Curse

Zui · Jun 10, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Random, I would actualy write a reply to what you've said in it's entirity, but it's clear your mind can not be changed, and it's also clear you can not even read and undestand what is being said, or choose not to do so. I'll give an example of this by quoting what was actualy said in a moment. There's another thread on Touch Rangers in Riverside Inn. I'm sure you'll enjoy posting on that one too trying to explain why somthing so easily countered is overpowered.

So in your last post to me you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

In your post you said that if you use a boon prot against a touch ranger, you're a scrub. The pure heal you get just from boon and divine favor is enough to overcome TR damage. Our TA team runs one boon prot and we routinely trash teams with 3 and 4 touch rangers. Oh and they're much more hardy in any other situation, which is why every decent TA team has a boon prot as their backbone.

So let's clarify exactly what was said relating to this in the entire course of our responces in this thread, in order of the first to be post to the last to be posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

RA is fundamentally different from other gametypes because you can't pick your teammates. Everywhere else you can make a team that can deal with touch rangers (boon prot, snares, whatever), but in RA you just kind of have to guess. It's certainly not ideal for everyone to bring anti-toucher all the time because it does limit your build. For instance when playing as a toucher I have yet to meet a warrior who could beat me. Many used knockdowns and snares. But without monk support, they still died. Does this mean we should all stop running warriors in RA, because warriors don't counter them in any way? Boon Prots are great against everything... but obviously it's not ideal for everyone to bring them. Again it all comes down to not being able to construct a team.

Please note the underlined sections where to me it sounded like you may have stated boonprots are a counter to touch rangers. Since I was unsure if this was what you meant, I responed like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Boonprots don't work very well agsint touch rangers, since life stealing is not damage. If you're going to take a boonprot to speceficaly counter touch rangers, you are a scrub.

Please note everything is underlined. Life stealing is not damage. Boonprots work mostly against damage, by reducing it and healing. This is mainly done with Reversal of Fortune, and with Guardian and Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond in some cases. You'll get a 121 point heal from any of those with the divine favor and divine boon bonuses, at 16 divine favor. There is no other heal from them applied against a toucher. From a skill like Word of Healing wich has no damage reduction component(or healing based on damage like RoF), you'll get a straight 190 point heal at 16 healing, providing the target is under 50% life. All for 5 energy, instead of 7 from the boonprot. Now we have the math clearly established, note how I said "If you're going to take a boonprot speceficaly to counter touch rangers, you are a scrub" Note underlined. You responed to this with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

Boonprots in RA are the furthest thing from scrubs. They're the strongest RA build you can possibly bring, assuming you're the only one on your team. And they beat touch rangers simply with big, energy-efficient healing. That's all there is to it.

Again note underlined. You were the one who misquoted me. They may be the strongest RA build, but certainly not because of touch rangers. They're very strong due to the amount of warriors, rangers, assassins, and elementalists who think they're pure spikers in RA, and the lack of shutdown you'll likely have on your team(aka you're the only one mitigating damage - by healing). I didin't disagree with you on that, at all. You go on to basicaly say they have energy-effecient healing against touch rangers. This is completely false. I responded with:

Quote:

Boonprots are extremely effective healing, however [u]a pure healer such as a WoH monk is far more effective against touch rangers due to the fact that alot of the power of the boonprot comes from the ability of protection skills to reduce damage, and in the case of reversal reduce damage and heal in addition to the DF and boon bonus. Next time actualy read and understand before replying. Thanks.

Hmm, so I responded to you by agreeing with you that boonprots were very effective healing. I then explained my reasoning for saying what I said, and gave a clear example. Your responce to this was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

In your post you said that if you use a boon prot against a touch ranger, you're a scrub. The pure heal you get just from boon and divine favor is enough to overcome TR damage. Our TA team runs one boon prot and we routinely trash teams with 3 and 4 touch rangers. Oh and they're much more hardy in any other situation, which is why every decent TA team has a boon prot as their backbone.

No one ever said the healing from boon wasn't enough to overcome Touch Ranger Damage. It requires mitigation by other players otherwise it'll drain your energy dry. Since all of what was said is convinently laid out here, you can go read it. I also did not say what you accuse me of saying. Read what was said. I also completely agreed with you they're far more useful in any other situation. You obviously failed to see that...

Just setting the record straight one one thing. If you actualy read all of what was said with everything, you'll find you've done this and simmilar things other places too. This is one of the reasons why it's pointless to reply to you, since what was said seems to have absolutly no value, as that's rarely what you respond to. By no means is this anything personal, I simply don't enjoy spending my time trying to have a discussion where who said what is mixed up and misquoted, especialy on a fourm, where it's right there above you(and you even quoted what you're responding to), all you have to do is read.

