Curse

lyra_song · Jun 05, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by J3mo

Like that is on everyone's skillbar

Like you can counter a SS necro with your full bar. Like you can counter a hammer war, axe war, sword war, e-denial mesmer, shock ele, blood spiker, smiter, etc ALL BY YOURSELF.

Point of the matter. you can counter every build all the time.

Teh Monkeys · Jun 05, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Snare, drain, degen, kite, kill.

What's the problem, people?

Theus · Jun 05, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...33&postcount=9

My point exactly. Nerfing either expertise OR the touch skills is very SHORT SIGHTED.

IF and IF Anet decides that the touch ranger build is TOO powerful (which i dont believe it is, and trust me, ive met lots of touch rangers, they LOVE alliance battle) then they need to come up with a reasonable compromise between the "skills" and expertise, because this is a VERY broad spectrum that both these categories cover.

Removing touch skills from expertise is non-sensical because THROW DIRT is an expertise skill and a touch skill. VOILA.

How can you make exceptions to nerf 2 specific touch skills? That in itself would be imbalanced.

Simply change the vampiric touch skills(Excluding Vampiric Gaze,since it's fine as a skill)To attack skills,that way expertise still affects them,but you can still effectively avoid the damage through blinding,stances,and enchantments.

zulu123 · Jun 05, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I love repeating myself.

And I love correcting people again and again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

What is the purpose of each primary attribute? Answer yourself this question.

Monk: Divine Favor = More healing
Warrior: Strength = More Damage
Elementalist: Energy Storage = More energy for spells, enchants, hexes
Necromancer: Soul Reaping = Fast energy recovery
Mesmer: Fast Casting = Fast spell casting for interrupts/annoyance
Ranger: Expertise = Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes.

Here's a Guild Wars description of Divine Favor the attribute. "For each rank of Divine Favor, allies are healed for 3.2 whenever you cast Monk spells on them. Several Monk skills, especially spells relating to energy gain and healing, become more effective with a higher Divine Favor." Do you know what that means? That DF is basically useless for any secondary profession skill/spell unlike Expertise.

So basically I am still waiting to see an example of that monstrous synergy between DF and some secondary profession skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I could make the same arguement that Necros and Elementalists primaries need to be nerfed because they can spam heal party way better than most heal monks can.

Ok lets look at how Expertise affects Vampiric Bite and Vampiric Touch. VB and VT both need 15 energy, 3/4 casting time, and heres the killer 2 secs recharge.

Expertise at 16 reduces the energy cost of VB and VT from 15 to 6 which makes them utterly and ridiculously spammable. Now you can do 65 dmg per second with them.

How does Soul Reaping compare to this? So at 16 SR you can get 16 energy everytime an enemy dies in RA. Heal party needs 15 energy, 2 sec casting time and 2 sec recharge. So you get one free heal party everytime an enemy dies right? BIG WHoopity Doo you are so unbeatable now that you got 4 free Heal party casts in RA!!! Seriously this totally compares with what Expertise does to Vampiric Bite and Vampiric Touch.

Oh and for the record I am not even asking for a nerf to the Expertise attribute. I was just answering to that ridiculous post earlier (not by you) that was trying to show how Divine Favor is as good as Expertise.

IllusiveMind · Jun 05, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I see it... I see ANET nerfing Touch Rangers due to massive complaining and whinning...

Stabber · Jun 05, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Simply change the vampiric touch skills(Excluding Vampiric Gaze,since it's fine as a skill)To attack skills,that way expertise still affects them,but you can still effectively avoid the damage through blinding,stances,and enchantments.

I hope Arena Net is not listening to this rubbish idea that has spread through the game like wildfire. There is absolutely no justification for making life stealing attack skills. Attacks are supposed to cause damage, meet armor, be affected by protective enchantments, and have variable ranges (with criticals).

Touch skills are fine as they are, though I wouldn't be averse to giving them their own category and tailoring counters specifically for them in future campaigns. (I'm using "Can't Touch This!")

Also, Vampiric Gaze is a spell. Check your local listings.

MelechRic · Jun 05, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Touch rangers are just a symptom of the huge number of new PvP players we have with the Factions campaign. A lot of people have never experienced anything like a touch ranger.

