Curse

Valcion · Jan 24, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

apologizing in advance if this is in the wrong forum, but I couldn't think of any place better to post this in.

I've just been wondering, I kept hearing people in forums/in game talking about how warriors beat out sins in terms of dps, and I was just wondering why/how. I can't say I'm very good at the game, but I assume sin's best dps would probably be come from DB/Moebius spam? What does a warrior have that can beat this?

I'm going to assume lvl12 weapon masteries for the sake of argument.

My first thought would be the dragon slash spamming build (18.5 weapon +34 skill for 52.5dmg). I guess i can see it beating DB/Moebius in the short term, but sins can almost keep up DB/Moebius indefinitely (assuming they don't die, but that goes for everything), wouldn't DB/Moebius win out in the end?

My other answer I've gotten in game was Cleave, which adds +26 dmg to give ~43 dmg (using average axe dmg), which gets some boosts from Strength, but also gets reduced by armor for the 17dmg from the weapon itself, and on top of that is restricted by the 4 adrenaline usage limit. DB on the other hand adds 40 pure damage twice, and adds the average dagger of 12, gives ~52, not to mention the extra splash to other adjacent units, and a low recharge, where as I assume a Cleaver would need a decent sized group and whirling axe to maintain the adrenaline.

For hammer I know you can spike a huge damage with the right skills charged, but I've never played a hammer warrior nor am I familiar with hammers in general to say anything regarding this matter?

Just a question from a guy that has played the game on and off for 2 years, but never bothered to learn the finer details. Feel free to ridicule/help. Thanks in advance.

Taurucis · Jan 24, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Well, there's a lot of different builds to take into effect... there's pressure damage builds for both Warrior and Sin, as well as spike damage builds for both. But in general, I find that Warriors survive longer than Assassins, but Assassins tend to kill faster.

Sawamura · Jan 24, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Yup ..

Sins have the advantage that they attack faster then warriors, add the fast combo's you can make from like DB/Moebius, combined with crit. agility and they shred things apart so friggin fast. However they can't tank for shit unless they get crit. defense or prots from a healer.

Warriors have a higher base dmg but they have more armor. They can kill things fast too, but not as fast as sins.

Basically, if you play intelligent you can do wonderfull things with a sin. But that's not something that everyone can do.

Tip of the day : Don't Lleroooooy like a 10 year old ;-)

RotteN · Jan 24, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

warriors provide more "solid" DPS, since they do not rely on "chains" to spit out large bulks on damage.

Assassins might get more DPS in pure numbers, but that is providing they are simply not hindered in any way. A small annoyance for a warrior (one missed attack) is a bigger issue for the assassin.

warriors = best stable DPS

Crom The Pale · Jan 24, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Sins can deal more instant damage in 5 or 6 seconds than a warrior.

Wars can deal a steady amount of damage over a prolonged period while taking damage from attackers.

Both have certian builds that deal insane DPS but these builds often are not pratical in actual game play.

Sins are meant for hit and run attacks where as a war is meant to walk into the thick of it and pound on a foe until it dies.

FoxBat · Jan 24, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

D-slash is also very vulnerable to disruption, if your slash misses due to blind/block it is painful to get it back up, which is why it is a PvE staple but rarely run in PvP.

Warriors have a bit better utility with better SY coverage and/or KD spam, but moebius wins the dps race. Except for possibly 100 blades in some areas with barbs flying everywhere, I haven't tested that a whole lot.

Winterclaw · Jan 24, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Mobius strike and Deathblossom stop once you kill the target, with DS you can keep it going.

turbo234 · Jan 24, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

warriors provide more "solid" DPS, since they do not rely on "chains" to spit out large bulks on damage.

Assassins might get more DPS in pure numbers, but that is providing they are simply not hindered in any way. A small annoyance for a warrior (one missed attack) is a bigger issue for the assassin.

warriors = best stable DPS

this^
12chars

fenix · Jan 24, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Basically, if a sin gets the combo stopped in ANY WAY, the DPS also stops. Warrior DPS is huge even if it isn't using any skills. Sin DPS is not.

FengShuiDove · Jan 24, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

-Snip-

This is true in some regards, false in others. First:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

warriors provide more "solid" DPS, since they do not rely on "chains" to spit out large bulks on damage.

Yes, the Sin Chain is far more fragile than a Warrior spamming attack skills. However, a decent Moebius build can run [Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike] and start a chain over if Aegis, Guardian, or a stance goes up. It's only 2 attacks that have already recharged since your MS/DB spamming anyway, so it only hinders your speed very slightly. Warriors, on the other hand, if they miss a D-Slash or high-adrenaline skill due to a quick stance, etc., they're low on Adren and have to build again.

In the hands of a good player, either of these will provide incredible DPS with little-to-no downtime. The Sin Chain is much more stoppable than a Warrior spike in most situations, but the MS/DB build is actually very versatile and quick to deal with misses/blocking.

Second:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

Assassins might get more DPS in pure numbers, but that is providing they are simply not hindered in any way. A small annoyance for a warrior (one missed attack) is a bigger issue for the assassin.

