Curse

high priestess anya · Nov 25, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Funny, because around the same time, the skill of the PvE community started going down. Coincidence?

this is a very fair comment, i too would say i feel the general pve community lacks skill and can only specialise in certain builds whether they are gimmicks or pvx builds but yeah.....valid point
!BAN PVX WIKI FTW! lol joke

Steps_Descending · Nov 25, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

SY teams are 'balanced' in the sense they tend to rely on a mix of mechanics and abilities

But Avaree, that would mean that a tank'n'spank could be a balanced team if the tank had a way to draw aggro (low hp/armor) and if the rest of the team were not pure dmg-dealer. Say a SF or 55 tank, 2 monk (maybe 1), and 4 different Dmg/disrupter(should the aggro break). Or with a resto rit (3rd (back-up) healer) using Splinter on the tank to add some dmg.

Am I correct in that assumption? Or did I miss the whole point.

Katari · Nov 25, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

But Avaree, that would mean that a tank'n'spank could be a balanced team if the tank had a way to draw aggro (low hp/armor) and if the rest of the team were not pure dmg-dealer. Say a SF or 55 tank, 2 monk (maybe 1), and 4 different Dmg/disrupter(should the aggro break). Or with a resto rit (3rd (back-up) healer) using Splinter on the tank to add some dmg.

Am I correct in that assumption? Or did I miss the whole point.

A balanced build, as discussed in this thread, does not depend on dedicated tanks. You will not find balanced builds running SF tanks, nor 55hp/600hp tanks, nor obsidian flesh, etc. Instead they will use "SY!" where they can. Balanced builds that involve non-physical players, and heroes, will generally throw at least a slot or two of party-support utility on each char, such as Aeigs, party heals, wards, weakness, etc.

With all the layered defense, (often from "SY!"/"TINTF" alone) the balanced builds get to care a lot less about agro-management, which lets them move from mob-to-mob at a rapid pace, and should anyone get killed, their death will not signal a massive panic, nor a near or total wipe, rather, mid-combat resurrects allow the party to recover on the fly. Contrast this to a gimmick group loosing a tank with all the deaths, and rebirth sillyness involved with recovering that tank.

ALF71BE · Nov 25, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

lolwut ima go make a new thread about DOA HM non-gimmickway
i garauntee it will be empty up until me and my friends post a completion time in it.
we are gunna start making a non-gimmick build for DOA HM some time soon and the completion time will mean that some of us will be up until early hours hence why we prefer gimmicks as its fast and effective, the people who moan about gimmickways are the people who are incapable of learning "how to destroy" with gimmick builds. those guys just plod along slow as hell, as slow as none gimmick builds hence the hatred towards them.
Hopefully my next thread will shed some light on the quality of guilds such as TAM and SMS.
Go run your curbstomp in DOA HM and im fairly sure you will come back after 10 minutes saying "even the margonites where laughing at us"

There's already a thread, made by TAM.

Btw, learning to "destroy" things (don't know why you use destroy in almost all your posts) pressing 123, is something a braindamaged monkey can learn, albeit with some reward for himself at the end.

-Lotus- · Nov 25, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

I prefer gimmick way...

Profit maximisation is the name of the game. Balanced way died with the release of Factions...

see... that doesn't make any sense. good balanced teams are faster than gimmicks.

I'm not surprised you fail to notice this. if you are someone who like gimmicks, chances are you fail hardcore at the game. people that fail will fail at balanced. gimmicks only require you to do one simple, repetitive task, so even the most brain-dead individuals will be fine.

Lyynyyrd · Nov 25, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I thought that the point of balanced was in running a build that is prepared to take down pretty much anything thrown at it. This means that the guys here can not be taken down by surprise appearances.
Compared to a gimmick where the point is to exploit certain circumstances - but at the same time be completely and utterly easily countered?

Yes, balanced builds can take down pretty much anything thrown at it because balanced groups know what will be thrown at it and prepare for it.

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

Yes, balanced builds can take down pretty much anything thrown at it because balanced groups know what will be thrown at it and prepare for it.

Step 1:
Load up wiki.
Step 2:
Check if hex removal is present in the selected area of choice.
Step 3:
If answer to Step 2 is No - congratulations, your Cryway team is balanced already!

If answer to Step 2 is Yes - add additional hexes. Congratulations, your Cryway team is now balanced!

Yes?

moriz · Nov 25, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

a "balanced" build is one that takes advantage of multiple game mechanic, to have a varied response to threats. because of their varied nature, they are better suited to adapt when something unexpected happens, or if a few member of the party get killed/disconnect/whatever.

a "gimmick" build invariably tries to abuse one or two overpowered mechanics. these kind of builds typically have very poor adaptability, and will fall apart when something goes wrong.

that's about all there is to it.

