Curse

Richardt · Nov 14, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

That's why I wrote something about Scythe Assassins a few posts above yours. If you dislike Moebius + Blossom, the Assassin will still do a lot more damage then the Dervish ever could with a Scythe + critical strikes.

I've played both, and yes I have used Scythe Sin.

I found Dervish to be much better at dishing out consistant damage.

MegaVolti · Nov 14, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

I've played both, and yes I have used Scythe Sin.

I found Dervish to be much better at dishing out consistant damage.

How can that be?
The Assassin has more critical strikes (which are _awesome_ with a scythe, even in hard mode and after armor), the better IAS and more mana.
It's simple math. The Dervish can never win.
I also play both (Dervish even was my main for a while) and from my experience, the Assassin is seeing bigger yellow numbers more often.

But this isn't all about Assassin vs Dervish. I'm still concerned with the Rangers. They are my second favorite class and I haven't really figured out what to do with them effectivly in hard mode except for BHA.

And what about the Warriors? I don't play them often so I went with knockdown because that's where Warriors do have an advantage (the Insignia).

SS for Necromancers is a fine elite skill and it kills stuff fast. It can even kill stuff faster then any direct damage (like Moebius + Blossom or scythe attacks). I like it a lot, especially since [[Mark of Pain] and [[Barbs] are in the same line.
However, damage isn't that hard to get. BiP on the other hand helps all casters to be more effective, which is imho superior.
And to those claiming "nobody ever should need +7 energy management or he sucks anyway": I'm talking about boosting a team to the maximum performance here. If you know you will get BiP then every party member can plan his build accordingly and intentionally put in highly effective spells with a high energy cost. There is nothing wrong with intentionally spamming good skills when you know you will have nearly unlimited mana.
And 7 players all spamming their best skills is a lot more effective then one guy using [[Arcane Echo] + [[Spiteful Spirit]. On top of that, the [[Blood is Power]-bar has a lot of free slots for further party support - it's not like BiP is the only thing that Necro would do.

Katari · Nov 14, 2008, 06:27 AM // 06:27

It would seem the entire thread has seemed to have forgotten that melee can pack SY! as well.

Basically, save for badly designed "elite" zones in HM, the class of the melee does not matter as long as the team has enough layered support. Stuff like weakness, Ageis, wards, and off-monk party heals go a long way towards making a party sturdy enough that "agro" within an engagement is a non-issue. What this means is, if the melee does not hold all the agro, then they can be a lot more squishy, and still survive. This applies to most, if not all of hardmode, unless a tank/nuke/heal approch is taken. People who play eles with no support, melee with no SY!, or people who still use rebirth, will find such approches filled with misery and failure in most cases. Oh well.

Bobby2 · Nov 14, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

I've played both, and yes I have used Scythe Sin.

I found Dervish to be much better at dishing out consistant damage.

You're talking Lyssa.

Your AotHM argument doesn't stand, since any A/D can pack that as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

Not the best damage dealer-my vote would go for the dervish for reasons I gave above. But by using Death Blossom they can achieve a very nice armor ignoring AoE damage. However, from personnal experiece (in both NM&HM and supported by other sins in my guild) Moebius Strike is difficult to create a DB spam as 90% of the time your enemy is dead by the time you hit Moebius. My guild's chief sin uses Flashing Blades and has frontline for us in a variety of locales and done very well.

Then don't pick the target everyone else is concentrating on, easy as that.

Flashing Blades... okay, there's less stance removal out there then there are ench strips - which is its only argument over CritDef, but seriously, that's pretty fail. No room for blocks on my bar.

Richardt · Nov 14, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You're talking Lyssa.

Your AotHM argument doesn't stand, since any A/D can pack that as well.

No...I'm not talking about a dervish using Lyssa here. What I'm saying is that in my experience in using a Scythe Sin vs. a Dervish (this is in AB) I found I was dealing more CONSISTANT damage with the Dervish with the same elite.

Quote:

Then don't pick the target everyone else is concentrating on, easy as that.

Not when you have a warrior spamming Whirlwind w/ Splinter, a couple dervishes, and an Ele laying down MS and SH. And besides...I did say about 90% of the time-I have on occasion been able to get off that chain, but only enough to get off maybe 1 or 2 DBs.

Quote:

Flashing Blades... okay, there's less stance removal out there then there are ench strips - which is its only argument over CritDef, but seriously, that's pretty fail. No room for blocks on my bar.

Keep in mind that Flashing Blades now does damage back to the dealer-not alot, but when you're in the frontline you get targeted ALOT. And since enemy AI is pretty stupid gets an IAS in HM, it adds up. I'm not saying that it's the best elite choice, but it's one that we found to be very effective.

And MegaVolti-make all the arguments you want for BiP. I still say it's a waste. BR is more than adequent for our needs in HM.

