Curse

faraaz · Jan 18, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

So [Shadow Form] is srs bsness

That didnt answer my question.

Picuso · Jan 18, 2009, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Yeah, it did.

Because your "optimal" team is a CryWay/RojWay/ W/eWay with SF Tank. But there are zones where a Hundred Blades / Earthshaker warrior is needed/useful.

Anything we say, you will answer with "Cryway is faster". But that =/= Warriors useless.

faraaz · Jan 18, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

Yeah, it did.
But there are zones where a Hundred Blades / Earthshaker warrior is needed/useful.

But not crucial and/or can be replaced.

Quote:

Anything we say, you will answer with "Cryway is faster". But that =/= Warriors useless.

So you agree that warriors are slower, non-essential alternatives.

Thank you for proving my point.

moriz · Jan 19, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Orly? Name one thing Warriors can do atm in PvE that hasn't been nerfed to oblivion, or is considerably slower than the optimal (team) build for it at the time.

beating the game.

bungusmaximus · Jan 19, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

lol faraaz is baed, there's this thing called Dragon Slash/Save Yourselves that rapes PvE, assassins can ofc take Save Yourselves too. Earth shaker also rapes PvE, assassins can't do AoE knockdown. When a sin attack gets interrupted they can't finish their chain, while a warrior does decent damage auto-attacking. OK, sins can wield scythes, but so can warriors thanks to Warrior's Endurance.

Everything isn't crucial and can be replaced when I think with faraaz's mindset, but warrior's aren't inferior to sins in PvE in any way.

faraaz · Jan 19, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

beating the game.

Any class can do that, doesnt mean its good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

lol faraaz is baed, there's this thing called Dragon Slash/Save Yourselves that rapes PvE, assassins can ofc take Save Yourselves too. Earth shaker also rapes PvE, assassins can't do AoE knockdown. When a sin attack gets interrupted they can't finish their chain, while a warrior does decent damage auto-attacking. OK, sins can wield scythes, but so can warriors thanks to Warrior's Endurance.

Everything isn't crucial and can be replaced when I think with faraaz's mindset, but warrior's aren't inferior to sins in PvE in any way.

Sins have crit strikes which on average makes them do tons more damage than warriors with WE + Strength, there's threads about it on Guru somewhere, I'm too lazy to search 'em out, but I'm sure you have read the same ones I have.

As for Dragon Slash/SY!, if you absolutely need SY to beat GW, you are "baed"er than I ever could be.

And finally, here's the thing: I wasnt talking about BEATING the stupid game. A mesmer with a blank skill bar wanding crap can get through it easy. I was talking about the use of the profession outside of regular missions (which anything and anyone can do), such as farms, speed clears, running (I'd like to see a Warrior run Grotto through Icedome) etc etc etc.

Warriors used to be good at this before Anet went and buffed Shadow Form. Whether that was a good decision or a bad decision, really isnt the point. The point is that Warriors now are relegated to a (imo) non-essential role, whereas earlier they were the stars of any GW Party earlier (a fact borne out by the number of ppl who've been playing since 2005 who have made their Warrior's their mains).

Again, I am not discussing the competency of a Warrior in regular PvE missions. If you refer my earlier posts, you will see that I said they arent good for anything BUT that. So stop repeating what I said.

One can only hope that people actually read what I say instead of spamming 4chan BS at me.

bungusmaximus · Jan 19, 2009, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Oh excuse me, some ppl just play the frigging game lol. Of course sins are the king of farming and running, but GW is a team game, and when you ask me how strong a profession is in a team, I'd say that depends on the teambuild.

I never use SY by the way, SY bars are boring.

moriz · Jan 19, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Again, I am not discussing the competency of a Warrior in regular PvE missions. If you refer my earlier posts, you will see that I said they arent good for anything BUT that. So stop repeating what I said.

well then, feel free to tell every top 20 guild to stop running their warriors and run the oh-so-awesome assassin in their spot. or, you can try to win a monthly with assassin-based offense.

until you do, please stop spewing your shit.

