Curse

Inferno Link · May 05, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

First off, I would like to state that I know ether renewal infuse healers are pretty damn good but I don't have an ele.

People have been talking about how monking should be left to monk primaries because they are best suited for it. On the contrary though, people talk about how necros do a pretty good job of monking with soul reaping and signet of lost souls.

I have both a necro and a monk and I want to vanquish Nightfall with one of them while I am monking/keeping red bars go up so I need input on what is often the better monk.

Thanks.

zelgadissan · May 05, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

My personal opinion - if you like monk skills, go ele or monk - if you don't have an ele, monk. The reason for monk over necro is because the healing power of most monk skills also assumes an approximate ~30 Divine Favor bonus, and prots > heals, especially in Hard Mode (exception of ER ele). Necros can use monk skills too, but don't underestimate the power of getting a small heal when using Protective Spirit.

Now if you just want to redbar and not necessarily prot/use monk skills, go N/Rt. Restoration Magic heals were never designed with Divine Favor, so they can be very, very strong (i.e. [[Mend Body and [email protected]] and especially [[Spirit [email protected]]), and with Soul Reaping, if you run out of energy your party sucks.

glacialphoenix · May 05, 2009, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

snip

Having tried both, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. (My tendency now is to wish I had prot when I'm on my N/Rt, and wish I had Kaolai on my monk. The end result is that I end up manualling monk or n/rt healer heroes a lot. ><)

Xenomortis · May 05, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

If you're not concerned with having an enchantment dependant support character, an [Ether Renewal (PVE)] healer+protter is absurdly powerful.

There will be times when you just cannot depend on an enchantment for insane energy management (and health for Infuse). In those times, a Necro can do a good job with Rit heals and the small prots offered by the rit profession.
Bit harder for a necromancer to take advantage of the monk protection line like an ele can, but it can be done.

Of course, a monk can do their own job well enough, but they do have energy issues. They cannot spam the expensive and powerful prots enough and lots of healing carries a price.

Archress Shayleigh · May 05, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

For a healer? Try N/Rt Discordway healer. Use 3 discord heroes plus you. Awesome damage and great for VQing.

Yichi · May 06, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

which profession play a monk the best... a monk

Xenomortis · May 06, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

which profession play a monk the best... a monk

I like the way that statement has absolutely no reasoning behind it.

Zahr Dalsk · May 06, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I'm bothered by how N/Rt is proposed but Rt isn't.

Soul Reaping bothers me a lot for this reason, and I'd love to see it nerfed.

How about this?

For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 4% of an Energy point whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies.

Then they're even with the profession whose skills they're using, and Soul Reaping becomes about as useful as Spawning Power.

/short rant over

Xenomortis · May 06, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

The Rit isn't suggested for a similar reason the Monk is being rejected. They both have poor energy management. The rit has some, but it requires the use of dedicated skills and isn't as effective as Soul Reaping or as powerful as Ether Renewal.
Rit heals also don't require a rank of 15/16 to be effective, 12 is enough.

It's a shame that the Rit primary att is almost useless.

Zahr Dalsk · May 06, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The Rit isn't suggested for a similar reason the Monk is being rejected. They both have poor energy management. The rit has some, but it requires the use of dedicated skills and isn't as effective as Soul Reaping or as powerful as Ether Renewal.

That's why SR and ER ought to be nerfed... because they're putting classes that shouldn't be in the business of healing or protection... into the business of healing and protection.

Xenomortis · May 06, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Ether Renewal is what makes elementalists good in HM. Without it, they're left with the Earth Magic line for some utility and Air Magic for some blind. ER doesn't seem to put monks out of business though.

Soul Reaping... I don't know were I stand here. The issue is less that SR needs nerfing as it is other primaries need buffing (well, Spawning Power does). Monks can still do thing more reliably than eles can. An elementalist is dependant on a single enchantment.

Zahr Dalsk · May 06, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Ether Renewal is what makes elementalists good in HM. Without it, they're left with the Earth Magic line for some utility and Air Magic for some blind. ER doesn't seem to put monks out of business though.

Then that's a problem with the Fire and Water skill lines which ought to be looked at, if Elementalists are depending on a single gimmicky game mechanic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The issue is less that SR needs nerfing as it is other primaries need buffing (well, Spawning Power does).