Rhamia Darigaz · Nov 26, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

This failure of a thread got me to thinking about the pros and cons of gimmicks vs. balanced groups.

Generally with balanced groups, there is room for any profession. If your main is a mesmer you can run something. If your main is a Rit, you can run something. Some professions are a must-have, i.e. monks, but even then you can still run an ether renewal prot/orders ele, hex removal/orders necro, or resto rit to cover some of the monk's duties. Generally, balanced takes a little longer than most gimicks. In some cases, it's not much longer at all, 10-15 minutes. In other cases, depending on the experience of the players in either group, it can take much longer.

Generally with gimmicks, you need to be able to run a select few professions. Ele, necro, monk, mesmer, sin. If your main is a warrior, there's almost no way you will fit into a cry-way group in order to finish DoA and get the statue for your HoM. If you don't have an active guild or friends list, you're really up shit creek. If you can run a cry-way profession, the current meta gimmick, you will be able to join pugs for most any elite area and reap all the rewards, monetary and otherwise, that go along with elite areas.

I have run ursan and cry-way and tank-n-spank (old school) and i have run balanced and in my opinion, I prefer the balanced group that has space for nearly everyone, mainly because I have a lot of characters and it's fun to switch it up every now and then. True, most areas have builds that are more effective for that area and an ele may not be the first choice to take, but we can make it work.

I don't mean this thread to be a "MY WAY IS BETTER THAN YOUR WAY!!!" flame war. i'm actually curious. which do you, individually, prefer? the quick, "get in, get off, get out" method of whatever the current gimmick is? or the more team oriented, "if something goes a little haywire, hopefully we can adapt" method? and why do you prefer that way?

balanced has nothing to do with pve QQers not being able to use their main character in a team build.

qazwersder · Nov 26, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Whats the difference between a gimmick build and a clever build?

I dont understand why playing a so called gimmick build is a bad thing, surely it takes something to develop this build, an understanding of PvE. Playing a gimmick build well requires just as much knowledge as playing a balanced build well.

Was 5 man sorrows furnace a gimmick? Did it maximise the rewards for time spend playing? It wasnt the quickest, but it did require a set team.

People keep comparing a balanced build with a sy para to cryway. Both are exploiting PvE skills, in one case to prevent damage in the other to cause damage. Ok so the sy para only requires one character, the others can be random, cryway requires many mesmers, does this not just show that sy is more overpowered, more exploitive and therefore as the general consensus goes, more gimmicky?

Arkantos · Nov 26, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Here is the biggest difference between a balanced team with SY and cryway: Remove SY from the balanced team and you can still win, remove CoP from the cryway team and you're dead.

The same applies to every gimmick build. Remove the key skill and you're dead. There is no single skill that makes a balanced build win. You can remove SY. You can remove WoH. You can remove whatever. You can still win.

qazwersder · Nov 26, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

i'll give you that

Steps_Descending · Nov 26, 2008, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Even if I seem to love tank in that post, it's not that I love them, just that this particular part of GW system is messing me up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

A balanced build, as discussed in this thread, does not depend on dedicated tanks. You will not find balanced builds running SF tanks, nor 55hp/600hp tanks, nor obsidian flesh, etc. Instead they will use SY!; where they can. Balanced builds that involve non-physical players, and heroes, will generally throw at least a slot or two of party-support utility on each char, such as Aeigs, party heals, wards, weakness, etc.

With all the layered defense, (often from SY! TINTF alone) the balanced builds get to care a lot less about agro-management, which lets them move from mob-to-mob at a rapid pace, and should anyone get killed, their death will not signal a massive panic, nor a near or total wipe, rather, mid-combat resurrects allow the party to recover on the fly. Contrast this to a gimmick group loosing a tank with all the deaths, and rebirth sillyness involved with recovering that tank.

That question might also apply to Arkantos 2 posts above this one :

From what you say, a balanced team treats any party member the same way. But isn't an imbagon basically an indirect tank? He is the one sparing dmg to everyone, either through SY or simply takking the blows; If he dies the whoel team will probably soon follow. Accept contrary to a tank he can be rezzed and MAY be able to continue his job (thank to GW'S "wonderful" aggro system, understand this as you wish), but if the rest of a tank'n'spank team also has utility it would make it a balanced one. Correct? Which would make SY a slightly more subtle tank system.

To Arkantos, can a team in an elite area survive a medium to heavy fight without it's SY/TNtF spammer? Compared to the same team with all dmg dealers as CoP nukers? Or are you saying that a Gimmick is simply a team where every player has a build focussed on doing 1 thing and only ONE?

(Does those questions matter for someone else than me? probably not. I know that, just need them answered anyway.

Simath · Nov 26, 2008, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

can a team in an elite area survive a medium to heavy fight without it's SY/TNtF spammer? .

I would hope so. If they can't perhaps they should find another game to play seeing as GW's is too hard for them.

