Curse

MagmaRed · Apr 06, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

The Undeath MM is wasting a skill slot on Masochism, as it only gives energy on life sacrifice, not health loss. So unless he is using Blood of the Master, he gains no benefit from it. I always run Fiends and Vamps on an Undeath bar, as the Fiends attack better for the damage, but the Vamps help offset the health loss. True the Vamps have a longer recharge, but I found you want a 7-3 or 6-4 split in Fiend-melee anyway.

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

The Undeath MM is wasting a skill slot on Masochism, as it only gives energy on life sacrifice, not health loss. So unless he is using Blood of the Master, he gains no benefit from it. I always run Fiends and Vamps on an Undeath bar, as the Fiends attack better for the damage, but the Vamps help offset the health loss. True the Vamps have a longer recharge, but I found you want a 7-3 or 6-4 split in Fiend-melee anyway.

He is running BotM and like any good MM, should be spamming it a lot, raising minions as necessary and spamming OoU on recharge.
I almost agree though, it isn't too effective but is nice if you can fit it in.

Vampiric Horrors should be unnecessary, given the two ER Infusers. Plus, their longer recharge means they aren't always available to summon when you don't want or can't have Bone Fiends. They also provide a net loss of energy.

Shursh · Apr 06, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Nice team build, and i guess i'll throw in my 2 cents on the MM necro discussion:

As much as I like that wall of minions to trigger barbs, MoP, etc., i'm thinking that it probably isn't needed.

In it's place I would put another [assassin's promise] nuker with another copy of [ebon vanguard assassin support] for more targetable nuking, as well as an asuran summons like [summon ice imp] for aggro control with their [ice spikes] - that way you still gain large benefit from MoP even though you are losing a minion master. So instead of a MM, i would have a bar that looks something like this:

[assassin's promise][ebon vanguard assassin support][summon ice imp][finish him!][enfeebling blood][shadow of fear][mark of fury][rend enchantments]
~12 SR
rest in deadly arts & curses, leftover in blood for mark of fury.

anyway, the rest looks awesome, and good job on the discussion.

EDIT: wow, just noticed the casting time on the asuran summons....maybe drop finish him! for [mindbender] lol

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I don't think that build would offer as much as the suggested OoU MM build. All that gives is a single melee attacker triggering MoP and Imp with AoE snare (which is useful to keep enemies balled up).

zwei2stein · Apr 06, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Look like random imba bars thrown together rather than forcused teambuild, but whatever, it will roll pve.

My comments:

1: With Air, FGJ seems pointless. Either of them could go, I personally would rather take YMLAD. I would Debate GFTE and rather take Fallback (move faster from group to group, nothing else). Wolven provides IAS, you can loose yours for anything.
2: could use Finish Him! to make really, really, sure AP triggers. Guess you could add one asuran minion skill. while you are at it.
3: Frenzy? 2 provides IAS. I see pretty much anything else there. Body Blow? Distracting Strike?
4: Reckless is weird choice. I would go for good old enfeebling blood.
5: I would debate if its worth it with 2 physicals of which only one has AOE (wolf will spend little time swinging weapon)
6, 7: Too much heal area, too little aegis. I would find way to add erruption.
8: But if you want players to be MM ... sure, why not. I would give him Fallback too, just to alternate with para to get stuff done faster.

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Look like random imba bars thrown together rather than forcused teambuild, but whatever, it will roll pve.

My comments:

1: With Air, FGJ seems pointless. Either of them could go, I personally would rather take YMLAD. I would Debate GFTE and rather take Fallback (move faster from group to group, nothing else). Wolven provides IAS, you can loose yours for anything.
2: could use Finish Him! to make really, really, sure AP triggers. Guess you could add one asuran minion skill. while you are at it.
3: Frenzy? 2 provides IAS. I see pretty much anything else there. Body Blow? Distracting Strike?
4: Reckless is weird choice. I would go for good old enfeebling blood.
5: I would debate if its worth it with 2 physicals of which only one has AOE (wolf will spend little time swinging weapon)
6, 7: Too much heal area, too little aegis. I would find way to add erruption.
8: But if you want players to be MM ... sure, why not. I would give him Fallback too, just to alternate with para to get stuff done faster.