I'd be happy with either, really. Granted I'd actually prefer having Spawning Power made worthwhile, but failing that I'd love to see Soul reaping nerfed.

glacialphoenix · May 07, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

I'm bothered by how N/Rt is proposed but Rt isn't.

OP can't decide between necro or monk - that's why I proposed N/Rt in the first place.

zelgadissan · May 07, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Soul Reaping should not trigger on minions. They have no souls to reap. That change alone would put Soul Reaping back to a level met by almost all other primaries. Spawning would still need a look-see.

That said, I stand by my original post.

Chthon · May 07, 2009, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Ether Renewal is what makes elementalists good in HM. Without it, they're left with the Earth Magic line for some utility and Air Magic for some blind. ER doesn't seem to put monks out of business though.

1. ER should put monks out of business.

2. Ele's don't even have blind really. An EC mesmer does blind sooo much better that I'd never bring an ele for that role.

Quote:

If you're not concerned with having an enchantment dependant support character, an [Ether Renewal (PVE)] healer+protter is absurdly powerful.

That's very rarely a concern. Players should know how to cover their ER. Heroes usually manage to do it by accident. Only zones with deep, deep stripping or stupid zone-wide effects pose a problem.

Quote:

Of course, a monk can do their own job well enough, but they do have energy issues. They cannot spam the expensive and powerful prots enough and lots of healing carries a price.

The "solution" to monks' energy problems is AP-SelflessSpirit. That at least puts you in the ballpark for being able to spam PS and strong heals as much as you need/want. The downside is that you become incredibly dependent on hitting AP, which is far more tenuous than being dependent on covering ER.

Quote:

Soul Reaping... I don't know were I stand here. The issue is less that SR needs nerfing as it is other primaries need buffing (well, Spawning Power does). Monks can still do thing more reliably than eles can. An elementalist is dependant on a single enchantment.

1. The question is not "SR vs. primary-attribute-X"; it's "necro vs. class-X." Necros are very much like rangers in that they got a very good e-management primary coupled with badly overpriced skills, for little net gain. SR doesn't get problematic until you start pairing it with not-overpriced skills from a secondary profession. (Also, I might add that Car's silly Me/Rt demonstration shows that a very, very big part of the N/Rt problem is that the resto heals are overpowered on anything with more e-management than a rit.) "Solving" the SR problem by an across-the-board nerf is a bad, bad idea that's going to break necros-as-necros as the price for fixing N/Rt and such. If necro secondary abuse bothers you, the solution has to relate specifically to limiting the effectiveness of secondaries.

2. ER killed SR. ANything you could abuse with SR, you can abuse better with ER. There's no point in N/Rt or any other sort of N/X secondary abuser, since E/X does it bette rnow.

3. As I've said at great length elsewhere, the biggest problem with SR (far, far bigger than any overpoweredness issues) is the timer. It's got clunkiness problems. It's got unintuitiveness problems. It punishes good play. (After a certain point, you actually get **less** energy back when you kill more quickly than if you killed slower -- not the same, **less**..) Its severe randomness deters thinking ahead and intelligently planning your energy consumption.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 07, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I like the way that statement has absolutely no reasoning behind it.

Well he's right, if OP had asked for the best healer then he would be wrong.

Yichi · May 07, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I like the way that statement has absolutely no reasoning behind it.

The question proposed was which profession plays monk the best. It is a monk, so that statement is correct. Had the question been asked as to which is the most efficient healer, than that statement has a whole assload of gray areas.

Paul Dawg · May 07, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

We kinda need to specify whether we're talking about PvP or PvE--and also whether we're talking about humans or heroes.

I've never really heard people complain too much about human monks, especially not ones who know what they're doing. It's monk HEROES (especially poorly conceived ones) who sometimes crap the bed.

Now there are lotsa good monk hero builds that you can find easily enough, but if we're talking about PvE and heroes, the real answer is ... why wouldn't you want more than one healer with different styles? Like N/Rt resto and [word of healing] monk? They heal in different ways and go nicely together in a party. In other words, it's kinda pointless to ask for "the best" healing build when your party will probably need more than one healer anyway.