Last post on this thread,
Zui

Nightwish · Jun 10, 2006, 10:43 AM // 10:43

I only wish you can get statistics on the RA matches. If its possible, I am highly convinced that teams with a monk will have significant wins over those with TR instead.

No classes in this game is more effective than a pure support monk imo. TR is a good build but not overly powerful.

Try to gvg/HA without a monk and see how far you will go...The same cannot be said for other classes. There are numerous teams that do well without war,necro,mes,ranger,ritualist,ele or assassin.

Monks are the only class in the game that a serious team cannot go without.

P.S. Nevertheless, if monks are designed in such a way that their presence not essential, then nobody will play them

such a dilema

Tigers Anger · Jun 10, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Just to see how touchers do in HA I did it last night. A friend invited me to a Touch Ranger party last night for fun, with 7 touch rangers and a hp monk. It was fun, we got to courtyard a few times, unfortunately never to HoH but overall we did pretty well. On relic runs we all Dodge ran to their relic, at which point they moved further back seeing how fast we were approaching, then we killed their Ghostly Hero while they were blocking the entrances to their relic. Ghostly Hero's go down very fast with 7 touch rangers

Then we just easily ran the relic with our speed boosts.

Altar maps, we all ran to the middle and killed the Ghostly Hero because all their monks were far behind the Ghostly Hero was usually windborned and Warriors were sprinting in, and if we had time we would kill their warrior(s) too. We don't run it in a spike type of way, just spam calling a target then everyone runs and touches them :P. On one Courtyard match, it was 1 minute left and the blue team (some r9+ team) were holding with a ritualist and everyone on altar. The yellow team (some rank 500 guild with low morale) still hadn't gone in yet so we just rushed the Blue Ghostly Hero. He went down in a matter of seconds even with monk support and then the yellow Ghostly Hero came on and he got killed before he capped too but unfortunately our Hero couldn't be kept alive by 1 HP Monk and died to a few shock warriors

We beat WM International rank 72 in a fun Underworld match, they were very suprised that touchers beat them and i'm glad there was no noob calling after the match unlike certain other teams -_-. I think this build could become the new IWAY, an annoying build with lots of damage but their are some simple counters to it. We lost to an IWAY once because we got bodyblocked by ourselves and a mass amount of pets so even with all our plague touching and vamp touching the degen and damage killed us

Ward vs Foes was probably the biggest counter to us, as was Muddy Terrain vs Blood spikes. In the case of Spike vs us, we usually won because ranger spikes can't touch us through dodge/zojuns haste/whirling and Blood spike can't keep up with our killing power. Bonders on ranger spikes and the ritualist on blood spikes don't hinder us at all, so we leave them to waste their energy on futile skills :P. I can see this becoming a good build in tombs, but their are some big flaws to touching.

hasse · Jun 10, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulu123

The above means a warrior is pretty much screwed when confronted with a touch ranger. Either we cripple the touch ranger and start running away OR we attack him and die. I know a warrior should also run when times are bad. But does that mean we put our tails between our legs and run whenever we see a touch ranger?

Also, I think an appropriate nerf would be making those touch *skills* as *spells*. That way expertise wont be useless with ALL secondary profession skills, just these 2 or 3 overpowered spammable ones. Or atleast increase the recharge on them.

Ever heard of knockdown

There are a hundreds of ways to counter everything. I dont cry for nerf, id say adapt. A bummer about the prot-spirit though, could maybe be a room for a slight improvement.

hasse · Jun 10, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers Anger

Just to see how touchers do in HA I did it last night. A friend invited me to a Touch Ranger party last night for fun, with 7 touch rangers and a hp monk.

Yes touch ragers does wery well in HA atm. Funny build with 7rangers + 1monk, usally 5rangers, 2 monks and 1water ele who snares the current target.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 10, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Just to see what it was all about, I made myself a touch ranger and went to RA.

Well, they're fairly effective, I could kill any enemy who stood their ground against me except necros with life transfer - that was a tie. Monks, wars, and eles went down quite easy, although I'm not sure the TR was actually better at killing stuff than my warrior.

It was also very obvious what the weakness of touch rangers is: energy.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 10, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

We'll just assume 44 mana with Gladiators, a +5 mana axe/sword and a +12 focus.