Arkantos · Nov 26, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

To Arkantos, can a team in an elite area survive a medium to heavy fight without it's SY/TNtF spammer?

Yes. Teams were able to survive medium/heavy fights before PvE skills were introduced, so teams can survive if their paragon dies. It depends on the skill of the team.

Lyynyyrd · Nov 26, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Step 1:
Load up wiki.
Step 2:
Check if hex removal is present in the selected area of choice.
Step 3:
If answer to Step 2 is No - congratulations, your Cryway team is balanced already!

If answer to Step 2 is Yes - add additional hexes. Congratulations, your Cryway team is now balanced!

Yes?

Cryway is a gimmick, gimmick != balanced.

snaek · Nov 26, 2008, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

a "balanced" build is one that takes advantage of multiple game mechanic, to have a varied response to threats. because of their varied nature, they are better suited to adapt when something unexpected happens, or if a few member of the party get killed/disconnect/whatever.

a "gimmick" build invariably tries to abuse one or two overpowered mechanics. these kind of builds typically have very poor adaptability, and will fall apart when something goes wrong.

that's about all there is to it.

this is pretty much it

but the thing is
we're talkin bout pve here
if ur pro at it, the unexpected should and will -not- happen
(unless ur playin casually)

i can understand in pvp
where u need to be prepared for anything
but in pve, u kno exactly wut to expect and when to expect it

lets say 2 teams r tryin to go for record time...

a balanced build has a "perfect" run, where everything goes exactly to plan
and a gimmick build has a "perfect" run, where everything goes exactly to plan

which will have the faster time?

joshuarodger · Nov 26, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

lolwut ima go make a new thread about DOA HM non-gimmickway
i garauntee it will be empty up until me and my friends post a completion time in it.
we are gunna start making a non-gimmick build for DOA HM some time soon and the completion time will mean that some of us will be up until early hours hence why we prefer gimmicks as its fast and effective, the people who moan about gimmickways are the people who are incapable of learning "how to destroy" with gimmick builds. those guys just plod along slow as hell, as slow as none gimmick builds hence the hatred towards them.
Hopefully my next thread will shed some light on the quality of guilds such as TAM and SMS.
Go run your curbstomp in DOA HM and im fairly sure you will come back after 10 minutes saying "even the margonites where laughing at us"

please don't. there's absolutely no reason to come in this thread and start throwing insults around at specific guilds or posters. this is how that other thread was ruined, and i genuinely want to know how others feel. it was a pretty good discussion until this post.

TAM and SMS can run any gimmick as effectively as anyone else if we choose to do it that way and know what to expect, and, in fact, most of us have run every gimmick in the game at some point or another. as with any team build it does take some amount of coordination and you have to not be an idiot to run cry-way. in my opinion, the only prerequisite that one must know and adhere to for a cryway team is "if you aren't the tank, don't aggro." cryway can be fun, especially the first few times you run it but it's very repetitive and became very stale for me. if you know the layout and trouble spots of the map, any perma SF can tank the mob and 7 other people can wait til they're balled up and cast their skills. the same theory applies to balanced groups also. if a balanced group knows the trouble spots and layout of the map they can deal with it.

you really have no idea how TAM and SMS run their teams unless you were in one of our guilds or did a run with us, so please don't come and start foaming at the mouth and throwing insults around if you don't know us. can cry-way beat our times in FoW or DoA? sure. but we have fun doing a 45-50 minute FoW run with different professions. we can also get through DoA in respectable time. can we do it in an hour and a half? usually no. i do know that SMS did it about that quickly a few times but i wasn't there for that, so it's second-hand info.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

balanced has nothing to do with pve QQers not being able to use their main character in a team build.

i'm sorry but i don't know what you mean by this. are you saying that certain professions can't join a balanced team?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

can a team in an elite area survive a medium to heavy fight without it's SY/TNtF spammer

no. that is the main line of defense. just like anywhere else, if your prot monk dies and nobody gets him up there will be a wipe. if there is no SY/TNtF spammer, there will be a wipe. now if the SY gets killed and everyone is doing their job, he will be rezzed. can the team survive 5-7 seconds without SY/TNtF spam? yes.

the savage nornbear · Nov 26, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Gimmick, no doubt. But a balanced team can come back after mistakes, a gimmick team often cannot.

^at snaek

Trub · Nov 26, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

What someone already noticed, balanced teams in case of OMGWEAREGETTINGPWND CAN recover. Either with a concentration of SY+Aegis+TNTF and RUN AWAY WHILE MELEES AGGRO FOES or just one person with a hard rez like FoMF running away and rezzing the team.

Gimmicks die when their tank dies.

Highlighted part is my job...

HM Bogrots...ahhhh, the back aggro........(I can't help myself, I have to keep my team on their toes, so...a little extra enemy involvement from the back nevah hurts.)