Curse

Stormlord Alex · Dec 22, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Oh I thought you used executioners. No, without any skills, warrior dps is about 20. Which is more than a caster not using skills. Never would've guessed that.

And using only 3 skills - one of them really quite bad - my dps was higher than your entire build.
... oki?

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I don't see Augury, so that doesn't count. So you're implying without Augury, you're doing 495 damage.

Explain. You have 105 (0 seconds)+53 (1 second)+104 (1 second)+44 (1 second)+Burning for 4 seconds (42/3, or 56/4) (DPS over time). That equals 350 damage over 3 seconds, or 364 over 4. Hardly the 495 you said.

Note that using a Superior, you'll probably need more saving than the Warrior, while the Warrior is still draining opponent resources. While this Elementalist deals more "damage" to the opponent, the rest of the damage that would be dealt by a Warrior is mitigated by other factors - shutdown, kiting, whatnot. All this requires active effort by the opposition. In contrast, the Elementalist isn't really much of a threat in an organized environment, and although it's harder to defend against, nobody really cares.

You joke. An Axe warrior's DPS with an IAS on is 40, with a superior rune. Granted, this is a bit risky, but then you're a caster who's running a sup rune.

Yup fixed that, counted DW 2x

However, as stated, this deals more damage than a warrior, period. If the warrior has a permanent IAS, he can just keep up against targets who stand still and don't block.

You realize are trying to argue that because it takes effort for someone to nullify your damage, that is somehow better and more threatening than damage that is more difficult to nullify, because they don't have to expend the effort, they just get to sit there and take it?

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

And using only 3 skills - one of them really quite bad - my dps was higher than your entire build.
... oki?

3 skills compared to 5? Again, the damage is easily countered by say, a moving target, or say, getting hit with frenzy on. I know it's hard for you to understand that other classes can apply sustained pressure, but well, facts are there.

Stormlord Alex · Dec 22, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

3 skills compared to 5? Again, the damage is easily countered by say, a moving target, or say, getting hit with frenzy on. I know it's hard for you to understand that other classes can apply sustained pressure, but well, facts are there.

The fact is, though, caster pressure is laughable. It's easily countered, too.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The fact is, though, caster pressure is laughable. It's easily countered, too.

Yet it's higher than warrior pressure on this build, and less easily countered than warrior pressure, and does in fact come with minor utility unlike a warrior who takes about 6 skill slots from his team plus his own 8 just to be able to apply that pressure. Warriors are good pressure, so is this. If you weren't so blinkered you might actually try to assess what it is capable of, rather than 'oh shatterstone, bad spike, let's flame'.

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

However you are trying to argue that because it takes effort for someone to nullify your damage, that is somehow better and more threatening than damage that is more difficult to nullify.

Okay.

Let's see - Your build has a literal 8 second recharge on it. I'm being generous here, as this is counting spamming on recharge, which is probably something that's not very achievable - finding opportune targets is difficult, especially for your build which does not kill a person from at least 85%, and that if you're spamming on recharge you're incredibly predictable. It does 364 damage per 8 seconds, which is 45.5 DPS. As a spike, it's not very threatening, due to it not being able to kill a character alone, and that a 3 second spike is way too easy to prot against. Hence, opponents in organized teams are going to ignore it. It has basically no threat. Besides, it's not like a Diversion or DShot won't throw your whole thing off, and your character is very inflexible, but let's put that aside for now.

The Warrior, however, is a constant threat. As long as he's there, they need to shut him down, or they're going to get pummelled. So he might deal, say 20 DPS, but the opponent is expending resources and time to prevent the Warrior from achieving his natural 40 DPS. The Warrior also has a spike outside of his main DPS engine, which requires more protting and defending against. A Warrior can also bring disruption and other miscellaneous utility.

That 40 DPS is not counting skills.

Stormlord Alex · Dec 22, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

Yet it's higher than warrior pressure on this build

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't 49 a bigger number than 48?

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't 49 a bigger number than 48?

You're saying you permafrenzy?

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Actually, the numbers are higher than I thought. You're correct in that it's 455/469 damage in 3/4 seconds (which still makes me wonder where did 495 come from). However, my point still stands.

Edit: People frenzy when one is allowed to. Just like how an elementalist would cast spells as one would allow.

Surely you're not going to cast your chain when you're getting hit by a tree?

Stormlord Alex · Dec 22, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

You're saying you permafrenzy?

And you're saying you never get camped by a ranger or mes?
You're trying to compare the crappy 3-skill warrior when he's not able to perma-frenzy, or is getting kited, blinded, etc.

Might I ask... How much damage do you do if any mesmer worth his salt is kicking around, or if the enemy happens to have RoF/PS?

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Might I ask... How much damage do you do if any mesmer worth his salt is kicking around, or if the enemy happens to have RoF/PS?

