Curse

TheOrangeFalcon · Nov 26, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

I prefer a balanced play-style.

I've run gimmicks in PvE/P before such as: Ursan, Cry, IWAY, Zerg, Heroway, Escape Scythes, etc. And honestly they bore me. The ONLY reason someone should run anything at all is if it is fun to them. If you enjoy a gimmick, right on. If you prefer balanced, go for it. Anyone who calls someone else a noob, scrub, failure etc., for what the like to run is fcukin retarded. What, is it bad to enjoy to play the game or something? Must everyone conform?

Now I still run gimmicks every once in a while for various reasons:
1. PUGs: Gimmicks are just way safer.
2. Friends might be doing it. If I go do something with friends, it will probably be fun regardless of what we're running.
3. Time: More in the way of a PvP/PUG thing; I might not have time to look for a full balanced group. This is mostly for HA, where all anyone there wants is generally a gimmick. Kinda hard to find a PD mes when there's only R/Ws and N/Rts running around huh.

Probably the only gimmick I've never ran, and never will is the UWSC. In my opinion it totally defeats the purpose of the area. "Yay I cleared Vale, now I can go get my chest drops!" No it just doesn't work for me. "Sweet we beat Vale and Wastes and Mountains and etc. Now we get our chest drops!" Ya that works for me =p

Now about the WAY thing. As you can probably tell above, I leave that off. Go me. Simply because I've questioned why it is attached to everything since whenever the second WAY was(Zerg?). It is just a part of GW now, so usually I'll add it on, but I like leaving them out when I can. Really couldn't think of another name for heroway though. And ya, Escape Scythes sound almost as stupid as calling it SWAY, but hey, whatever.

Also, I'm kinda sick of everyone bashing PvXwiki. Sure they aren't the best builds around, but it works for newer players, or people who just like chillin in nm or something. It's also pretty good about getting the meta builds up there, which can be nice to read about, and say counter if its a pvp meta.

Avarre · Nov 26, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerg-nad

First, I find it amusing to say builds are gimmicks as every build better be synergistic in some fashion or you will be unsuccessful. Is there a difference between a Hoj-Poj group of folks and a team, I say there is. When you play football is everyone the running back or the center? No you have roles and responsibilities.

Synergy is not a relevant point. Several known gimmicks rely on abusing the synergy of skills/mechanics (N/Rt for example), and balanced builds all have a high degree of synergy. The difference is the way in which the builds synergize, and the number of such synergies the build relies on.

Gimmicks are typically defined as relying on a single skill or mechanic and min-maxing the build to abuse it.

Quote:

Second, I, like many others simply want to play the game not stand around for an hour balancing skills before even starting. Because of this I am a proponent of team builds, not individual builds (unless they are designed for soloing).

A balanced build means that each character plays a role in the team, with varied setups. A gimmick usually involves 4+ characters playing the same role and doing the same thing with almost the same bar. Which is more about team builds?

I'm not even going to touch the 'hour balancing skills' comment.

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I take solace in the fact that most of the folks who continue with the attitude of I am better than you and you are a "noob" mentality, do not have their drivers license and cannot vote.

I can't 'vote', because I'm in the army of a country you've probably never heard of. Good job being parochial, sir! Not that I'm upset, because since we've obviously concluded game opinion = real opinion, I shudder to imagine what you vote for.

upier · Nov 26, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

Cryway is a gimmick, gimmick != balanced.

So this definition:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

Balanced builds involve balancing your party/skills to suit the environment. They are the best build for any given zone.

would be wrong then. Because, like I said, one can balance the skills in Cryway for the environment. It can also be the best build for certain zones.

Elentari · Nov 26, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by qazwersder

I dont understand why playing a so called gimmick build is a bad thing, surely it takes something to develop this build, an understanding of PvE. Playing a gimmick build well requires just as much knowledge as playing a balanced build well.

People keep comparing a balanced build with a sy para to cryway. Both are exploiting PvE skills, in one case to prevent damage in the other to cause damage. Ok so the sy para only requires one character, the others can be random, cryway requires many mesmers, does this not just show that sy is more overpowered, more exploitive and therefore as the general consensus goes, more gimmicky?

There is some sense to this. Sure you can define a build as a gimmick just by looking at the skills on the bars, basically here we're getting at ultimate gimmick = cryway because it's a powerful caster spike. But the point here is that there are 2 sides to everything: you can have a mindless "balanced" exploiting a bunch of pve skills that just c spaces through everything, or you can have a group of players who know what they're doing and put in the effort to play their bars efficiently. Just as well as you can have a cryway that dumps their damage more or less randomly, or then again if it's a decent group they'll actually ball foes well and have a clean spike. Sure, 3-2-1 with an armor-ignoring spike isn't the highest form of teamplay coordination, but neither is tab target bashing with every party buff in the game.

But really, neither build necessarily requires more skill, it's just that the e-honor element to balanced seems to give the right to dismiss other builds as overpowered and brainless to run when in truth the state of pve nowadays doesn't allow for much display of "skill". But hey, shitters calling others shitters is pretty entertaining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

u mad?