Anyway, since you didn't bother to test out your build, I'll spell it out. Your skill chain costs 40 mana. It takes a full minute, with no other expenditures, to get that much energy under warrior regeneration. And you can cast it once, from full mana, before you're dry. Zealous can help, but really nothing is going to change the fact that warriors are not and never were cut out to be casting expensive spells. If you don't believe me, actually play this build.

Once again... ZOMG! You mean warriors don't do as good a job as spell casters than primary spellcaster classes??? I'm shocked, utterly shocked.

I'll say it again, this build was an example of displaying some fricking adaptability. Can you be ub3rl337 w4rr10r AND a decent secondary spell caster at the same time? Nope. It's a trade-off. However, you only need that spell chain *once* to finish a toucher. It's just a sample of how your warrior primary can easily kill a vampire 1v1, since that seems to be all you care about.

Quote:

So what you're telling me, is that due to the touch ranger, I shouldn't play warriors in RA? You see, that's a balance problem, when your only option is to stop playing a class altogether, or turn it into some ungodly retarded monstrosity that can be effective 15 seconds out of every minute.

No, what I am telling you is - "Know your limitations and work within them." When I monk, I know that I have tissue paper armor and very limited potential to cause damage. Therefore, I don't charge the tank 1v1. In fact, I know that a determined warrior is one of the largest threats I face, so I let other team members who are more qualified to handle the warrior deal with it. You're used to being the big bad wolf in the arenas, now there's a build that can take you down despite your strengths. So *let* the dedicated Illusion mesmer take down the toucher. Or the cripshot ranger. Or the life transfer/barbed signet/plague sending necromancer.

But what's that? It's RA so you don't know that you'll have those types on your team? Well, duh. It's RA. You rolls your dice, you takes your chances. You want predictability, go play in TA/HA.

But what the touch ranger does mean is that you can no longer count on being able to personally dispatch whatever build you encounter. If you could - then your build would be overpowered. It's this little thing called *balance* that the Anet devs have worked very hard to maintain. I think it's been very well established in this threat that touch rangers are far from invincible. If anything, their presence putting the fear of Grenth into warriors is much-needed breath of balance into the game.

Quote:

<snipped more arrogant point-missing blather about how warriors aren't spellcasters>

You're useful to your team by using shutdown skills or doing damage. When kiting, you stop doing those things, therefore it reduces your usefulness to the team. I don't think it's such a difficult concept.

The difficult concept for you to understand is that kiting *is* a shutdown skill. Not to mention an important tactic in coordinated teamwork PvP. Since teamwork isn't your thing, I figure you haven't grasped this. I'll try to break it down to easily digested chunks for you.

If you are engaging a major threat, such as a vampire, and can get them to chase you, they aren't threatening the rest of your team, because they're busy chasing you.

If you're kiting, you control their movement. Pull them far from their support team. Pull them through the trapfield that the ranger on your team has laid while the enemy you're kiting was distracted chasing you. Pull them toward your team so you can gang up on them. Pull them within range of your team's snare/degen specialist and turn the tables on them.

They're too smart to follow you into a trap/to your team/away from their team? Fine, they break off pursuit and you can then go target somebody else. Meanwhile they were busy chasing you until they broke off, and now must go seek another target, probably having to run a bit to get back into the thick of things. Pretty effective shutdown.

Quote:

<snip, blah-blah-blah warriors aren't casters I wouldn't get the point if it was engraved on stone tablets and hand delivered by 72 naked virgins blah-blah-blah>

Counters to touch rangers can be effective on other builds. But you say counters to other builds are just as effective on touch rangers? Some are, like hex snares, but that's a completely hollow statement. The point is the counters for touch rangers are essentially a subset of counters to warriors, bow rangers and assassins. For instance, Blind, Weakness, the whole Curses line, evasive skills, condition-based degen and specific mesmer skills like sympathetic visage or empathy will generally counter those classes, while failing against touch rangers. The only special weakness is energy denial, which comes from a narrow range of skills not often seen in RA due to dom mesmers not being particularly strong without support, which you can only pray for in RA. Wither and maliase actually do worse against them because they can focus swap it off.

Boy, howdy, that'd be a convincing argument, if it wasn't suffused with bovine excrement.

"Counters to touch rangers are essentially a subset of counters to warriors, bow rangers, and assassins"? Nope. No wonder you consistently fail if you insist on treating a touch ranger like a classic melee class. Does an elementalist, monk, ritualist, necromancer or mesmer care if you blind them, weaken them, or throw up an evasion stance? Nope. Neither do touch rangers, because they are PB range casters. A touch ranger is a caster who can stand toe to toe with a warrior because they have hellacious self healing if it's not countered. That's no different than earth ele running Armor of Earth and Kinetic Armor, spamming Stone Daggers with Aura of Restoration up. Unless you counter their defense, you're not going to take them down.

