Curse

Craze Horse · Jun 15, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

You guys are making a big deal out of this for nothing.

Let's say 1 on 1 (yes yes I know) bring "Crippling Anguish" and the touch ranger is dead. They can't heal if they can't get to you. Also if you have good team mates they should be able to kite around a slowed TR. There are plenty of counters, the build is perfectally fine. Start argueing about something important like improving assassins, they needed help even before shadowstepping was nerffed.

Elementos · Jun 16, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohooiam

i've been screaming about a nerf to touch rangers since day one.

G G G G G G G G G G Unit.

What a lazy bum.... get off your butt and think of an anti touch ranger build.... its not that hard, and they are not overpowered at all... certain builds screw them up!

Duality · Jun 16, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elementos

What a lazy bum.... get off your butt and think of an anti touch ranger build.... its not that hard, and they are not overpowered at all... certain builds screw them up!

Even builds that aren't specifically designed with them in mind screw them up. They don't have to be degen/snare builds either. Display some freaking adaptability peoples.

Ineffiable · Jun 16, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Not every team will have a mesmer or half mesmer with Crippling Angish and degen all the time though.

(talking about mostly random areas like fort aspenwood)

Cassie McKnight · Jun 16, 2006, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Nah their overpowerd, for example is there any other build which forces you to make a counterbuild like the TA doe's?
And what classes can counter it? all of them or only specific ones?

awesome sauce · Jun 16, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

We don't want to make an "anti-touch ranger build" because you only run into them every once in a while... and with every other group youre useless. The fact is that a typical well rounded build equipped to take on a number of different types of foes will have trouble dealing with them.

samifly · Jun 16, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassie McKnight

Nah their overpowerd, for example is there any other build which forces you to make a counterbuild like the TA doe's?
And what classes can counter it? all of them or only specific ones?

Warriors come to mind. If your in RA (which seems to be all we care about) you pretty much *have* to bring warrior hate. And mesmers are the same best class to counter warriors and touchrangers.

If you read the scribe for this week - its pretty clear anet knows about this and likes it. I sorta think touch rangers are anet's way of shaking things up. Like the AoE nerf - people just changed tactics, other professions got more love. Perhaps the TR is anet's way of removing the warriors absolute dominance in the field of pvp. As i seem to see that most of the complaints are coming from warriors, since they have the least amount of defenses against TR.

samifly · Jun 16, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome sauce

We don't want to make an "anti-touch ranger build" because you only run into them every once in a while... and with every other group youre useless. The fact is that a typical well rounded build equipped to take on a number of different types of foes will have trouble dealing with them.

A good anti-touch ranger build is just a good build that can take out most people. Degen-snares, ss, or whatever else works just as well on anyone else.

selber · Jun 16, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

To be absolutely blunt; the counter to Touch Rangers is to not suck at this game.

They are a build, like IWAY, which beats bad players very quickly. A good team will have absolutely no problem against them at all. They are a ridiculous gimmick. As someone stated earlier; they weed out the bad teams from RA, much like IWAY weeds out the bad teams from the early rounds of HA.

Seriously, learn to play.

You are wrong. In RA you can't decide who get's in your team. You want a selfsufficient character: C-Shot Ranger with BO, Warrior with Healsig, Illusionmesmer with Distortion, a *cough* Touchranger etc etc.

While in AB you can make teams of 4 players most just pick 4 and go. That is okay - this mode was introduced to have some short entertaining fun with GW-PvP.

A Touchranger is very strong (excellent selfhealing, evadestances, plaguetouch, +AL vs. Elementardamage) AND very easy to play. Now - for example, a fotm-chain Assassin (GPS, HOTO, FS, TF) is also very strong in 1v1 - the point is: It's NOT as easy to play. Such an Assassin has much more weakness' and you won't beat a Touchranger with this - in general - very usefull Assassin.

Another example. I will come up with an - in my oppionion - stable and pretty common warriorbuild that can kill stuff and is very hard to kill on the other hand: Sever, Gash, Finalthrust, Shock, Frenzy, A-Parry, Sprint, Healsig. This is for AB, therefore no Rezsig. You won't do shit to a touchranger. So let's drop FT for Wildblow. Better. Problem is: The TR will just outdamage you (You need to hit Healsig more then you can attack). So hit & run, right? Error... you would just let the ranger gaining energy. Won't work.

Not all players just do GvG, some enjoy RA/TA/AB. And they have the same right to get listened by Anet then any Top 20 Guild complaining about Distortion, Crippshot or Gale.

Like IWAY was not overpowered in Tombs - it still destroyed the fun for many people. Touchrangers may not be overpowered, but the same will happen here for AB and RA.

Yakumo · Jun 16, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duality

Even builds that aren't specifically designed with them in mind screw them up. They don't have to be degen/snare builds either. Display some freaking adaptability peoples.

Agree...

This is part of a simple air ele build:

Mind Shock
Gale
Lightning Strike
Enervating Charge...

There are 2 knock downs. The ele could keep the TR down and helpless on the ground. Is it a specific 'anti-touch ranger build', or can it be used against other builds? Looks more like something that was meant to be used for an air spike...

Granted that there are weaknesses to this air build... just like any other.