1.
Why is FGJ worthless with Air? Air of superiority doesn't ever provide adrenaline and FGJ doesn't recharge skills. Your statement confuses me.
As for losing GFTE, I disagree. This synergises rather well with minions.
I agree that Aggressive Refrain is almost redundant with Volfen Bloodlust, but bloodlust is not maintainable and may suffer a lot of downtime if that player doesn't kill AP's target in time.

2.
This was discussed a bit earlier. Any quick finishing skills would work (they probably won't be necessary though). Finish Him seems like a good candidate, but the target will probably already have Deep Wound, so you won't spike for as much.

3.
Yeah Frenzy is weird. I suppose it's maintainable and can be used when bloodlust is down (and if Volfen doesn't recharged). I can't really help with war builds though.

4.
Reckless has a nice effect and provides a good cover hex should there be hex removal. I'd consider it interchangable with Enfeebling Blood.

5.
May or may not be worth it. Surely the volfen player would spend a fair bit of time swinging that scythe if they have an IAS? Only stopping for Volfen Claw (which ok, is fairly common). Then there's the case if they fail to kill on time and Volfen isn't recharged.

6.
Erm... nothing I can say here.

7.
Aegis... well physical attacks aren't likely to do much with SY! up. Still, probably more useful than Heal Area.

8.
Not sure where you would fit Fallback on there. Note that this character is one of two with a res. If you really insisted, I'd say remove either Bone Fiends or Masochism for Fallback and use Signet of Return for the res.

Saraneth · Apr 06, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

...a second hex removal skill might be necessary

I'd consider taking [[Convert Hexes] as needed on the ER bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Reckless is weird choice. I would go for good old enfeebling blood.

-

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Too much heal area, too little aegis.

[[Reckless haste] acts as a 12 sec [[Aegis (PVE)] at 14 curses. With a 12 sec recharge, it's more maintainable than a single ER running [[Aegis (PVE)].

Jeydra · Apr 06, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I want Jeydra in here to offer suggestions on the Ether bars.

I don't think I'm the best person to comment since I almost never play in such organized groups, instead making do with whatever my friends want to play with or simply H/H, but I'll give some opinions anyway ...

You have three Ether Renewal bars in the build. Start with the Ether Healer. You don't have Aura of Restoration (which in my opinion is too powerful to give up - it provides as much health gain as four enchantments). I'd say drop Extinguish for it. Reverse Hex isn't very good. Sure it casts fast and recharges decently but with the amount of energy you have as an ER healer why not use Convert Hexes? Same goes for the Ether Protector, with one more thing - Heal Area? Unless you're using that to heal minions (spam Blood of the Master imo) I don't see the point. I don't know for the Ether Orders bar since I've never played anything like that, but I doubt the usefulness of Plague Sending. Aside from Dazed (which is rare), none of the conditions out there threaten an Ether Renewal bar operating at 14 Energy Storage. You could drop Plague Sending for the other Ebon Vanguard Ward and free some room on the MM's bar, although I do wonder if the armor bonuses stack with the imbagon.

But that's somewhat beating around the bush. I see a huge problem with the bar, and that is the strong prots. They're normally invaluable, but you have an imbagon in the teambuild. Imbagons are fantastic damage reduction, and with that kind of reduction floating around I doubt Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond will trigger much. If you're going to use an imbagon, you might as well use a real Monk and concentrate on Aegis, Shield of Absorption and Seed of Life. After all, minus the prots the only thing ER Elementalists have that Monks don't is single-target powerheals from Infuse, and you can compensate with WoH + bring along a bunch of other prots an ER Elementalist can't use as effectively.