"Some are, like hex snares, but that's a completely hollow statement. " and "For instance, Blind, Weakness ... while failing against touch rangers."
So, a hollow statement would be something that contradicts your worldview? Of course hex snares are effective, because they're effective versus *everybody* except monks while spellbreaker is up, eles while obsidian flesh is up, and assassins while shroud of silence is up. But those are extreme conditions. As for your litany of melee counters, see above. The touch ranger is not a melee build. You also mixed in "condition-based degen" as something not effective versus touch rangers. Bull hockey. Plague Touch does not save you from condition based degen. It can mitigate it, but only if you are in...*drum roll* Touch range! If you're snared from a hex or crippled, you can't touch off the conditions. Apply Poison + Crippling Shot/Pin Down + Hunter's Shot + Not Standing There Like A Moron To Be Plague Touched = dead touch ranger.

"The only special weakness is energy denial.."
What? It's been well established that energy is only *one* weakness of touch rangers. They have no self-heal other than their vamp skills. They have no hex removal. They have severely limited condition removal, only useful for punishing warriors stupid enough to inflict bleeding in touch range. They have to BE IN TOUCH RANGE, making them especially susceptible to kiting. In fact, the only thing that makes this a viable build at all is that most people in RA/AB are too inexperienced/inflexible and/or stupid to take advantage of these weaknesses.

Quote:

Huh really, that's what you suspect of me. I guess you didn't read earlier in the thread when I mentioned that Plauge Touch was an incredibly powerful skill in RA and that I would always hesitate to take it out for anything else. That implies W/N, not W/Mo. And I'm known to say GG after a fight, not pelvic thrust.

Yes, that's really what I think of you. All I have to go on is your posts. The fact that you may run /N is irrelevant. Arrogant wammo is an attitude, and you broadcast it.

Quote:

It's true that some of the builds I run can't counter touch rangers, but that's just because few builds do. Build diversity is something I like to see in RA, and touch rangers tend to stifle it. It's not really a vendetta or anything.

I find it laughable that you insist that build diversity is important to you, yet you flame all over any suggestion that you deviate from your ub3rl337 w4rr10r skill set. Touch rangers will either force people to learn counters and tactics, or quit playing RA. Either of these is good. The obstinate ones will continue to get pwnt, which is also good, because I like a good laugh.

Quote:

<snip, blah, blah, if u think u r a gud w4rr10r u hav3 to run th1s c00k13 cu++3r bu!1d, blah, blah>

No comment, really, just included for completeness.

Talk to the hand.

JimmyDean · Jun 12, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Just to see what it was all about, I made myself a touch ranger and went to RA.

Well, they're fairly effective, I could kill any enemy who stood their ground against me except necros with life transfer - that was a tie. Monks, wars, and eles went down quite easy, although I'm not sure the TR was actually better at killing stuff than my warrior.

It was also very obvious what the weakness of touch rangers is: energy.

Offering Of Blood fixes that very neatly.

Niosisw · Jun 12, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Ok, so lets see....A Primary profession's attribute shouldnt be useful on secondary skills?

So essentially you want to destroy the flexibility and build synergies that makes Guild Wars unique?

Rofl @ that comment........ (I disagree with the comment)

OH NO! Expertise only affects Ranger skills!?? YOU HAVE KILLED GUILD WARS!!!! NOOOOOOOOO!

Sorry, but that's overexagurating (dear god, spelling).

If you read the description of Expertise... it says:

For each rank in expertise, the energy cost of your attack skills, Preparations*, and traps* decreases by 4%.

Now when I was beggining the game, my logic assumed that expertise only affected ranger skills, because to me, it just made sense. Notice in the above, the stars are things that RANGERS have, if they wanted some synergy like the touch ranger, they would have also put hexes and curses in there, logically speaking.

Here's another way to look at it, a simpler way. Take a look at the name of the class.

RANGER

Derived from the word, RANGE. Another thing my logic assumes... they were meant to be played from a RANGE away?

I know the above statement isn't always true, but sorry, I don't think Touch Rangers were meant to be in the game, period.

(Not saying that you wanted them, lyra)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

The difficult concept for you to understand is that kiting *is* a shutdown skill.