Within a few weeks two things will happen:

1. Newer PvP players will learn how to avoid getting fingered.
2. Touch rangers will go out of vogue because it's a fragile build that's only fun for about two weeks before it gets boring.

Saider maul · Jun 05, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

touch ranger is way over powered but is only viable in pvp for faction farming.
if their smart and want fast kills. they use whirling defense as protection and add greniths balance. let them hit you a few times then slam them with it and touch away. I have done this and the little extra patience to unleash your build is well worth the effort when using greniths balance.
A totally skilless and cowardly PUG build. where is the challenge in farming faction.

touch ranger are overpowered in pvp. nerf them.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 05, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

This thread makes me lol, for several different reasons. One, there are already 5-6 topics about touch rangers. Search button is your friend. "Search is down". Meh, there are topics to nerf them on the first page of both Gladiator's Arena and Sardelac. You didn't see them, fine.

Two, in every one of those topics, the ways to defeat them are listed. Also, Lyra linked to one of the topics already in this thread, describing exactly how to defeat them. Learn to read.

Three, people who whine about touch rangers have obviously never played one, it's far from "spam all day, no worries, you can heal!11". People who kite pose a problem, even with Dodge. Sure, you can still touch them... about a third as often as you would if they stood still. Also, you require more than half your energy to kill one person. Even with OoB, you'll find that your energy runs out faster than you'd expect.

Four, touch rangers are only a problem in RA. Teams with decent monks are a problem in RA. Teams with decent mesmers are a problem in RA. Teams with any decent combination of people are a problem in RA. Why? Because people who play in RA tend to be idiots, not follow calls, not bring res, etc. Not all who do are, but a lot of people. "They hurt in alliance battle too" lol... why don't I hear anyone bitching about FoC/ranger/other spikes in alliance battle, they're far more lethal, unless you're a moron who can't kite a melee character.

Five, touch rangers are the IWAY of RA. If you lose to it, you either weren't prepared or are a mediocre player. And since they're obviously popular builds, not bringing any counters is somewhat dumb, imo. So that leaves mediocre player. ;p

Shadow-Hunter · Jun 05, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Well, i did play as a touch ranger just after Factions came out... (it got kinda borring now where so many ppl use it).
I do belive that the 2 torchs is a little overpowered.. Seeing how you can dish out around 65 dmg a sec (that is complitely impossible to lower, even with stuff like prot spirit, block stances, and defence boostes) and 65 heal a sec, along with some of the hardest energy management you can get..
Empathy, and backfire does nothing at all, nor does blind or stuff like Wards, hexes that makes you miss.. SS can do some dmg to you, but a 37 dmg SS still leaves the toucher with 28 heal a sec...

And all this come in a pack of only 3 skills.. witch means the remaining 5 skills can be used for all kind of deffenciv stuff, that along with the massiv heal from the touches make you harder to take down that most PvP warriors..

with this said.. Then i dont think they should make a complite nerf of expertise or anything like that.. as it would hurt alot of other stuff... instead then i belive that the recharge should be made a little longer.. Not like a huge recharge.. But something like 5 sec.. vamp gaze has 5 sec far as i remember... So why shouldent the 2 torches have that? ... I mean, you got 2 of them.. you can still use one every 2,5sec.. Using it more would be kinda, meh, seeing how i dont belive any1 made the game so the gamers should just press 1 and 2 all the time.. The build req like no skill at all to use, and i belive that a build that has so few weaknesses and so many things that its nearly immortal against should requere a little more skill to use at least.. So give it a little boost in the recharge and see how it goes..

~Shadow

floplag · Jun 05, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

the touch ranger is just another in a long line of cookie cutter "oh my god i read a forum" builds that .. while effective, can be countered if you think a little

the amusing part here is that the reason, in my opinion, that is is so effective is the lack of natural enemies.. there are far fewer of the class needed to shut it down, than there are of them

ill give you a hint peeps .. wanna stop one, ask a mesmer, i laugh when i see them coming

Zui · Jun 05, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Not overpowered. It beats bad teams, and bad players. That's just about all it does. There are a few threads in Gladiator's Arena about it... Go read them.

Retribution · Jun 05, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

To the fool (forgot his name) crying for the nerf of expertise, lets nerf energy storage because it applies even when you're using secondary class skills *gasp*. Or lets nerf fast casting because you can fast cast air magic *OMGNERFPLZ*. Lets nerf expertise because my healing hands don't save me and my sever artery+gash get reversed *wahh*. Stop bitching and crying for a nerf.