This partly ties into the problem of threat. Without a single skill (via Diversion, DShot, Magebane, whatnot), your character is virtually useless. A Warrior still provides quite a positional, if not anything else, threat, even when hexed or whatnot.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Okay.

Let's see - Your build has a literal 8 second recharge on it. I'm being generous here, as this is counting spamming on recharge, which is probably something that's not very achievable - finding opportune targets is difficult, especially for your build which does not kill a person from at least 85%, and that if you're spamming on recharge you're incredibly predictable. It does 364 damage per 8 seconds, which is 45.5 DPS. As a spike, it's not very threatening, due to it not being able to kill a character alone, and that a 3 second spike is way too easy to prot against. Hence, opponents in organized teams are going to ignore it. It has basically no threat. Besides, it's not like a Diversion or DShot won't throw your whole thing off, and your character is very inflexible, but let's put that aside for now.

The Warrior, however, is a constant threat. As long as he's there, they need to shut him down, or they're going to get pummelled. So he might deal, say 20 DPS, but the opponent is expending resources and time to prevent the Warrior from achieving his natural 40 DPS. The Warrior also has a spike outside of his main DPS engine, which requires more protting and defending against. A Warrior can also bring disruption and other miscellaneous utility.

That 40 DPS is not counting skills.

As I said, warriors bring other goodies. However the damage is easily nullified. If someone wants to nullify this guys damage, they are going to be using abilities that they don't want recharging when a spike is actually called.

Pyro maniac · Dec 22, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Just face it, warriors are better in damage

if you want to make a water ele, the strenght comes in shutting down with either blurred vision (block) or slow-down (kite)
Shatterstone is just there to help with a spike, but don't pump your bar with damage spells. it isn't needed, warriors are better at it.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

And you're saying you never get camped by a ranger or mes?
You're trying to compare the crappy 3-skill warrior when he's not able to perma-frenzy, or is getting kited, blinded, etc.

Might I ask... How much damage do you do if any mesmer worth his salt is kicking around, or if the enemy happens to have RoF/PS?

How much damage do you do when you are hexed out the rear, snared, and blinded? What's the difference?

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

Just face it, warriors are better in damage

if you want to make a water ele, the strenght comes in shutting down with either blurred vision (block) or slow-down (kite)
Shatterstone is just there to help with a spike, but don't pump your bar with damage spells. it isn't needed, warriors are better at it.

I never had someone yell 'WOW WTF' when I was playing my warrior or thumper. I guess that makes me biased.

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

As I said, warriors bring other goodies. However the damage is easily nullified. If someone wants to nullify this guys damage, they are going to be using abilities that they don't want recharging when a spike is actually called.

Oh, so casting Diversion somehow makes my Spirit Bond get disabled.

My bad.

Quote:

How much damage do you do when you are hexed out the rear, snared, and blinded? What's the difference?

The difference is that the opposition has to maintain it, and remember that Blind is easily removed in skirmish situations via Mending Touch, if there is no backline support.

If you are hexed out the rear and snared, as I said, you still provide quite a positional threat.

Quote:

I never had someone yell 'WOW WTF' when I was playing my warrior or thumper. I guess that makes me biased.

I certainly wouldn't yell "WOW WTF" at your build.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The difference is that the opposition has to maintain it, and remember that Blind is easily removed in skirmish situations via Mending Touch, if there is no backline support.

How is maintaining a hex any different from maintaining a shutdown? They're both fire and forget. The hex can be removed, while the shutdown needs to hit something critical, they both have their drawbacks.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Anyway, this thread appears to be full of reactionaries who would rather stick with what they think is correct than actually assess what a build is capable of. I had heard this about guru so I can't say I wasn't warned.

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

How is maintaining a hex any different from maintaining a shutdown? They're both fire and forget. The hex can be removed, while the shutdown needs to hit something critical, they both have their drawbacks.

If a Mesmer that can count casts a Diversion on you, you're basically losing your spike for the 6 seconds additional, or you're going to lose your spike for the next minute. A Ranger could interrupt that with one hand down his pants, especially with such a long chain.

While blind needs to be maintained, hexes don't need to be maintained as much but still do?

And if you don't understand that a Warrior is a much more flexible threat than any caster will be, you apparently need to learn more, since that is one of the basics of GW PvP strategy/tactics - one might even classify it as basic game mechanics.

Quote:

Anyway, this thread appears to be full of reactionaries who would rather stick with what they think is correct than actually assess what a build is capable of. I had heard this about guru so I can't say I wasn't warned.

I'm sorry, but we opt for effectiveness. If it's not fully effective, we will point it out. If you can't accept criticism, get the hell out of here.

Stormlord Alex · Dec 22, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

And if you don't understand that a Warrior is a much more flexible threat than any caster will be, you apparently need to learn more, since that is one of the basics of GW PvP strategy/tactics - one might even classify it as basic game mechanics.

QFT.
Warrior > your face.
As it always was, is and ever shall be.