Curse

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephantaliste

And what do you plan to do with a 8-man team, since most of game can be h/h ?

Just because it can be done with H/H, doesn't mean you have to do it that way.

As far as I can tell, this setup would reduce HM PvE to something on par with pre.
And it's always fun to play with 7 other competent players.

upier · Apr 06, 2009, 09:17 AM // 09:17

How extensively was this tested?
Because it seems to be more draft-like atm.

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

It is a draft.

However, the various components making up the configuration have all been tested more or less extensively.

Basic question I fielded was, "how insane can I make a team with 8 human players carrying full PvE unlock?" This is my attempt at an answer.

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 09:28 AM // 09:28

The only thing I'm thinking, is that a lot of mobs may not last long enough for certain aspects of the setup to seem worthwhile.

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 09:28 AM // 09:28

I want Jeydra in here to offer suggestions on the Ether bars.

upier · Apr 06, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Because the thing I am wondering is:
1. An Imba, a second dude also spamming SY!, 2 Ether guys and the necro has a selfheal? In a 8 man team?
2. Why no AoR on the ER guys?
3. OoP does +13 damage at 11 and 12 blood. Which means you can dump the 20 points into ES.
4. Why RoF? If the guy is under SY/TNtF - he should be receiving minimal damage. And when he does take damege - you just overheal it. You have unlimited energy for it.
5. Horrors?
6. Only 1 hex removal?

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

I can understand the use of Bone Horrors, as fiends cost a lot and that can hurt even a necromancer, especially since Masochism no longer triggers on OoU. Although horrors are less likely to benefit from the Ebon Wards.
I don't think Heal Area is really necessary on the Undeath necro either.

Do the ether guys really need AoR? And RoF is useful when you encounter some armour ignoring damage, which does happen.

Barbs may become redundant on that MoP caller, as a two second cast time will mean the target will probably be dead before you can finish casting, especially with the current damage output. Bringing Mindbender over Technobabble may help alleviate that if you don't need Dazed.

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

No AoR because it's not strictly needed, there are tons of enchantments and their bars are very packed.
OoP is true and attributes should be switched. I don't normally run this bar myself.
Animate Bone Horror is the best melee minion because it has a 5 seconds recharge and only costs 10e. The energy load on the MM becomes astronomic if he runs Order of Undeath and his lowest cost minion is 15e, with fiends costing 25e. I know you like to talk about how necromancers have "unlimited energy" but they don't. It is true that you can bring Animate Bone Minions but the Horrors actually have decent armor while in the Courage ward; the Minions won't.
Like I said I need second opinions on the Ether bars and yes a second hex removal skill might be necessary. Reversal of Fortune is simply a nice spammable low-cost skill to quickly pump up energy if something goes a bit wrong, and just for the record, all damage in the game isn't armor-dependant.

Dammit Xeno you type too fast...

upier · Apr 06, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I can understand the use of Bone Horrors, as fiends cost a lot and that can hurt even a necromancer, especially since Masochism no longer triggers on OoU. Although horrors are less likely to benefit from the Ebon Wards.

They do less damage on their own, they won't be in wards, ...
I'd just save the 10 energy and the skillslot instead.
1 minion is enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Do the ether guys really need AoR? And RoF is useful when you encounter some armour ignoring damage, which does happen.

AoR means the guy is able to spam Infuse. That's what ... 350ish heal, with no recharge, with a 1/4 cast time?
You can either protect some 100 damage or heal for 350ish?

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Minions of any kind do no damage "on their own". Bleeding is useless in PvE. The Bone Horror enables you to maintain an army of ten and to raise that army fairly quickly, and since they will benefit from an IAS, they will do respectable damage. And, no, your horrors will be in the ward if you place it correctly.

As for Aura of Restoration, like I said, since there are so many enchantments in rotation it should really not be needed. The builds are _packed_ - losing two skill slots on those characters would hurt loads.

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

They do less damage on their own, they won't be in wards, ...
I'd just save the 10 energy and the skillslot instead.
1 minion is enough.

You can place the ward where the horrors are likely to stand, but yes, they're liable to move out of it.
However, I'm not sure how you intend to quickly raise and army of 10 Bone Fiends whilst spamming OoU, BotM and use the wards.
Note that at 13 SR, you can gain at most, 39 energy every 15 seconds. Add that onto the natural regeneration in 15 seconds (20) and you get 59 energy. Raising two bone fiends will cost you 50 energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

AoR means the guy is able to spam Infuse. That's what ... 350ish heal, with no recharge, with a 1/4 cast time?
You can either protect some 100 damage or heal for 350ish?