Xanthar · Jun 05, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

When you get 7 touch rangers after you (that happened to me today in AB...), there is absolutly NO way to counter that many of them, which gets really darn annoying...

Wow! I bet your uberbuild can survive seven shock warriors or seven air spikers, since you use this number of touch rangers as an example of something that is especially annoying...

The theoretical damage output of a touch ranger aside, my practical experience (they are all the rage in AB, and I mostly monk there) is that they have a feeble damage output if kited even a little bit. If you try to stand up to them they get a bit more dangerous, but since their skills never interrupt or knockdown, they still present a rather weak threat - They do not inhibit any casting or attacks and a monk readily outheals one or two of them.

I find that ignoring touchies usually makes them go away - Provided you have a team that knows how to kite you will be left with an unsupported touchie that can easily be taken down by a team of four.

Point in fact, I was recently in TA with a balanced team (coming in from RA team, no less) and met a team of three touchies and a monk. We got a flawless from them. Perhaps not a great feat, but an indication that touch rangers perhaps are a bit more feared than they need be.

zulu123 · Jun 05, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Monkeys

Snare, drain, degen, kite, kill.

What's the problem, people?

The same exact thing can be said of warriors also becuase even they have to operate in touch range. The counters given above will kill a warrior also, right? Touch rangers use defenses like escape, whirling defense, etc which have some similarities to defense a warrior uses. So we can safely say a touch ranger can be compared to warriors to some degree, right?

With that said please give me a warrior build that uses a couple of skills that take only 6 energy to activate and can do 65 damage per second and 65 healing per activation of those skills.

We will observe the fact that there are a lot MORE anti-warrior builds because of throw dirt, enfeeble, SS, empathy, reckless haste, price of failure, insidious parasite, etc, etc (note that all of these are useless against a touch ranger). A touch ranger has +3 energy regen as compared to warriors +2 energy regen. Also a touch ranger will have +12 max energy, +1 energy regen because of the Druid's set (as compared to the warriors +8 max energy because of Gald's set) and he will be holding a necro wand/focus that give him +17 energy.

lightblade · Jun 05, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Treat touch ranger as another caster

the 2 touch is 1 second cast, enough time to interupt it

E-denial works great

Mustache Mayhem · Jun 05, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I used to micheal jackson guys in arena last year.. was pretty fun build- with bite from factions I can see how people would think it's overpowered though.. they are'nt that big of a problem though.. just recently got the gladiator title and the touchers were easy to kite most of the time.. I can see if they used escape- it'd be tough without a snare

Demesis · Jun 05, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Touch rangers are easy to counter. I also were pissed off at them first, but instead of getting mad, I got even and made an anti-touch ritualist. You only need a secondary class of mesmer to do so, and you can easily switch class at Senji's corner.

Firstly, imagined burdeon will slow them down to a crawl. Then you cast conjure phantasm which will drain their Hp. Then you cast the anti-spam spell Diversion. So when they use vampiric bite or whatever, it'll take it another 45 seconds to recharge, which by that time, the degen would have finished them off.

Evilsod · Jun 05, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

I think by far my favourite point in this whole thread was 'Stop Touch skills working if the opponent is moving'. Sure, do that and i wanna know why warriors can hit moving targets too.

As Lyra said, stop Expertise affecting everything, you need to do the same for every primary profession, defeating the entire point of it. Just because a Monks primary only occurs on monk skills doesn't provide a reason why Expertise should be nerfed. Divine Favour, meaning favour from god, the last time i checked a god hardly smiled down upon a monk spamming 'Tainted Flesh' to everything in sight. Mesmers and Rangers are support classes that can use there secondary just aswell as they can a primary in many cases for a reason.
If you think people should only be allowed skills from there class, go play Diablo.

JR · Jun 05, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

To be absolutely blunt; the counter to Touch Rangers is to not suck at this game.

They are a build, like IWAY, which beats bad players very quickly. A good team will have absolutely no problem against them at all. They are a ridiculous gimmick. As someone stated earlier; they weed out the bad teams from RA, much like IWAY weeds out the bad teams from the early rounds of HA.

Seriously, learn to play.