This is true, though a proper MS/DB Sin will deal with a miss immediately and have energy to spare. Still, one major "hindrance," to use your term, is the target dying. Sin DPS, though fairly quick to come full force, will have to come to a halt when swapping target as you have to start over the chain. Again, this is not much of an issue as you're like 1.6 seconds away from DB spamming, but a Warrior can swap target with a fully charged D-Slash and immediately hammer the next target.

Third (and finally):

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

warriors = best stable DPS

I would phrase this as "Warriors = Best survivability + DPS." Overall, and this is after having played both classes, I would have to say they're fairly equal. What Warriors lose in overall DPS they gain in mobility and armor, but on the flip side, what Sins lose in those categories, they gain in overall sustained DPS and make up for 90% of the time with [Critical Agility].

A case could be made either way, really. They're both great, in my opinion.

Zinger314 · Jan 24, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Talking in terms of DPS in this game is silly.

kostolomac · Jan 25, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I'd choose warrior because they also bring lots of party support and have more armor.
But a sin is fine too.

Valcion · Jan 25, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. The main issue that got me confused was how I kept hearing Warriors are better than Sins in terms of dps, which made me question why the sin can't just go /W, slap on a shield, and dps away with crit agi using axe/sword since the 12-14 in Strength doesn't really contribute that much damage.

Also, i don't play PvP, so my question is for PvE only.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jan 25, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

sins may have higher potential dps against dummies in isle of the nameless. wars are better at killing when the other team is trying to stop you from killing them. any team that has a chance at beating you will be trying to stop you from killing them, so people run wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valcion

Also, i don't play PvP, so my question is for PvE only.

oh. forget what i just said; since the AI is programmed to bend over in front of you just run a sin and have fun blowing shit up with big armor-ignoring dps.

Balky · Jan 25, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac;

I'd choose warrior because they also bring lots of party support and have more armor.
But a sin is fine too.

A sin can provide party support as well with the right build and assuming we`re talking PVE , with [Critical Agility] at say SS rank 6 [Critical Defense] and Full Nighstalkers Insignias 107 armour while attacking, throw in [Way of Perfection] for a self heal on every crit and you have some effective survivability, unless you get the enchants stripped, which is where the warriors [Defy Pain] and [Endure Pain] have the edge in that aspect

Sins aren`t supposed to stand there and take a pounding while they carve something up like a warrior is though, its a quick hit, carve it up and move on game for them, preferably working on the backline of a mob as opposed to the melee

pingu666 · Jan 25, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

assassins promise

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//gw015.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//gw017.jpg

imo a assassins damage is more front loaded, more complex generaly, while a warriors is more rear loaded (need to build adrenalin) and flexible as your not relient on chains so much, atleast for axe

either played well is very good, assassin is probably worse when played equaly badly

dervs are somewhere inbetween warriors and assassins

pingu666 · Jan 25, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

assassins promise

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//gw015.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//gw017.jpg

imo a assassins damage is more front loaded, more complex generaly, while a warriors is more rear loaded (need to build adrenalin) and flexible as your not relient on chains so much, atleast for axe

either played well is very good, assassin is probably worse when played equaly badly

dervs are somewhere inbetween warriors and assassins, each has its strong and weak points, just play what you enjoy playing, and i like em all

Mr Emu · Jan 25, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

assassins promise

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//gw015.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//gw017.jpg

imo a assassins damage is more front loaded, more complex generaly, while a warriors is more rear loaded (need to build adrenalin) and flexible as your not relient on chains so much, atleast for axe

either played well is very good, assassin is probably worse when played equaly badly

dervs are somewhere inbetween warriors and assassins

1. 46 DPS is not a lot, an MS/DB is better guaranteed
2. Assassins are NOT more complex, the requirement to press skills in a certain order reduces your possibilities, thus your choices, thus the thinking required
3. A well played warrior in PvP (likely in PvE as well) will always do better than an assassin at any skill level, because it is capable of pulling solo maneuvers to against shutdown and more intelligently releasing its damage to get kills (when used intelligently)
4. conversely, a poorly played assassin is more effective than a poorly played war due to point 2

Marverick · Jan 25, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Mobius strike and Deathblossom stop once you kill the target, with DS you can keep it going.

?!?!?

Moebius Strike will recharge Golden Phoenix Strike so just pick another target and start killing again..........

Daenara · Jan 25, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

A sin can provide party support as well with the right build and assuming we`re talking PVE , with [Critical Agility] at say SS rank 6 [Critical Defense] and Full Nighstalkers Insignias 107 armour while attacking, throw in [Way of Perfection] for a self heal on every crit and you have some effective survivability, unless you get the enchants stripped, which is where the warriors [Defy Pain] and [Endure Pain] have the edge in that aspect

Party support are skills like ["Watch Yourself!"] and ["Shields up!"] - skills which have an impact on the party's defense or attack capabilities. Even if an assassin can have high survivability in certain builds/situations, they don't provide anything for the group as a whole. Not that a character built for party support would necessarily produce the highest dps.

Anyway, Warrior > Assassin in terms of "I can train you all day and put out lots of damage".