Cyber me Avarre <3

Avarre · Nov 26, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So this definition:

would be wrong then. Because, like I said, one can balance the skills in Cryway for the environment. It can also be the best build for certain zones.

Which is why the definition 'relies on a single mechanic or skill to perform' is better. Essentially, any build that completely falls apart if any one thing is removed from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari

But really, neither build necessarily requires more skill, it's just that the e-honor element to balanced seems to give the right to dismiss other builds as overpowered and brainless to run when in truth the state of pve nowadays doesn't allow for much display of "skill". But hey, shitters calling others shitters is pretty entertaining.

I'd still say that the balanced build, at least, has a greater deal of complexity because it doesn't rely on one skill to win the game, and even without PvE skills it is still highly effective.

Part of the 'ehonor' comes from the fact that if you changed PvE a bit - say, made the mobs have just enough health to not go down to cry spikes, or made them not balTl for a tank, or gave every creature in the game signet of disenchantment, the balanced team would still win. If you nerfed half the skills in the build, it would still work. You can't say that for the gimmick team. The counterargument is that the gimmick team would just run something else entirely, but as certain guilds have shown us in the past (hi DVDF), that transition doesn't always happen cleanly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari

Cyber me Avarre <3

Get me r12?

Elentari · Nov 26, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Yes, the diversity and versatility that balanced offers makes it more adaptive, and more resistant to big changes, be it in the skills themselves or mobs AI. But balanced is a loosely defined term here, basically the general team build template that can handle pretty much anything it's up against in every aspect of pve, allowing a broad range of professions.

If you took away SY, balanced would work just as well, maybe you have to give up some offense to make up for the lack of a partywide take-no-damage prot, but indeed the build wouldn't fall apart.

If you took away cry, the cryspike indeed falls apart, but then you could still accomplish a caster spike involving mesmers, or just casters in general, and the tank'n'spank tactic would still work. Of course it wouldn't be called cryspike anymore, but would it be just as gimmicky if the midline bars became more complex? For example, is the pre-eotn doa build a gimmick (OF tank, SF eles, SS nec, SB prot, HB healer, bonder, BiP)?

When judging builds like cryway, I think it's important to keep in mind that it is not designed for general pve purposes, but to efficiently complete the specific areas it's intended for. For most of pve, anyone can see that balanced is more fit, it's great to be able to take any character one feels like taking and being able to play with anyone regardless of what character they're on. But when it comes to elite areas like DoA (yeah yeah same for fow uw deep urgoz etc) I like the speed that cryway achieves. Sure it gets boring after a while due to its repetitive nature, but so does quarterknocking margonites for 2 hours tbh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Get me r12?

Get Eye of the North and don't leave in 2 weeks? ;[

kostolomac · Nov 26, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Can someone give me an example of a balanced team build or are we presuming it's the physical-heavy team.
Because if it's the second one , it's only better than GimmickWay (Cryway) because it takes more ability to play. It abuses more things in PvE than Cryway and has a party wide godmode , where Cryway only has a single target godmode. In the end Balanced is better because if something doesn't go according to plan you have a higher chance of fixing that mistake.
This is only if balanced=physical-heavy. I'm waiting for another example of a balanced team.

Avarre · Nov 26, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari

? For example, is the pre-eotn doa build a gimmick (OF tank, SF eles, SS nec, SB prot, HB healer, bonder, BiP)?

I'd say so, simply because it relies on the mechanic of tanking (AI abuse) to be successful. Perhaps less gimmicky, but still the entire build focuses on holding aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari

But when it comes to elite areas like DoA (yeah yeah same for fow uw deep urgoz etc) I like the speed that cryway achieves.

And I liked the speed of rolling people that FC Air brought in Prophecies, but it didn't mean I was allowed to pretend I was a good player when I was in PuP. Gimmicks, by nature, are focused builds to get the maximum effect: the strong ones are going to beat out balanced builds in terms of raw effectiveness.

Guild Wars rewarding that kind of play has always been questionable. Ideally there wouldn't be any gimmicks, and in the meantime I can grumble about ANet introducing such stupid crap. I can't blame people for running it, though, since it works - unless, of course, they start thinking it makes them good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

This is only if balanced=physical-heavy. I'm waiting for another example of a balanced team.

Physical damage has always been the best source of solid DPS. In the context of Guild Wars, that's what makes a solid team - in the same way you could call them 'monk heavy' when discussing the backline. It's what works.

I wouldn't say the build 'abuses' pve skills either, rather that it uses them. You could remove them from the build, it doesn't break anything. Those skills just make the build stronger. The same can't be said for most PvE gimmicks.

-Lotus- · Nov 26, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Can someone give me an example of a balanced team build

no such thing. any set build is a gimmick. balanced teams are flexable with their team members.

A basic template for a balanced team could be:
2-3 backline
2-4 midline
2-4 frontline

but that could get mixxed up to. you could use a smaller backline is you have an imbagon, or a smaller midline for more physicals. the entire concept is just using builds that work well combined with a fluid strategy. Unlike gimmicks, balanced players need to adapt.

upier · Nov 26, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Which is why the definition 'relies on a single mechanic or skill to perform' is better. Essentially, any build that completely falls apart if any one thing is removed from it.