Bobby2 · Nov 14, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

No...I'm not talking about a dervish using Lyssa here. What I'm saying is that in my experience in using a Scythe Sin vs. a Dervish (this is in AB) I found I was dealing more CONSISTANT damage with the Dervish with the same elite.

'Consistent' doesn't imply 'better'.

Numbers vary more with Scythesin, because it crits a lot more often. But hey, crits are good!

Dervs are better than Sins at scything *cough* [wild blow][save yourselves!] *cough*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

Not when you have a warrior spamming Whirlwind w/ Splinter, a couple dervishes, and an Ele laying down MS and SH. And besides...I did say about 90% of the time-I have on occasion been able to get off that chain, but only enough to get off maybe 1 or 2 DBs.

Must be a difference in playstyle then. If I'm not sure I don't get at least 2 Blossoms in, I generally don't bother engaging it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

Keep in mind that Flashing Blades now does damage back to the dealer-not alot, but when you're in the frontline you get targeted ALOT. And since enemy AI is pretty stupid gets an IAS in HM, it adds up. I'm not saying that it's the best elite choice, but it's one that we found to be very effective.

Tank moar. Next thing you know you're going to rep [gladiator's defense].

And no, those 19-ish jots of damage do not qualify as 'adding up'. You could have 3-digit numbers flying through your screen repeatedly.

Tyla · Nov 14, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Dervs are better than Sins at scything *cough* [wild blow][save yourselves!] *cough*

[malicious strike]

Though I would rather have a Dervish. Avatar of Dwayna + FoW = win.

Moloch Vein · Nov 14, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Your thoughts on necromancers aren't very up-to-date.

Dmitri3 · Nov 14, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Your thoughts on necromancers aren't very up-to-date.

Everything in the first post either doesn't make sense or is outdated.

But meh, I won't even go on. Everyone has his/her own idea about "good" and some are struck up on one skill/build as being perfect and would never play anything else.

MegaVolti · Nov 15, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Everything in the first post either doesn't make sense or is outdated.

But meh, I won't even go on. Everyone has his/her own idea about "good" and some are struck up on one skill/build as being perfect and would never play anything else.

Then please give me an update

Point out were I am wrong and give a better use for that class. After all, that's why I made this topic.
But no "hey you suck and you don't know stuff and everything is outdated". Arguments please.

Dmitri3 · Nov 15, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Then please give me an update

Point out were I am wrong and give a better use for that class. After all, that's why I made this topic.
But no "hey you suck and you don't know stuff and everything is outdated". Arguments please.

The problem is that you make it sound like these are the ONLY ways that the professions are any good. The roles you described may be alright if you're set up right but so is any other role the warrior, necro or any prof may chose, considering their build and play-style does make sense.

If I'd have to enumerate all possibilities and then explain them, I'd probably have to write a book about it... So don't get crazy there.

ensoriki · Nov 15, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Sin.....been playing this since factions came out.

Good for nothing but being degenerate now......never thought I would end up thinking like this.
Anyways in pve they're good for DPS and have some alright splash damage with Moebius DB.

MegaVolti · Nov 16, 2008, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

The problem is that you make it sound like these are the ONLY ways that the professions are any good. The roles you described may be alright if you're set up right but so is any other role the warrior, necro or any prof may chose, considering their build and play-style does make sense.

If I'd have to enumerate all possibilities and then explain them, I'd probably have to write a book about it... So don't get crazy there.

Guess I wasn't clear enough on what I had in mind:

Of cause there are lots and lots of really good possibilities to play a character. Each class has tons of different builds which can all be good.

But what I am looking for is the single best role a class can fill. Of cause there are other good possibilities - but which is the best one? What is the single strengh of each class that no other class can do?

For example the the Dervish vs Assassin discussion:
Dervishes are not the best damage dealers with a scythe. So the best role for Dervish can not be scythe damage dealer. So ... what is it?
Necromancers can play minion masters, SS, BiP and so on. Which of these builds is the most useful in HM elite missions that no other class can do? I'd go with BiP+Orders here, Curses Necromancer being a close second.

Desert Rose · Nov 16, 2008, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

I'm still concerned with the Rangers. They are my second favorite class and I haven't really figured out what to do with them effectivly in hard mode except for BHA.

Scythes. If you don't need the shutdown of BHA, just deal insane damage. I also like [[Expert's Dexterity], but i doubt its that effective.

Quote:

And what about the Warriors? I don't play them often so I went with knockdown because that's where Warriors do have an advantage (the Insignia).

Beside of heavy kd with [[Earth Shaker] [[Dragon Slash] offers godly support with [["Save Yourselves!"] while dealing good damage.
And again, scythes (with [[Warrior's Endurance]) for insane damage.

Dmitri3 · Nov 16, 2008, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

But what I am looking for is the single best role a class can fill. Of cause there are other good possibilities - but which is the best one? What is the single strengh of each class that no other class can do?

