energy set - glyph - steam - gaze - 40/40 set.

Yes I've tried weapon swapping. But I usually go from high set to shield set. Since I won't be casting, there's no point sitting on a 40/40, unless you enjoy getting hit for more damage or exposing that extra 7 energy when it regens. If you're trying to criticize someone else's knowledge (or lack thereof), at least make good arguments yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Again, a high energy set ignores multiple pleaks because of the regen the build has.

Ever been pleaked on a high set? I have, and it sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Your bias is showing.

If by bias you mean biased against bad skills, then yes. I generally dislike having a bad bar and I'll inevitably be biased against it.

I read 1-2 of your posts and concluded you are bad. For the sake of not confusing new players, stop posting.

iridescentfyre · Dec 25, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyat Hawke

Look, if this build is actually better than a basic warrior, how come nobody uses THAT exact build in high-end PvP? Why haven't anyone jumped on this idea before? Is it because you are a genius, or because people have already tried similar builds and have found out that it's sub-par? You do state (at least, indirectly) that this should/would be better than a warrior.

It's not inherently bad, but as shown by cold, hard math, it is sub-par compared to the other stuff presented here. Please, give us some more evidence if we are to believe that the high-end PvP population of GW have been playing the wrong skill bars for over 2 years.... It isn't LightningHell's job to argue why your build is bad, it is your job to try and convince us (the general public) that your build is better than the other ones.

QFT. This post wins the thread.

LightningHell · Dec 25, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Because people are silly.

Silk loves pblock. Don't ask why.

I don't think anybody has a need to post after Ensign arrived in the thread.

If Ensign is too intelligent for anybody, I'll generalize and sum it up as: It deals damage on-par with a Warrior. But a Warrior kills stuff and this doesn't.

Another Child · Dec 27, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Seems like someone found a use for the idea after all.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:E/...tterstone_Gank

This was a constructive discussion. Thanks for the positive feedback.

Tyla · Dec 27, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Any need to res a year-old thread to post a "version" of your build that is actually good?

Another Child · Dec 28, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Any need to res a year-old thread to post a "version" of your build that is actually good?

Just found it amusing when I saw it up there with a decent rating, with guilds running multiples in tournaments, considering the consensus here was that the whole concept was flawed. Bye now.

daze · Dec 28, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tab

Wow. There's copious amounts of fail in this thread.

I second that notion. Im actually shocked how some of the more notorious GW Flamers haven't eaten this thread up. Especially when people keep saying that warriors dont do more DPS than casters.

1: Warriors do more damage per second than casters. Period. (especially water eles)

2: melee is much easier to shutdown or protect against than casters (blind vs dazed is the most basic example) Blind is everywhere and almost any profession can cause/spam it. Daze is still pretty rare of a condition compared to blind. Then of course you have the extremely common [[aegis]. I mean seriously, when i pve and pvp i always target the casters first while kiting any excessive melee.
And It seems that only mesmers have the rep of being able to effectively shutdown casters while every other profession has skills to save against melee. Rangers are second on that list then dazer sins which are rare. But mesmers mostly.

3: Water eles and DPS should not be in the same sentence together. (even [[shatterstone] which is a half assed damage skill that is a waste of an elite slot IMO. Water eles should really only talk about utility/snares ([[blurred vision], [[deep freeze], [[maelstrom] should be the core water skills) If i were going to spike with an ele id go air [lightning surge][lightning hammer] for the armor penetration or even fire [incendiary bonds][rodgorts invocation] so i could save my elite skill for something more useful.

4: lol seriously? is [[aura of [email protected]] really worth the 10-25hp heals? at 3 spec to energy management [[arua of restoration] is even crappier than usual. And with such a shallow energy pool, i dont see how you can hold up energy wise. That build is like a 3 legged table (not very sturdy). I guess it will stand up as long as the enemy doesnt have enchantment removal, hex removal, or condition removal.

1. [Glyph of [email protected]] (Fire 13)
2. [[email protected]] {Elite} (Water 16)
3. [Glowing [email protected]] (Water 16)
4. [[email protected]] (Water 16)
5. [Glowing [email protected]] (Fire 13)
6. [Water [email protected]] (Water 16)
7. [Aura of [email protected]] (Energy Storage 3)
8. [no skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

While it is fairly effective on the build, equalling about 3 pips of health regen when you aren't being interrupted,

I lol'ed. 3 pips of HP regen is effective eh? There is another skill that offers constant 3 pips of regen, its called [[email protected]]
Dude even if you threw in [mystic [email protected]] you could get 9 pips of regen, or if you spec it at 3 you can get 6 pips.

[master of [email protected]][fire [email protected]][water [email protected]][aura of [email protected]][meteor [email protected]][deep [email protected]][[email protected]][churning [email protected]] There, hows that for DPS (BTW This is a joke build, but still applies more "pressure" than OP build)

And on a side note, you should really learn how to use the [edit] button to avoid double posting.

moriz · Dec 28, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Just found it amusing when I saw it up there with a decent rating, with guilds running multiples in tournaments, considering the consensus here was that the whole concept was flawed. Bye now.

apples and oranges. the build you posted is infinitely worse, what's with all the superficial fluff you insisted that it needed. the build you linked to, the one that you claim is a "version" of your build, serves an entirely different purpose.

your build claims to provide team DPS, the one you linked to is a ganker meant for taking out NPCs and run flags. the only thing in common between your bad build and the one you've linked is that both run on water magic. beyond that, everything is different.

you might be amused by the supposed similarities. most of us are amused that you can't seem to see the vast differences.