XvArchonvX · Jun 16, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Never really have problems with TR when I use my ranger. Here's my build for anyone who's havin trouble with em:

Hunter's Shot
Savage Shot
Apply Poison
Throw Dirt
Barbed Trap
Escape {E}
Troll Unguent
Rez or Flame Trap if rez isn't needed

If you know for sure you are going against a touch ranger, then Pin Down works well also. I actually used to run this build also, which works great against TR as well:

Hunter's Shot
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Apply Poison
Crippling Shot {E}
Dodge
Troll Unguent
Rez

Both builds are excellent against tanks also. Basically since a touch ranger has to touch you, just dance around barbed trap and inter plague touch if you get caught in range when he triggers it. If using the second build, just keep him crippled. Once incapacitated, just poison him, catch him with Hunter' Shot and run circles around him as he slowly whithers away.

wren e · Jun 16, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Touch Rangers are not overpowered IMO. There are many counters out there to them that should already in one form or another be in your build. Or, and this is really easy, if you see one coming for you kite. Personally, I think that they have added to playing RA, TA, and AB now.

Criminally Sane · Jun 16, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by selber

-insert random I lose a lot to touch rangers in RA/AB babble here-

Yeah, Touch rangers are strong in some ways...but they're also extremely weak to any snare, degen, etc etc. They also suck versus people who kite, c'mon now. Overpowered...no.

As far as your examples of what fails to a touch ranger... Learn to play Guild Wars, please. No one build can kill every single other build. It's a game of builds, counters to builds and skill. It's also a game of teamwork, not "omfg I must solo you all! hahahaha ph34r my uberl33t build".

For alliance battle, you can form your own team. Give someone on said team a snare. That's one skill slot out of 32 (4x8), and it shuts down touch rangers. Overpowered? lol.

Sure, in RA, you can't form your own teams. Also, the players you find in RA aren't the best. THIS is why touch rangers work so well, it's not that they're overpowered, it's that the people they're facing generally suck at PvP. You don't see touch rangers in GvG or Tombs for a reason... Generally, players of these types of PvP are more skilled and better coordinated than ones in RA.

As far as IWAY being overpowered in Tombs... It weeded out the worst teams then, and it continues to do so now. No nerf was needed imo, since the same counters still apply, but whatever. Nerf touch rangers, fine. Let's nerf everything a wamo loses to 1v1, because people are too lazy to come up with builds that work.

SnipiousMax · Jun 16, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

For a close range damage dealer, Touch Ranger's fall short. Let's look at what they can't do.

They cannot apply conditions. This is most deeply noticed in the fact that they cannot apply a deep wound. They can TRANSFER conditions, but in of themselves they cannot apply a condition.

They cannot knock down kiting foes.

They cannot interrupt.

They cannot deal burst or spike damage. The damage they do deal is predictable and easily managed.

They cannot heal themselves UNLESS they are standing next to an opponent.

They cannot deal damage without energy. Their DPS tapers if they are subjected to a longer battle, they lack easily sustainable constant damage for a long engagement.

They are entirely dependant on both of the 'touch' attacks. If either attack is disabled, then the entire build falls apart.

Alot of other things are common to all 'Melee' type classes (ie... Snare, Hex, conditions, etc.) have already been pointed out.

In my honest sincere opinion... I don't think the few advantages they do have (ignore armor/evasion, etc) can make up for the many ways they suck.

Hole Sale Traps · Jun 16, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

but still its the Amount of damage they do in the amount of time that freaks people out even me useing my warrior i get blind sided by a touch ranger and always die

in my opinion thats the only reasin why people hate them so much

selber · Jun 16, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criminally Sane

As far as your examples of what fails to a touch ranger... Learn to play Guild Wars, please. No one build can kill every single other build. It's a game of builds, counters to builds and skill. It's also a game of teamwork, not "omfg I must solo you all! hahahaha ph34r my uberl33t build".

You miss the point. I never said TRs are overpowered. First: In RA/AB you really want to have a build that works versus nearly everything. However, you can only get close to this. And TR get very red engine close without much skill needed. It's a braindead build. You could probably train a monkey to run it. I took this Warriorbuild for some reason: Because it has much counters to everything: A very good interrupt, a snare and KD at the same time, a DOT, much dps, a speedbuff and a selfheal. To handle this all well, a certain amount of expierience and skill is needed while a TR doesn't require that "level of skill".

The second: Talking about another layer - fun. If it was just about mechanics and theoretical functions, - noone would play GW. If people don't have fun, they won't enjoy this game and therefore soon or later stop playing. We talk about RA/AB here, so forget all this teamplay stuff. RA is for 90% of the players a simple click & have fun area. Nothing more. Everything else has been said.

(As a sidenote: I know alot of very good players that left GW because of Iway - not because they lost, but because they just got sick fighting the same stupid build on 8/10 Maps over and over. If you have to take counters and more counters into your builds they get boring and at the end all just play "this one" build because it has as much counters as possible (or decide to run some gimmick build) to farm rating or fame.)

Robin_Anadri · Jun 17, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

They cannot apply conditions. This is most deeply noticed in the fact that they cannot apply a deep wound. They can TRANSFER conditions, but in of themselves they cannot apply a condition.

One quibble to an otherwise excellent post :P

Usually when I vamp I bring Signet of Agony to use on people stupid enough to stand still. 25 seconds of bleeding, whee!

Emri · Jun 17, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Touch Rangers are not overpowered.
Expertise should not be nerfed.

If you want TR's to be nerfed, try playing one. They aren't as godly as you think.
Kiting, Cripple > Touchies
Diversion > Touchies
Blackout > Touchies
Energy Denial > Touchies
Smart Person > Touchies
Any Type of Slow Hex > Touchies
Idiots < Touchies

Richie · Jun 17, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

With 5-9 TR's on you, why not use crip shot than epedemic? its so ezy to use that than run from them

SnipiousMax · Jun 17, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

One quibble to an otherwise excellent post :P

Usually when I vamp I bring Signet of Agony to use on people stupid enough to stand still. 25 seconds of bleeding, whee!

Yea, it's still a two stepper though!