Tyla · Jan 19, 2009, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Orly? Name one thing Warriors can do atm in PvE that hasn't been nerfed to oblivion, or is considerably slower than the optimal (team) build for it at the time.

Either you're a complete idiot or this was a joke.

Warriors haven't been nerfed if memory serves, they only got stronger - prove me wrong. Warriors' Endurance proves massive spammability of Power Attack and other energy attacks, notably the IAS attacks. Primal Rage allows a mix of IAS / IMS (only you'd want this at times when you've got people kiting on a regular basis). Dragon Slash allows huge DPS and spammability of adrenaline skills.

Assassins stand as the second choice in terms of when you need to have some massive condition removal, apart from that, Power Attack wins out. If you play Cryway or a Tank'n'Spank based team, they are also the optimum choice due to the flexibility of Shadow Form which also gives near-invincibility and keeps the mobility, while only taking 2-3 skill slots.

Dervs stand as the second choice in terms of when you have to have some massive hex removal, apart from that, Power Attack wins out. Owait, I repeated.

Now, stop bumming your Cryway and make a contribution to this discussion other than "LOL TAEK SIN CUZ CRYWAI WORIORZ SUK". Sure, Cryway is powerful, but there are other alternatives (surpising, isn't it?) for other types of playstyles! Just because you're too ignorant to explore or even respect the other forms of playstyles - if you're against certain characteristics because of X type of skill or Y tactic, argue against it if you wish, but don't bring up your "lol dat sux" or junk.

Also,

Quote:

Sins have crit strikes which on average makes them do tons more damage than warriors with WE + Strength, there's threads about it on Guru somewhere, I'm too lazy to search 'em out, but I'm sure you have read the same ones I have.

[power attack] + IAS attacks + Warriors' Endurance.

Most elites on the Scythesin aren't "enticing" enough at all, so it rarely makes a difference.

Quote:

As for Dragon Slash/SY!, if you absolutely need SY to beat GW, you are "baed"er than I ever could be.

I found this funny, because you're talking about being "optimum" then you say that if you need "SY!" you're bad at the game - it's something you can use to compress bar space so you can take more offense, the same way that a Shadow Form Assassin would do it so their team mates can bring more offense and he can bring more offense.

legacyofkain85 · Jan 19, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatelord

my understanding is warrior is better for PVE while assassin is better for PVP ..

I have a LV 20 warrior in factions ..and i deal crap for damage ..was wondering if i should go with an assassin instead ..

i belive is the other way around u see more warriors in pvp than assassins (o well u see more now cough,[palm strike])also u might want to check pvxwiki or the warrior thread about builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatelord

If i take out endure pain i will be dying every three seconds the enemies at the kaining center do obscene damage ...

Axes might be a better idea untill i get dragon slash i guess ..

u shouldnt need [endure pain] ,tbh i use it sometimes in hm while h/h ,also 'obscene dmg' u should try out some hard mode areas u will see obscene dmg,
also since u are a frontliner make sure u dont use superior runes ,use survivor runes or sentinels imo,and a sup vigor rune,that wya u should reach 650 hp with a shield+axe/sword combo which is quite enough not to mention u have 100 armor.
also remember this is a team game,u alone wont do so much dmg but add some buffs and u will see that dmg increase,[conjure flame],[conjure frost],[conjure lightning],or if u have more physicals in your team [barbs],[mark of pain],[splinter weapon] or [order of the vampire],[order of pain].
But tbh while u play in nm u can already do quite alot of dmg as a warrior,also don't forget to use an ias that alone wil boost your dmg quite considerable.

Marverick · Jan 20, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Warriors haven't been nerfed if memory serves, they only got stronger - prove me wrong. Warriors' Endurance proves massive spammability of Power Attack and other energy attacks, notably the IAS attacks. Primal Rage allows a mix of IAS / IMS (only you'd want this at times when you've got people kiting on a regular basis). Dragon Slash allows huge DPS and spammability of adrenaline skills.