Alternatively, with the Imbagon, it might be possible to use only one ER healer and swap the other ER healer out for a defensive midliner with some cleanup. Probably steal one of the Infuse-spam builds for this bar (ER, Glyph of Swiftness, Aura of Resto, Infuse, Protective Bond, Life Attunement, some more skills, ask Elnore).

Other random comments:

1. Instead of Heal Party + Mindbender, it might be better to use three copies of Breath of the Great Dwarf spread across all thee ER Elementalists.
2. Quickening Zephyr, if it can be added, will free one slot on the ER Elementalists (can drop Glyph of Swiftness). I don't know what will happen to the MM though, maybe add Blood Ritual to the ER Orders guy or something?
3. What's the point of coming up with reasonably balanced builds when you can just AP / Cry of Pain your way through PvE?

Xenomortis · Apr 07, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Same goes for the Ether Protector, with one more thing - Heal Area? Unless you're using that to heal minions (spam Blood of the Master imo) I don't see the point.

Blood of the Master makes for a superior minion heal and is far more reliable mid-fight. I agree, Heal Area feels redundant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You could drop Plague Sending for the other Ebon Vanguard Ward and free some room on the MM's bar, although I do wonder if the armor bonuses stack with the imbagon.

That would allow the MM to bring an extra energy management skill (signet of corruption comes to mind). That ward is more for the Bone Fiends though, which don't recieve an armour boost from Save Yourselves. It's also handy during any downtime with SY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

But that's somewhat beating around the bush. I see a huge problem with the bar, and that is the strong prots. They're normally invaluable, but you have an imbagon in the teambuild. Imbagons are fantastic damage reduction, and with that kind of reduction floating around I doubt Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond will trigger much.

Pre-protting is still useful and armour ignoring damage does occur.

snaek · Apr 07, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

this is a similar set-up to my 'balanced' team, except no [[volfen blessing] and real monk (heroes) healers. and also depending on the area, no mm. as well, i tend to bring interrupts of some kind. i dun really like the gimmicky names people attach to builds, unless it is really gimmicky. this one looks pretty normal/standard to me.

--paragon--
its either [focused anger] + [for great justice] or [focused anger] + [air of superiority]. theres no need for all 3 (they don't stack).

[theres nothing to fear] 10s duraction / 20s recharge will be pretty tight to upkeep [aggressive refrain] @ 22s. very doable...but tight.

--volfen blessing--
meh...not much to say when its a one-skill build. but scythe is not really important--it won't affect the volfen dmg dealing skills in any way. i'd actually use sword/daggers for faster triggers on [mark of pain]/[barbs].

--warrior--
[frenzy] with no (real) cancel stance? it can work with the teambuild...but may prove to be a problem.

--orders--
i'd recommend going necro primary for the extra attrib pts in blood magic. [cultist's fervor]+[masochism] should be enough e-management to maintain orders 24/7. plus it gives you a free condition for [plague sending]. (which reminds me, i still need to test of a hero can run this properly)

--mm--
i usually run [glyph of lesser energy] in this build, but since your running it with [volfen blessing] i'd have to recommend removing [animate bone fiend] instead. ias from [volfen bloodlust] is only nearby...so its not the biggest range. although, you could have a mix between the 2.

[ebon battle standard of courage]??? why? sure it may help minions, but i really don't think the energy will permit it, besides thats what [blood of the master] spam is for. just stand in within the ele's [heal area] and spam away. plus [animate bone horror] has decent armour, which i would recommend to use to synergize best with [volfen bloodlust]'s area of effect. not to mention easier on the energy.

i'm kind of under the impression that your just stickin in pve-skills just for the hell of it lol.

Xenomortis · Apr 07, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

--mm--
i usually run [glyph of lesser energy] in this build, but since your running it with [volfen blessing] i'd have to recommend removing [animate bone fiend] instead. ias from [volfen bloodlust] is only nearby...so its not the biggest range. although, you could have a mix between the 2.