You're still looking at this wrong then. There is no perfect/best role, it all depends on the area, but even more, it depends on what team setup you have. For example, if you have almost none of physical attackers (or they're all elemental/hole damage), then orders will not provide any advantages to your team. And if your team doesn't have energy problems and you're not gonna encounter any energy denial, then BiP is pretty much wasted.

In other words, if you want to find a "best" role, you gotta look at a team as a whole, then look at the area and mobs you'll be facing... and then of course make sure you're playing with fairly competent players (or make sure heroes can run the builds they are given).

P.S. Yes, sins gain more critical hits with scythe that dervishes... but if you're not running any avatar or other mysticism elites, you can lower mysticism and not lose much. There are plenty of things you can combine with a scythe.

JinkoNeko · Nov 20, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

You're still looking at this wrong then. There is no perfect/best role, it all depends on the area, but even more, it depends on what team setup you have. For example, if you have almost none of physical attackers (or they're all elemental/hole damage), then orders will not provide any advantages to your team. And if your team doesn't have energy problems and you're not gonna encounter any energy denial, then BiP is pretty much wasted.

In other words, if you want to find a "best" role, you gotta look at a team as a whole, then look at the area and mobs you'll be facing... and then of course make sure you're playing with fairly competent players (or make sure heroes can run the builds they are given).

P.S. Yes, sins gain more critical hits with scythe that dervishes... but if you're not running any avatar or other mysticism elites, you can lower mysticism and not lose much. There are plenty of things you can combine with a scythe.

Isn't that how the game seems to be in the first place anyway? The classes and setup of skills as well as versatility of secondary professions seems to have always allowed the player to be able to change up as the situation demands prior to going into an area. Though the primary professions seems to have more of an edge with the runes factor, however depending on the primary attribute of the class another class may also utilize certain aspects of another more efficiently. That seems me anyway what this game is surrounded around, the ability to create and come up with new fun or overpowered combinations and keeps people thinking and creative imo anway. If a specific class's primary attribute which is in a way their forte allows them to greatly excel with skills of another class then so be it. Each class has its versatile abilities that would allow it to assume different roles, even though some classes are more common for the average person to be used in the generic accepted manner. Asking what really each class should be able to do best seems to be a bit out there as even if a warrior is well suited for kd or such, if the enemies have anti-melee or such would hinder it in some areas depending on the situation. Really the purpose of the classes seems to be just what the community is used to or accepts over time, as such with the "assassins seem to have better dps with crit buffs using a scythe than a derv would be able to get" ideal that is out there.

Though on the discussion with the sin vs derv, I'm actually curious about what others thoughts on this are. As lyssa, yes I know it may not be used depending on the situation which would gimp the dmg output otherwise, would be mysticism based and a primary attribute to dervs so they would gain a moderate 40-50 dmg and energy for a considerable time and a sin would not gain that but rather have its inherent crit and buffs to get the higher end scythe dmg. I guess what I'm curious about is would the output in damage for the sin be much greater even so crit scythe wise compared to the derv with lyssa and other similar dmg empowering buffs. (dun shoot me here, just posting my thoughts and curiosity)

sry if thats a bit long

Tyla · Nov 20, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

'Sin vs. Derv? I'll take Assassin. Outside of hex-heavy areas, ofcourse. In those areas, Avatar of Dwayna pretty much clears up a lot of bar space when it comes to hex removal. Heck, if you've seen FoW you will understand me.

Welthas · Nov 20, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bong Bro Zac

warrior-pressure, DW, KD, SY, and can still be used to tank

dervish- most underrated proffession for HM PvE imo... my derv does +200 pbaoe before i even start attacking then im still able to keep up a 33%ias and spam attack skills

assassin- all i find sins good for is perma and DPS which is higher than the other melee proffessions just due to criticals

ranger- imo rangers are the utility proffession that can do it all good but nothin the best. their spirits and interupts are useful and splinter barrage can be a good source of DPS in large mobs.. and im a fan of pets

necromancer- agree with OP... MM in some areas and i love SS

elementalist- nuking of course... snares and wards are ftw also

Mesmer- shutdown and VoR is a great pve skill now... imo necros or eles make better cryers than mesmers

I agree 100%, I mean Dervish's are so underrated about everything. Yet a D/A is a really deadly combo.

ALF71BE · Nov 20, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Warriors - Domage, shutdown.

Dervish - Dommage.

Sin - Dommmage.

Rangers - utility and shutdown.

Mesmers - utility, shutdown and damage.

Rits - support, utility.

Eles - support, utility.

Paras - Imbagons.

Necros - support, utility.

Rhamia Darigaz · Nov 21, 2008, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welthas

I agree 100%, I mean Dervish's are so underrated about everything. Yet a D/A is a really deadly combo.

a/d is even moar deadlier. you see, when you put the professions in alphabetical order they do moar critical domage hits which, much to the charr's disgust, is very large with an scythes.