Most elites on the Scythesin aren't "enticing" enough at all, so it rarely makes a difference.

Hai there.

[Wounding Strike] > Power Attack... I'll take +100 damage over +38 anyday.
And crit strikes gives enough energy to spam Mystic and Eremite's and Asuran Scan on recharge all day long. Too bad W/D's don't have a decent deep wound unless you have someone around spamming cracked armor.

Dragon Slash is not huge DPS... Moebius DB does more single target damage and also has AoE damage...

Interrupts? How often are PvE monsters smart enough to d-shit moebius strike?

The only advantage warriors have is KD... Stonefist's Insignia and either Brawling Headbutt on a D-slash build or Earthshaker can keep a lot of stuff on the ground.

SY! is not optimum on melee anyway; you're running around on the frontlines and might not always cover backline casters..

bungusmaximus · Jan 20, 2009, 08:14 AM // 08:14

lol a mob of 5 wind riders doesn't have to be smart to interrupt virtually everthing you throw at them. PvE mobs make up for lack of brains in sheer numbers.

Cracked armor is easy to come by when you run a support with Weaken Armor, not too bad anyways later on in the game where mobs are lvl25+.

Bobby2 · Jan 20, 2009, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

[Wounding Strike] > Power Attack... I'll take +100 damage over +38 anyday.
And crit strikes gives enough energy to spam Mystic and Eremite's and Asuran Scan on recharge all day long. Too bad W/D's don't have a decent deep wound unless you have someone around spamming cracked armor.

Flawed argument. Deep Wound applies only once, and can easily be covered by another teammate (with a non-Elite skill I might add). I take WS on my Scythesin because
A: there are usually no better alternatives
B: I don't want to spend a slot on [assassin's remedy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Dragon Slash is not huge DPS... Moebius DB does more single target damage and also has AoE damage...

Given the same buffs DS and MS/DB single target DPS are actually quite comparable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

The only advantage warriors have is KD... Stonefist's Insignia and either Brawling Headbutt on a D-slash build or Earthshaker can keep a lot of stuff on the ground.

That's a pretty damn big advantage if you ask me. Jump on the [earth shaker] train and apply global shutdown... more team slots for offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

SY! is not optimum on melee anyway; you're running around on the frontlines and might not always cover backline casters..

Heroes always follow you to within range, as do Henchies. So either
- you overextend (you suck)
- the people you play with do not grasp 'Shout range' (they suck)

Anyways, this is a thread discussing melee classes, implying H/H play, so whether SY! would be better off on some other character is irrelevant.

Then again: Warriors can take up the Spear and still spam SY!. Woot!

faraaz · Jan 20, 2009, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

well then, feel free to tell every top 20 guild to stop running their warriors and run the oh-so-awesome assassin in their spot. or, you can try to win a monthly with assassin-based offense.

until you do, please stop spewing your shit.

I was talking about PvE, not PvP.

WTS Reading Comprehension.

moriz · Jan 20, 2009, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Considering the fact that Warriors are useless for anything other than PvE Missions and killing random mobs in "balanced-way" with physicals supports, I'd say go with Assassin.

*cough* i swear that said "killing random noobs" before. looks like i need glasses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Orly? Name one thing Warriors can do atm in PvE that hasn't been nerfed to oblivion, or is considerably slower than the optimal (team) build for it at the time.

and i answered: beating the game. the warrior is certainly not "considerably slower" than your optimal team builds at doing that, and most certainly not "considerably" slower than an assassin. after all, assassins outside of those stupid invincifarming builds, require physical support to punch through everything anyways.

but then again, my mesmer with hero/hench can beat pve just as fast. so in fact, we can argue that your "optimal" builds are just flights of fancy, meaningless builds that can accomplish something MARGINALLY faster, while taking up 4 to 8 times the man power.

going back to the topic at hand: in pve (and this does not include those stupid farming builds), warriors and assassins are basically identical. you can swap one for the other in the same setup, and nobody will notice the difference. random pug players won't care if shit dies (which both can deliver) and hero/hench won't care either way.

faraaz · Jan 20, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

So you missed the posts in between where I clearly specified that I wasnt talking about beating NM Missions? Figures...proleet Guru q.q'ers have selective reading abilities I can see.