Yes, it effectively shuts down you, and the Touch Ranger. It's a farfetched concept to put kiting and a skill like "blackout" in the same category.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

What? It's been well established that energy is only *one* weakness of touch rangers. They have no self-heal other than their vamp skills. They have no hex removal. They have severely limited condition removal, only useful for punishing warriors stupid enough to inflict bleeding in touch range. They have to BE IN TOUCH RANGE, making them especially susceptible to kiting. In fact, the only thing that makes this a viable build at all is that most people in RA/AB are too inexperienced/inflexible and/or stupid to take advantage of these weaknesses.

As far as the weaknesses you listed.... those are pretty generic to say the least.

Warriors and rangers and assassins have a plethora of counters to say the least.

Casters also have a fair list, weak armor being A HUGE, generally constant one.

Generally even when you combine the proffessions, the build suffers from a much larger array of weaknesses than the Toucher, because they are generally either CASTING(which has a LOT of counters) OR doing physical dmg(which has a LOT of counters).

The Touch ranger is doing neither.

Therefore, NERF.

And before you toss some other build that doesn't cast or do phys dmg in my face, I'm fairly sure it has a much larger amount of counters. I'm also excluding support classes because they are kinda out of the consideration.

lyra_song · Jun 12, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Rofl @ that comment........ (I disagree with the comment)

OH NO! Expertise only affects Ranger skills!?? YOU HAVE KILLED GUILD WARS!!!! NOOOOOOOOO!

Sorry, but that's overexagurating (dear god, spelling).

If you read the description of Expertise... it says:

For each rank in expertise, the energy cost of your attack skills, Preparations*, and traps* decreases by 4%.

Now when I was beggining the game, my logic assumed that expertise only affected ranger skills, because to me, it just made sense. Notice in the above, the stars are things that RANGERS have, if they wanted some synergy like the touch ranger, they would have also put hexes and curses in there, logically speaking.

Here's another way to look at it, a simpler way. Take a look at the name of the class.

RANGER

Derived from the word, RANGE. Another thing my logic assumes... they were meant to be played from a RANGE away?

I know the above statement isn't always true, but sorry, I don't think Touch Rangers were meant to be in the game, period.

(Not saying that you wanted them, lyra)

I played a pre-factions Touch Ranger. Ive dealt with Factions Touch Rangers.

They are not overpowered. They are just ANNOYING.

Touch rangers are VERY limited in their use. They are a super specialized build.

Expertise does reduce costs of some non-ranger skills.

This is not unlike the Elementalist who has a huge energy storage spamming Heal Party.

Or a Necromancer taking advantage of their quick regen through soul reaping to spam spells.

I have already posted before that expertise requires a rewrite of its description to help players gain awareness of the possibilities of using a ranger.

Niosisw · Jun 12, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

They are not overpowered.

around 60 dps without using a spell or an attack, and healing 60 every sec? I disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Touch Rangers are VERY limited in their use.

I disagree

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Expertise does reduce costs of some non-ranger skills.

Indeed, it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

This is not unlike the Elementalist who has a huge energy storage spamming Heal Party.

Yes it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Or a Necromancer taking advantage of their quick regen through soul reaping to spam spells.

Yes it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I have already posted before that expertise requires a rewrite of its description to help players gain awareness of the possibilities of using a ranger.

Ok, but the description now has the general undertone that it only works with rangers. I realize this isn't true, but that's just the undertone.

Amarth d'Arc · Jun 12, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

R/N = Ranger Noob

samifly · Jun 12, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Here's another way to look at it, a simpler way. Take a look at the name of the class.

RANGER

Derived from the word, RANGE. Another thing my logic assumes... they were meant to be played from a RANGE away?

umm....pets are not ranged.....
and btw - if you nerf xpertise, you would be putting on limits no other primary has. strengh, fast casting, spawning power, soul reaping, energy storage, etc... all work with other skills then the profession. thats why we have secondaries. limiting it just for rangers would be totally uncalled for, and unfair to them.

Undead Preacher · Jun 12, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amarth d'Arc

R/N = Ranger Noob

thats a pretty bold statement..

R/N Vamps are getting a bad "rep" already....and the peoples outcry for a NERF is simply ridiculous... No I don't play a touch ranger, and no I don't believe we need them nerfed.... there are SEVERAL ways to counter and kill a touch ranger, the builds not exactly new... it just made a comeback with factions. I'm glad its back, just have to be prepared for yet 1 more possiblity!

SnipiousMax · Jun 12, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Rofl @ that comment........ (I disagree with the comment)

OH NO! Expertise only affects Ranger skills!?? YOU HAVE KILLED GUILD WARS!!!! NOOOOOOOOO!