Isn't this the purpose of Ether Renewal. Fair enough, AoR makes that easier, but with all the enchantments flying around, ER should cover it.

Elephantaliste · Apr 06, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Just because it can be done with H/H, doesn't mean you have to do it that way.

As far as I can tell, this setup would reduce HM PvE to something on par with pre.
And it's always fun to play with 7 other competent players.

ofc human players are more fun to play with, but this wasn't my point.
This was about making pve a joke... and obviously this doesn't require a full team of skilled human players...
[sarcasm]
More competent or not, obviously full human team should be more effective with lots of pve-only skills.
[/sarcasm]

But anyway, how is that teambuild doing in Urgoz/DoA and else ?

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephantaliste

But anyway, how is that teambuild doing in Urgoz/DoA and else ?

Care testing it? I'll be home this afternoon.

On a side note, where is Elnore these days?

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Looking at that Volfen build, some spike skills might be nice to use with Assassin's Promise, to ensure a timely death. I was thinking Finish Him, although the target is already likely to have Deep Wound.

Also, is there a reason for the MM to bring [Renew Life] (a touch skill) over something like [Flesh of my Flesh], or even [Death Pact Signet].

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

No reason, might as well switch to Rit secondary. As for the D/Me I suppose it could bring Cry of Pain with Ether Lord, but I'm not so sure how effective it would be, maybe better just to smash it.

Again I'd very much appreciate suggestions for the Ether heal/prot duo.

upier · Apr 06, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You can place the ward where the horrors are likely to stand, but yes, they're liable to move out of it.
However, I'm not sure how you intend to quickly raise and army of 10 Bone Fiends whilst spamming OoU, BotM and use the wards.
Note that at 13 SR, you can gain at most, 39 energy every 15 seconds. Add that onto the natural regeneration in 15 seconds (20) and you get 59 energy. Raising two bone fiends will cost you 50 energy.

If one is dealing with e-management issues, one does not add more skills that cost energy. An army of fiends is what is being strived for. What horrors do is take a skill slot that could be used for achieving the goal of a fiends-army and each time they are used they also steal the 10 energy that could be used to raise a fiend.
So I'd ask myself - if horrors are doable, do I really need fiends?
If the answer to that question is no - then I'd do something about the build to support the fiends army. Adding additional e-management is the first thing that pops to one's mind. With horrors and Heal Area gone - that opens two slots for e-management.
What horrors basically represent is comparatively being unable to spam SFlames and thus spamming Flare instead.
Now - if a build that just offers fiends isn't sufficient - you might want to ask yourself if dumping the mm completely might not even be preferable. (Which would kinda be my suggestion.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Isn't this the purpose of Ether Renewal. Fair enough, AoR makes that easier, but with all the enchantments flying around, ER should cover it.

Extinguish and Heal Area+RoF would be doable for dumping.
And since AoR makes spamming so much easier - there is not much of a downside.

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If one is dealing with e-management issues, one does not add more skills that cost energy. An army of fiends is what is being strived for. What horrors do is take a skill slot that could be used for achieving the goal of a fiends-army and each time they are used they also steal the 10 energy that could be used to raise a fiend.
So I'd ask myself - if horrors are doable, do I really need fiends?
If the answer to that question is no - then I'd do something about the build to support the fiends army. Adding additional e-management is the first thing that pops to one's mind. With horrors and Heal Area gone - that opens two slots for e-management.
What horrors basically represent is comparatively being unable to spam SFlames and thus spamming Flare instead.
Now - if a build that just offers fiends isn't sufficient - you might want to ask yourself if dumping the mm completely might not even be preferable. (Which would kinda be my suggestion.)

I'm not too sure what you're getting at here.
When I run OoU, I seldom run Fiends, simply because they cost a lot of energy and often die when the enemy casts a nuke skill (of which they have plenty). Bone horrors and vampiric horrors are my choice, they deal sufficient damage, provide a nice meaty wall between me and the mob, don't strain my energy pool and the vampiric horrors help cover the sacrifice costs.
In Moloch's setup, vampiric horrors are unnecessary.

I've already commented that Soul Reaping isn't sufficient to cover raising an army of bone fiends.
So, what energy management would you suggest?
Looking at a necromancer's options, we have Signet of Lost Souls. This provides 9 energy at 13 SR and can be used every 8 seconds. Other options include Signet of Corruption, which may work if the other necro brings Reckless Haste and the derv brings crippling sweep. I'm still unconvinced that these two would be enough, given you'll be needing to raise bone fiends a lot and spam OoU and Blood of the Master (although Masochism helps eliminate that last point).
I agree with dropping Heal Area for some form of energy management. However, I'm not convinced that you should only bring Bone Fiends.

