Apr 07, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02
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#61
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Hmm.
[build prof=N Blood=12+3+1 soulr=12+1][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Cultist's Fervor][Masochism][Feel no Pain][Great Dwarf Weapon][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Foul Feast][/build]?
No Plague sending as I doubt you'll be affected by conditions much. Wasn't sure what I'd suggest to swap out for Feel no Pain.
I'd still prefer the OotV build or the original ER build, as they have less sac or built in heals respectively.
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Apr 07, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57
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#62
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Profession: N/
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[cultist's fervor]+[masochism] is the same amount of bar compression as [glyph of swiftness]+[ether renewal]...except it also has attrib pt compression.
as for the sac cost...you stand in the eles [heal area]? constant bleeding is hardly something to worry bout imo.
the mm changes i suggested were mostly in regard to e-management. sure the op build looks nice--if you had infinite energy, but you don't.
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Apr 07, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04
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#63
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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I've run the MM bar on the OP and it's not too bad. Maintaining 5 fiends and 5 horrors is doable.
The reason why I was commenting on the sac, is because I would have recommended losing Heal Area for something else. Besides, Heal Area won't necessarily cover it and that ele wants to be spamming Infuse. The odd Infuse should do fine, but it places what feels like, unnecessary stress.
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Apr 08, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52
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#64
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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After discussion with Jon I think we've come to the conclusion to skip the current Orders bar and have it replaced with a dual AP configuration. The normal Mark of Pain caller plus one Orders AP (aren't we creative!)
[build prof=N/A Curse=12+1+1 Soul=10+1 Deadly=8][mark of pain][barbs][rigor mortis][reckless haste][assassin's promise][ebon vanguard assassin support][by ural's hammer][mindbender][/build]
[build prof=N/A Blood=12+1+1 Soul=9+1 Deadly=9 Curse=3+1][order of pain][mark of fury][weaken armor][strip enchantment][assassin's promise][ebon vanguard assassin support][technobabble][mindbender][/build]
Exact tuning is up to debate.
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:03 AM // 10:03
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#65
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Is it really worth having AP on the orders bar? It'll recharge mindbender and the assassin skill, but is that worth the elite?
Oh, and you've lost out on some damage from [Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]. Because mindbender would be very useful on that bar, I'd look at swapping out Technobabble or the Sin support for it.
Last edited by Xenomortis; Apr 08, 2009 at 10:07 AM // 10:07..
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08
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#66
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wales
Guild: No longer actively playing.
Profession: N/
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We were just talking about Ebsoh and we were gonna put it on the MM bar.
Possibly changing the whole MM bar.
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:12 AM // 10:12
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#67
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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I think it's definitely worth the elite. AP will help manage energy on the Blood bar. It will also make it possible to run "offensive orders" rather than "slow shit orders". Mindbender is ftw on the bar and should always be up. Also you get the extra utility of being able to take both technobabble, ural's, enchant strip, dual ebon sins, etc.
Order AP will be much more fun to run than a normal Order bar.
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:28 AM // 10:28
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#68
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Yeah. Looking at Mindbender, it's too useful not to be able maintain constantly.
As for EBSoH on the MM: I suggest either replacing Masochism for it if the player is confident with energy, or only having one of the Ebon Standards (either Courage or Honor, preferably Honor).
Changing the entire MM bar seems a bit drastic and unnecessary as an OoU MM is already very powerful.
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35
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#69
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Thing is this.
Losing E/N order to N/A order, you lose Foul Feast. I don't say you can't run it, it's just that you make the order into an offensive character with an assortment of proactive attack skills, and those are valuable and are candidates for AP-recharge (useless on FF). Means Foul Feast should go on the MM. Means MM turns more into a support role. I am not really sure if the effect of Order of Undeath is really, really worth the enormous energy tax, especially considering the omgwtf damage that's already slotted into the build.
Considering Empathic Removal.
Last edited by Moloch Vein; Apr 08, 2009 at 10:43 AM // 10:43..
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49
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#70
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Hmmm. The thing about Order of Undeath, is that it'll trigger to its full effect where skills like Hundred Blades and Mark of Pain won't. Minions don't need enemies to all be within adjacent range of each other for OoU to do good amounts of damage.
With regards to the orders bar, I'm a little dubious of the worth of a second Ebon Sin. With three physical players (one with 100B) all under an IAS attacking your target (more if some casters are carrying a spear) and up to 10 minions running around and one Ebon Sin with a knockdown skill, a second one seems a little superfluous and it'll only trigger MoP more by a tiny fraction.
The other skills on the orders bar I agree with. If you're pushing for Foul Feast, I currently hold that the orders bar is the best place for it.
I think you'd have to do some tests with these builds to be conclusive.
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54
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#71
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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While I know you know this, the wonderful thing about the Ebon assassin is that it stays alive after the target is dead. This means that dual AP bars with these doesn't just mean that "there'll be two assassins instead of one", it means that the quantity will be doubled. This is a pretty good benefit.
As for Foul Feast on the Orders... no. Just no. I want to get away from the "Orders-b1tch" role that those builds have been relegated to.
I realize that there is nothing stopping you from switching between friendly and enemy targets, but there's something to be said for a build that's simple, straightforward and fun to play. Many teams can be made that are very effective, but if they're a pain in the butt or simply boring you stiff, most people won't bother playing them. One of the reasons why we never went Ursanway.
Last edited by Moloch Vein; Apr 08, 2009 at 11:14 AM // 11:14..