Okay, it is ridiculous to imply that expetise should only affect ranger skills. That would essentialy mean, that Ranger's are limited to their primary alone.... There just wouldn't be a point in using any secondaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Now when I was beggining the game, my logic assumed that expertise only affected ranger skills, because to me, it just made sense. Notice in the above, the stars are things that RANGERS have, if they wanted some synergy like the touch ranger, they would have also put hexes and curses in there, logically speaking.

All that expertise suffers from is poor description. It does what it was intended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Here's another way to look at it, a simpler way. Take a look at the name of the class.

RANGER

Derived from the word, RANGE. Another thing my logic assumes... they were meant to be played from a RANGE away?

Since we're appealing to logic here....

From dictionary.com

rang·er
n.
1.) A wanderer; a rover.
2.) A member of an armed troop employed in patrolling a specific region.
3.) Ranger A member of a group of U.S. soldiers specially trained for making raids either on foot, in ground vehicles, or by airlift.
4.) A warden employed to maintain and protect a natural area, such as a forest or park.
5.) Chiefly British. The keeper of a royal forest or park.

I'd point out that it doesn't mention a blinking thing about 'ranged attacks'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

As far as the weaknesses you listed.... those are pretty generic to say the least.

Which just means you don't have to bring anything special to counter them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Warriors and rangers and assassins have a plethora of counters to say the least.

And yet... somehow, warriors and rangers make it into high end PvP when Touchers don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Casters also have a fair list, weak armor being A HUGE, generally constant one.

How much armor do you think a Ranger has? Since they're touchers, they have to have druids. Which means they have a whopping total of +10 armor over a caster!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

Generally even when you combine the proffessions, the build suffers from a much larger array of weaknesses than the Toucher, because they are generally either CASTING(which has a LOT of counters) OR doing physical dmg(which has a LOT of counters).

The Touch ranger is doing neither.

Therefore, NERF.

Then I propose we nerf everything that is not a spell or physical damage, as it is all obviously overpowered and there is no way to counter it!

Robin_Anadri · Jun 12, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

*giggle*

I am soooooo done arguing with teh st00p1d.

Quick review of the facts:

Despite suffering from a poorly-worded description, Expertise is working as designed and exactly as Anet intended.
Life stealing has always been different from damage, and has always ignored armor.
Anet is not stupid. They didn't forget about Vampiric Touch and Touch of Agony when they were formulating the Factions Blood Magic skills, any more than the rest of the doubled skills are "mistakes." Quite obviously, they chose to provide players who have both chapters the option of doubling some skills, adding a different dynamic to game play, ie., the option of trading one of your precious 8 skill slots for the ability to repeat a particular attack/effect without waiting on recharge or depending on mesmer/elementalist skill doubling. Perhaps that was even part of the thought process - "Why not give non-mesmers and non-elementalists a chance to double some skills?"
Touch rangers are not new with Factions, they're merely more common now. Counters already existed prior to Factions, and those same counters are just as effective now.
Touch rangers cannot and will not dominate even medium-range PvP. They are laughed at and merrily pwned in Team Arenas, Hero's Ascent, and GvG. Their ephemeral dominance in Alliance Battles is waning as more and more people learn the importance of snares and hex- and condition-based degen, and discover just how much fun it is to pwn the vampires, and incidentally how effective those skills are at thwarting every other build.
An actual Anet employee, Gaile Grey, has stated that she doesn't see a need for a nerf. (specifically this log image)
Just because a tactic/build requires you to change your tactics to counter it doesn't mean it's overpowered. That's actually how it's supposed to work, it prevents the metagame from getting stale.

Toodles.

RandomEngy · Jun 14, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Been sort of busy lately, have not gotten around to this topic.

Zui: My whole point is that yes, boon prots do better against standard damage than lifesteal damage, but they still do enough healing to effectively combat touch damage and win a match. Experience bears me out on this one and I don't know what else to say about it.

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Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Once again... ZOMG! You mean warriors don't do as good a job as spell casters than primary spellcaster classes??? I'm shocked, utterly shocked.

I'll say it again, this build was an example of displaying some fricking adaptability. Can you be ub3rl337 w4rr10r AND a decent secondary spell caster at the same time? Nope. It's a trade-off. However, you only need that spell chain *once* to finish a toucher. It's just a sample of how your warrior primary can easily kill a vampire 1v1, since that seems to be all you care about.

So in 1v1 where you know your opponent ahead of time (which, despite what you say I never assumed), it works. In the actual, real landscape of RA, the build you proposed is demonstrably terrible. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you proposed that build not as a serious RA build but as a demonstration of how silly and futile it is for a warrior to try and "adapt" to touch rangers in RA. Even though you originally said that it would be easy for warriors to do so.