[ebon battle standard of courage]??? why? sure it may help minions, but i really don't think the energy will permit it, besides thats what [blood of the master] spam is for. just stand in within the ele's [heal area] and spam away. plus [animate bone horror] has decent armour, which i would recommend to use to synergize best with [volfen bloodlust]'s area of effect. not to mention easier on the energy.

Bone Fiends will still attack faster than horrors under bloodlust. It's not too difficult to maintain an army of about 5 fiends with 5 horrors, but keeping it up in long battle may be taxing without additional energy management.
[Ebon battle standard of courage] - I found this kept the fiends alive during the initial nukes. Prot > Heal and BotM just cannot be spammed fast enough to keep the fiends alive at the start of each fight. Casting this isn't hard on energy.
In areas where battles are much longer, just sticking to bone horrors may be a more efficient tactic.

In regards to the orders build, a primary necro would probably be better. That way, you can run a higher spec into blood magic, although you would have to actively counter the sacrifice (meaning the infusers have two people to really worry about).

And I'm confused as to why you shouldn't run [Focused Anger] with both [For Great Justice] and [Air of Superiority]. The two don't overlap and air has some nice benefits.

Moloch Vein · Apr 07, 2009, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I don't think that a primary necromancer would be as effective as the elementalist. The sacrifices if running Cultist's are huge, and it still will not have nearly as good energy management as the E. Doing this just for a few extra points in Blood doesn't seem worth it. Also if you slap on both Cultist's and Masochism you sacrifice both elite and another slot, just like the ele, but for less returns. The reason would be for putting extra utility, which makes the N better for lesser-size parties.

I would dearly love to find a way to get off Dark Fury so that a necromancer could take Order of the Vampire. This would be manageable with no problem and compress the bar considerably.

Hatchet Child · Apr 07, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

[[mark of fury] might be an idea, But then your just swapping it with Dark fury. Maybe put it on someone else's bar?

.....or just screw [mark of fury].

Xenomortis · Apr 07, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

By not having Dark Fury, the elementalists lose out on an enchantment that fuels ER.
I don't know how important Dark Fury is to the imbagon in building adrenaline, but perhaps you could replace with with Mark of Fury.

Pah, beaten. Makes a change.

Hatchet Child · Apr 07, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Well your post was more well wrote out and thought out. :P

I don't think the ele's would need Dark Fury. In experience of playing one it's nice to have [order of pain] and [dark fury] but it's not Required. I would say otherwise if it was a Hero running one of the ele's bars.

EDIT: The ele's bars would be gaining 12 energy with just [Order of pain]

Moloch Vein · Apr 07, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

The mark caller bar is extremely crowded and it might be better for an Order running OoV to grab mark of fury, in that case. Also he could pack Strip Enchantment since that skill hasn't been nerfed and removes two enchantments, which normally is enough.

Xenomortis · Apr 07, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

So...
[Build prof=N blood=12+1+3 soulr=12+1 Curses=3+1][Order of the Vampire][Mark of Fury][Masochism][Strip Enchantment][Great Dwarf Weapon][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Foul Feast][Plague Sending][/build] ?

Havn't really thought that out and I'm not sure what level blood rune to use.

Looking at that, you probably don't need masochism anymore. Mabye [Signet of Lost Souls] instead.

You could drop one SR rank and boost curses a bit, meaning you don't need a rune to reach the breakpoint for Plague Sending.

Hatchet Child · Apr 07, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

3+1 Curses might be a good idea (you might of forgot to put it in that build) as the break point for [plague [email protected]] is 4

Xenomortis · Apr 07, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Hmm... looking at Cultist's Fervor, it, along with Masochism would provide all the necessary energy. Unfortunatly, you'd need a way to counter the bleeding caused by CF and you'll still have the sac from the two orders to worry about. It's a shame blood renewal has such a high sacrifice.

Hatchet Child · Apr 07, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

[Feel no pain] Could cover Bleeding effect at rank 6 norn->