As for the comparison between sins and warriors, clearly, you dont have a Sin, otherwise you wouldn't say they are "basically identical". I mean seriously, I cannot even BEGIN to describe in how many ways they are completely different.

bungusmaximus · Jan 20, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Bah catfighting over trivial things is meh, it all comes down to this:
-Farming: Sin hands down.
-PvP: Warrior if you wanna improve, sin if you want the easy way out.
-PvE: doesn't really matter much they're both dps machines.
-Running: dervish lololol

faraaz · Jan 20, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Bah catfighting over trivial things is meh, it all comes down to this:
-Farming: Sin hands down.
-PvP: Warrior if you wanna improve, sin if you want the easy way out.
-PvE: doesn't really matter much they're both dps machines.
-Running: dervish lololol

This post, I agree with.

moriz · Jan 20, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

As for the comparison between sins and warriors, clearly, you dont have a Sin, otherwise you wouldn't say they are "basically identical". I mean seriously, I cannot even BEGIN to describe in how many ways they are completely different.

clearly, your analytical ability fails. i do have a pve sin, and a pve warrior. they are virtually identical in pve play. for both, i charge headfirst into melee and punch buttons until shit die. the mobius strike build with crit agility effectively turns them into pve warriors. anyone claiming that they are different are in denial.

Tyla · Jan 20, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Hai there.

[Wounding Strike] > Power Attack... I'll take +100 damage over +38 anyday.
And crit strikes gives enough energy to spam Mystic and Eremite's and Asuran Scan on recharge all day long. Too bad W/D's don't have a decent deep wound unless you have someone around spamming cracked armor.

Other people can carry Deep Wound, on a Scythesin Wearying Strike is better considering that if you're not using Assassins' Remedy you might as well be using a Warrior - Power Attack is awesome, and Deep Wound, as stated in Bobby's post, is only applied once.

Quote:

Dragon Slash is not huge DPS... Moebius DB does more single target damage and also has AoE damage...

So, because MS/DB is huge DPS DSlash isn't huge DPS? Something sucks because something may or may not be better?

I think you're missing out key things here: Assassins are based on combinations, if you don't hit your Moebius Strike at the right moment either because you're killing too fast, and the occasional interrupt can harm your combination - utility is also a lesser on a 'Sin and hitting Moebius - DB will give you pretty much the same damage as D-Slash assuming the same time frame.

Quote:

Interrupts? How often are PvE monsters smart enough to d-shit moebius strike?

Who said anything about interrupts?

Quote:

The only advantage warriors have is KD... Stonefist's Insignia and either Brawling Headbutt on a D-slash build or Earthshaker can keep a lot of stuff on the ground.

[power attack]

Yes, I said Power Attack. My reason for this? Scythe, again, with Power Attack equates to some huge damage - sometimes stronger than that or a MS/DB, which even I would argue against its usefulness.

Quote:

SY! is not optimum on melee anyway; you're running around on the frontlines and might not always cover backline casters..

Although not optimum, it would be the optimum choice if there were no ranged people, maintaining your huge DPS and defensive capabilities without rerolling to Paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faraaz

So you missed the posts in between where I clearly specified that I wasnt talking about beating NM Missions? Figures...proleet Guru q.q'ers have selective reading abilities I can see.

As for the comparison between sins and warriors, clearly, you dont have a Sin, otherwise you wouldn't say they are "basically identical". I mean seriously, I cannot even BEGIN to describe in how many ways they are completely different.

Oh, sorry. I'd like to have your insight on how my post was a candidate for being ignorant against because it had something to do with beating NM - my post had nothing to do with that. I'd like to see you show me how anything I said was wrong.