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No, what I am telling you is - "Know your limitations and work within them." When I monk, I know that I have tissue paper armor and very limited potential to cause damage. Therefore, I don't charge the tank 1v1. In fact, I know that a determined warrior is one of the largest threats I face, so I let other team members who are more qualified to handle the warrior deal with it. You're used to being the big bad wolf in the arenas, now there's a build that can take you down despite your strengths. So *let* the dedicated Illusion mesmer take down the toucher. Or the cripshot ranger. Or the life transfer/barbed signet/plague sending necromancer.

But what's that? It's RA so you don't know that you'll have those types on your team? Well, duh. It's RA. You rolls your dice, you takes your chances. You want predictability, go play in TA/HA.

It's random, but game balance still applies. Warrior/Bow Ranger/Assassin damage can be quite devastating but it just so happens that there's a wide variety of skills to pick from, from every class, that can allow you to cope, allowing a wide variety of builds that will work well with the majority of RA teams.

However Lifesteal damage is normally balanced because it ignores most defenses but comes at the cost of reduced DPS through recharge or energy limitations. When the energy limitation is removed via a loophole, it does much more damage than it should, given the lack of counters. Availability and cost of counters are very important in determining if a skill is balanced or not, especially when you cannot craft a team build that sacrifices very little to combat it. This is an aspect of game balance that you continuously ignore.

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But what the touch ranger does mean is that you can no longer count on being able to personally dispatch whatever build you encounter. If you could - then your build would be overpowered. It's this little thing called *balance* that the Anet devs have worked very hard to maintain. I think it's been very well established in this threat that touch rangers are far from invincible. If anything, their presence putting the fear of Grenth into warriors is much-needed breath of balance into the game.

I assure you, you don't need a touch ranger to effectively fight a warrior in RA. It's not that they're good against warriors, that's par for the course. It's that they're good against a lot of stuff, moreso than other builds.

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The difficult concept for you to understand is that kiting *is* a shutdown skill. Not to mention an important tactic in coordinated teamwork PvP. Since teamwork isn't your thing, I figure you haven't grasped this. I'll try to break it down to easily digested chunks for you.

If you are engaging a major threat, such as a vampire, and can get them to chase you, they aren't threatening the rest of your team, because they're busy chasing you.

If you're kiting, you control their movement. Pull them far from their support team. Pull them through the trapfield that the ranger on your team has laid while the enemy you're kiting was distracted chasing you. Pull them toward your team so you can gang up on them. Pull them within range of your team's snare/degen specialist and turn the tables on them.

They're too smart to follow you into a trap/to your team/away from their team? Fine, they break off pursuit and you can then go target somebody else. Meanwhile they were busy chasing you until they broke off, and now must go seek another target, probably having to run a bit to get back into the thick of things. Pretty effective shutdown.

When a touch ranger chases you, true, they aren't a threat to the rest of your team. But they are still a threat to you, while you're a threat to no one. I still think it's a simple concept to grasp.

Anyway I'd say I have a trapper on my team at the most one in every 15 matches. I'm not sure why you're assuming they are standard. In any case, if you do, it isn't a special weakness of touch rangers, all melee classes share it. And since my whole argument is that touch rangers have fewer counters, I fail to see how this example is relevant.

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Boy, howdy, that'd be a convincing argument, if it wasn't suffused with bovine excrement.

"Counters to touch rangers are essentially a subset of counters to warriors, bow rangers, and assassins"? Nope. No wonder you consistently fail if you insist on treating a touch ranger like a classic melee class. Does an elementalist, monk, ritualist, necromancer or mesmer care if you blind them, weaken them, or throw up an evasion stance? Nope. Neither do touch rangers, because they are PB range casters. A touch ranger is a caster who can stand toe to toe with a warrior because they have hellacious self healing if it's not countered. That's no different than earth ele running Armor of Earth and Kinetic Armor, spamming Stone Daggers with Aura of Restoration up. Unless you counter their defense, you're not going to take them down.

It might be the same concept, but the numbers are way different. You're doing less damage and getting far less healing. In practice, that makes all the difference in the world. Also you try and classify them as "PB range casters," yet they don't cast any spells, thus they don't care about the myriad of anti-spell skills out there. They don't really fit into any other category, in terms of what counters are effective.