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Apr 08, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40
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#72
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
As for Foul Feast on the Orders... no. Just no. I want to get away from the "Orders-b1tch" role that those builds have been relegated to.
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That I appreciate.
I'm just conscious that the ebon sins have a very short life span and once they've been through their attack chain, only serve as an extra minion, of which the MM will be producing a lot.
I'm arguing for keeping OoU, because if you're going to have minions, it makes sense to maximise their output. But, as Foul Feast is necessary on a build somewhere (unless you can somehow squeeze another condition removal on the ele bars):
[build prof=N/Rt death=12+1+3 soul=12+1 curses=3+1][Order of Undeath][Blood of the Master][Animate Bone Horror][Foul Feast][Signet of Lost Souls][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Plague Sending][Flesh of My Flesh][/build]
Replaced Fiends with Foul Feast and EBSoC for EBSoH. The removal of fiends means energy management is much easier and so Masochism was lost for Plague Sending.
Unfortunatly, you've lost out on fiends. You could, I suppose, keep Bone Fiends and lose Plague Sending if you're not too worried about conditions on the MM. Masochism isn't that useful.
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Apr 08, 2009, 11:55 AM // 11:55
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#73
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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I agree that the MM bar needs to lose some energy load but I'm not sure if the proposed bar would do more or less damage than an elite-less bar with Fiends replacing OoU given the proposed team configuration.
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Apr 08, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12
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#74
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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The Bone horrors are likely to be affected by Volfen Bloodlust, granting a 33% IAS. This suffers downtime though.
Horrors attack once every 3.17 seconds. Fiends, once every 1.93 seconds.
Fiends are less likely to be affected by bloodlust.
With bloodlust up, horrors attack once every 2.12 seconds, fiends every 1.29 seconds. I've ignored downtime here.
Fiends attack about 60% faster than horrors and can attack at range. The real issue is does OoU grant minions an extra 60% or more in terms of damage? At 16 Death, it adds 17 damage to their attacks. Against high level foes, a minions attack is otherwise pitiful (so the answer to that question is almost definitly yes).
Also of note, is the Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. Fiends are much more likely to remain in it's radius and gain it's bonus. That can potentially add 15 damage to their attacks (but nobody likes grind).
Horrors are less likely to die.
What is the most important factor would you say? I would guess that the two builds are fairly close, but the non-OoU bar has the advantage of not having the sacrifice cost from OoU.
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Apr 08, 2009, 12:19 PM // 12:19
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#75
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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I'm not sure. However with no Order of Undeath you can skip two skills (that and Signet of Lost Souls). So you could bring another elite.
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Apr 08, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51
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#76
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wales
Guild: No longer actively playing.
Profession: N/
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Crazy idea would to make the Imbagon 100b aswell. lol i know.
[build;OQGjQxmKKS9FTNxgAhhf2iXFubA]
Yes, yes the Build is very adrenaline heavy but i think this would be nice for someone or anyone who has played imbagon knows how boring it can get.
[tryptophan [email protected]] At max rank it's 40% and it can be up kept all the time. It's a awesome snare for Mark of Pain. This skill should really be abused more often by melee classes.
But the build needs some real thought. Thanks to riven for Signet idea.
Scrap it or think on it?
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Apr 08, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46
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#77
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
I agree that the MM bar needs to lose some energy load but I'm not sure if the proposed bar would do more or less damage than an elite-less bar with Fiends replacing OoU given the proposed team configuration.
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With regards to this, I've just been to the Isle of the Nameless and:
OoU + EBSoH + 5 Bone Horrors will just draw over EBSoH + 3 Bone Fiends + 2 Bone Horrors. I think.
I'd have to repeat the test a few times to be sure, but it's pretty damn close.
Do note, that the Master of Damage only has 60 armour, so the base attack damage from the minions will be higher than it would be on enemies in HM and in high end areas. OoU will add more percentage wise in those areas and should outdo fiends with no OoU.
I have failed to take into account the IAS effect (though I don't think that'll have any effect on damage ratios between the two) and what effect the skill [Go for the eyes] has.
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Apr 08, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58
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#78
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2008
Profession: Me/
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[Build prof=N/A name="Draft" box death=12+1+3 soul=8+1 deadly=10][Assassin's Promise][Animate Bone Fiend][Animate Shambling Horror][Blood of the Master][Death Nova][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Mindbender][Signet of Corruption (Luxon)][/Build]
[Build prof=N/A name="Draft 2" box death=12+1+3 soul=8+1 deadly=10][Assassin's Promise][Animate Bone Fiend][Animate Shambling Horror][Blood of the Master][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Mindbender][Signet of Lost Souls][/Build]
Might be interesting alternatives to the current MM bar. I realize that it's hard for a human player to utilize [[Death Nova], however.
Last edited by Saraneth; Apr 08, 2009 at 10:40 PM // 22:40..
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06
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#79
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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With only 8 (or 9 with a rune) in Soul Reaping, you won't have the energy to raise and maintain an army composed of Fiends and Shambling Horrors, even with AP. I can see both of those bars being really pushed for energy.
Given what's been discussed for a MM bar so far, you also miss out on condition removal from Foul Feast.
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Apr 08, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21
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#80
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2008
Profession: Me/
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[[Signet of Corruption (Luxon)] should prove useful in the nrg department against foes with [[Reckless Haste]; it also gets the recharge from AP. You could replace [[Death Nova] or [[Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] with [[Foul Feast].
Last edited by Saraneth; Apr 08, 2009 at 10:23 PM // 22:23..
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