Dropping the MM altogether is an option and may turn out to be a better alternative. Given SY! and the like, a minion wall may be redundant. However, minions do work so well with skills such as MoP and Barbs.

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If one is dealing with e-management issues, one does not add more skills that cost energy. An army of fiends is what is being strived for. What horrors do is take a skill slot that could be used for achieving the goal of a fiends-army and each time they are used they also steal the 10 energy that could be used to raise a fiend.
So I'd ask myself - if horrors are doable, do I really need fiends?
If the answer to that question is no - then I'd do something about the build to support the fiends army. Adding additional e-management is the first thing that pops to one's mind. With horrors and Heal Area gone - that opens two slots for e-management.
What horrors basically represent is comparatively being unable to spam SFlames and thus spamming Flare instead.
Now - if a build that just offers fiends isn't sufficient - you might want to ask yourself if dumping the mm completely might not even be preferable. (Which would kinda be my suggestion.)

The problem with fiends only is quite simply that maintaining a full army of fiends takes a lot of time to achieve even when not using Order of Undeath. If using this spell with consistency it is damn near impossible. When Order of Undeath sacced on cast, it was easier, but even THEN it was almost impossible and took a long time. You overestimate Soul Reaping. The fiends can also easily be nuked and there isn't much to do about that in some cases.

The horrors. Are. Not. Bad. While under an IAS, they strike pretty often, they trigger Barbs, they benefit from the ward, they have the Order, they provide decoys and they provide energy management.

Bone Horrors net you a plus energy unless your SR return is maxed out. Bone Fiends will always net you an energy minus. The notion that the Horrors steal your energy is wrong.

Fiends-only MM with Order of Undeath is not viable for a maintainable army. Losing out on ten extra bodies triggering the physical hexes and the effects is a bad idea.

upier · Apr 06, 2009, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The problem with fiends only is quite simply that maintaining a full army of fiends takes a lot of time to achieve even when not using Order of Undeath. If using this spell with consistency it is damn near impossible. When Order of Undeath sacced on cast, it was easier, but even THEN it was almost impossible and took a long time. You overestimate Soul Reaping. The fiends can also easily be nuked and there isn't much to do about that in some cases.

The horrors. Are. Not. Bad. While under an IAS, they strike pretty often, they trigger Barbs, they benefit from the ward, they have the Order, they provide decoys and they provide energy management.

Fiends-only MM with Order of Undeath is not viable for a maintainable army. Losing out on ten extra bodies triggering the physical hexes and the effects is a bad idea.

In that case - dump fiends.
You can only run 10 minions - and the recharge isn't holding you back. There is just no point in running two sorts of minions.

I'd go with an additional physical. You get the benefits of the orders and you know that the guy will followed the called target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Bone Horrors net you a plus energy unless your SR return is maxed out. Bone Fiends will always net you an energy minus. The notion that the Horrors steal your energy is wrong.

Imagine you have 13 energy. If you want to raise a fiend you need an additional 12 energy.
OR you can use 10 energy out of the 13 energy pool to raise a horror.
When you do that - you need an additional 22 energy to raise a fiend.
If you don't have the energy to raise a fiend - raising a horror instead just sets you back an additional 10 energy.
Thus horrors steal energy from fiends. That's why it doesn't make sense to run horrors if you want an fiends army but have energy issues.

Moloch Vein · Apr 06, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

The situation is not like that. I can not have an all-fiend army, because an all-fiend army is too expensive to run, too time-consuming to set up and too fragile. Thus my options are either an all-horror army or a mixed army. It has been shown that a mixed army yields the best results. They form two clusters which mean both cannot be nuked by monsters at the same time. They deal more damage than an all-horror army while being more resilient both than an all-fiend and an all-horror army, because of the clustering behavior.

If I could only have an all-horror army or none at all, I'd run that, but I have a better option, which is the mixed army. Not running the MM at all loses ten physical attackers, which, again, is bad given the potential of even the smallest physical hit.

Also what I meant was that the horrors do not consume energy over time since they die and return the energy, while the fiends are so expensive that them dying doesn't balance the scales.

One drastic means of solving some of the energy issue with the Undeath build would be to include Auspicious Incantation with 12-11-6 and 6 in Inspiration, which would net a return of 31 energy every 25 seconds. The added recharge (5+8=13) is harmless since you cannot spam the Fiend summon on recharge anyway.