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"Some are, like hex snares, but that's a completely hollow statement. " and "For instance, Blind, Weakness ... while failing against touch rangers."
So, a hollow statement would be something that contradicts your worldview? Of course hex snares are effective, because they're effective versus *everybody* except monks while spellbreaker is up, eles while obsidian flesh is up, and assassins while shroud of silence is up. But those are extreme conditions. As for your litany of melee counters, see above. The touch ranger is not a melee build. You also mixed in "condition-based degen" as something not effective versus touch rangers. Bull hockey. Plague Touch does not save you from condition based degen. It can mitigate it, but only if you are in...*drum roll* Touch range! If you're snared from a hex or crippled, you can't touch off the conditions. Apply Poison + Crippling Shot/Pin Down + Hunter's Shot + Not Standing There Like A Moron To Be Plague Touched = dead touch ranger.

And you say hex snares are good against everybody, bar Spell Breaker and Obsidian Flesh. I'm guessing you forgot about hex removal/prevention? And some characters don't really care if they're hex snared. Bow rangers with evasive stances or monks sitting in a ward or chain-casting guardian don't really need to kite. But let's go with it and assume hex snares really are as uncounterable as you make them out to be, and that they're great against everything. That makes the statement "Touch rangers are not overpowered because they are beaten by hex snares" even more hollow.

And yes, a covered, non blockable cripple is one of the weaknesses of touch rangers. As I have repeated may times, this is not relevant. Why are we going over this again?

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"The only special weakness is energy denial.."
What? It's been well established that energy is only *one* weakness of touch rangers. They have no self-heal other than their vamp skills. They have no hex removal. They have severely limited condition removal, only useful for punishing warriors stupid enough to inflict bleeding in touch range. They have to BE IN TOUCH RANGE, making them especially susceptible to kiting. In fact, the only thing that makes this a viable build at all is that most people in RA/AB are too inexperienced/inflexible and/or stupid to take advantage of these weaknesses.

The key word here is "special". Warriors and non-AoD assassins have basically all of the other weaknessess, including your specially defined "limited condition removal". They don't have hex removal, sure, but then again they don't care about most hexes. And damage-oriented characters rarely opt to take hex removal, even though they have the chance, so touch rangers not being able to take hex removal seems pretty nitpicky to me.

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Yes, that's really what I think of you. All I have to go on is your posts. The fact that you may run /N is irrelevant. Arrogant wammo is an attitude, and you broadcast it.

Yet you did not say I had the attitude of a wammo, you said I was a wammo, and that I jeer at people that I beat. That was false, and I called you on it. If you're just calling me arrogant I'm okay with that. It's a title you can apply to anyone who disagrees with you.

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I find it laughable that you insist that build diversity is important to you, yet you flame all over any suggestion that you deviate from your ub3rl337 w4rr10r skill set. Touch rangers will either force people to learn counters and tactics, or quit playing RA. Either of these is good. The obstinate ones will continue to get pwnt, which is also good, because I like a good laugh.

Hey kids! Want to know how to defend anything in guild wars against a skill rebalance? Use this helpful template and you'll be all set!

<build name> will either force people to learn counters and tactics, or quit playing <arena name>. Either of these is good. The obstinate ones will continue to get pwnt, which is also good, because I like a good laugh.

For instance "Grenth's Balance guild lord ganking" and "GvG", or perhaps "Ether Renewal smiters" or "Spirit Spamming" and "tombs".

Holy smokes! It looks like we should have just kept Guild Wars as it was at release!

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No comment, really, just included for completeness.

Talk to the hand.

It's funny because we haven't gone over it already.

Wait no, I think we have.

Cassie McKnight · Jun 14, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Anything overly popular is by definition overpowerd otherwise why would it be so popular?
It can be counterd easily? really the fact that you have make a specail build to counter it means it's overpowered.

Having 5-6 viable builds in game with so many skills and classes already is rediculous.
Might as well just get rid of all skills and class combo's that arn't viable and have everyone with exactly the same 3-4 builds.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 14, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

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Originally Posted by RandomEngy

So in 1v1 where you know your opponent ahead of time (which, despite what you say I never assumed), it works. In the actual, real landscape of RA, the build you proposed is demonstrably terrible...
<snip, blah-blah-blah, once again I wouldn't get the point if it was tattooed backwards on my forehead and you handed me a mirror, I know the RA is the only thing that counts despite all evidence to the contrary, the only possible combat model is 1v1 and all game mechanics stem from that, blah-blah-whine-cry-bitch-sniffle>

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Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

*giggle*

I am soooooo done arguing with teh st00p1d.

Talk to the hand.

RandomEngy · Jun 15, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

I guess you didn't read the parts where I systematically destroyed your argument? And you keep on saying I assume 1v1 when that is clearly not the case.

If you're tired of posting that's okay, but just calling my points "stupid" and declaring that you win doesn't really accomplish anything.