Absolutely.
I was just in a bitching mood so I pointed it out.

Rhamia Darigaz · Nov 26, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

i'm sorry but i don't know what you mean by this. are you saying that certain professions can't join a balanced team?

i meant exactly what i said.
in the OP you are presenting the idea that the difference between a balanced build and a gimmick build is that, while gimmicks tend to use many of the same profession, balanced builds can make room for anyone.
when i said that balanced has nothing to do with pve QQers being able to use their main character, i meant that your idea is wrong. a necro might have no place in a certain build, but that doesn't make it a gimmick. a group of people might decide to modify their build if one of its members wants to run a certain primary profession, but that doesn't make it balanced.

you seem to be thinking like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

any set build is a gimmick. balanced teams are flexable with their team members.

what i'm saying is that's wrong.
balanced does not mean willing to compromise a build to suit the desires of the team members. that's just choosing builds flexibly.
the difference between balanced and gimmicks is that gimmicks rely heavily on one mechanic or strategy while balanced builds are designed to handle a variety of situations. people do this in pvp because they don't know what the other team will be running or what tactics they might employ. it's not really necessary to run a balanced build in pve because there's no need to adapt to the predictable AI.

you might be confusing the terms "cookie-cutter" and "gimmick". they don't mean the same thing.

-Lotus- · Nov 26, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

when you play balanced you learn game mechanics and strategy. why you play gimmicks you play the same areas repeatedly, do the same things, and press the same buttons. no one really knows what they are doing.

balanced players understand what their skills do any play the same general stlye and build through all areas, adapting a few skills and tactics depending on what they encounter. balanced does not require you to study every monster, skill and area in the game in order to exploit it. you can do any areas you want quickly, without a ton of work.

better

Koning · Nov 27, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

when you play balanced you learn game mechanics and strategy. why you play gimmicks you play the same areas repeatedly, do the same things, and press the same buttons. no one really knows what they are doing.

balanced players understand what their skills do any play the same general stlye and build through all areas, adapting a few skills and tactics depending on what they encounter. gimmick does not require you to study every monster, skill and area in the game in order to exploit it. you can do any areas you want quickly, without a ton of work.

better

Also, the fact that gimmick things like cry-way is popular amongst PuGs once again shows that you don't need to be experienced to play gimmicks like cry-way.

upier · Nov 27, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

snip

Actually what Loti said makes more sense given the fact that the point of the balanced build is that it can take up pretty much everything one throws at it.
Which is also the reason why so little people bother with it in PvE.
It's surprising to find a surprise in PvE. Even more then the surprise itself.

Koning · Nov 27, 2008, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Actually what Loti said makes more sense given the fact that the point of the balanced build is that it can take up pretty much everything one throws at it.
Which is also the reason why so little people bother with it in PvE.
It's surprising to find a surprise in PvE. Even more then the surprise itself.

I have to disagree there. A gimmick like ursan or cry-way doesn't require you to study what you're going to face in an area. Shadowform always works, and the cry of pain bars are always the same bars. Balanced on the other hand can perform better if you change certain things, example DoA where you need more hex removal than other parts of the game.

upier · Nov 27, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

I have to disagree there. A gimmick like ursan or cry-way doesn't require you to study what you're going to face in an area. Shadowform always works, and the cry of pain bars are always the same bars. Balanced on the other hand can perform better if you change certain things, example DoA where you need more hex removal than other parts of the game.

Balanced will preform better if you optimize it for the selected area. If you don't optimize it - it will still work, just not as good.
Run into a SoD guy and Shadowform is no more. It doesn't work worse - it actually doesn't work at all. And because of that - you seriously need to know who you are going to run into.

-Lotus- · Nov 27, 2008, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

I have to disagree there. A gimmick like ursan or cry-way doesn't require you to study what you're going to face in an area.

maybe you specifically didn't study it, but someone did because these gimmick builds will not work in every area. people go through areas, decide how best to exploit them and then create gimmick builds.

zelgadissan · Dec 02, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

which do you, individually, prefer? the quick, "get in, get off, get out" method of whatever the current gimmick is? or the more team oriented, "if something goes a little haywire, hopefully we can adapt" method? and why do you prefer that way?

When I'm by myself I try to be very efficient to account for compy AI so I either run balanced teams (Dunky, Olias, Jin/Gwen) or a Discord team. When going with the guildies of mine who actually still get on, we're almost always on our mains which are all different professions (Me,N,Rt,D,R). I'll almost always run a subpar build because it's just more fun that way, and when I play with other people (in PvE) it's all about having fun. Of course, PvP is a different story.

Here's a build I'm currently loving for when running with guildies (occasionally with SoI which is gimmicky in itself):
[build name="awesomesauce" prof=Me/R dom=10+1+1 insp=11+1 fast=7+1 beast=7][Lyssa's Aura][Cry of Frustration][Smooth Criminal][Arcane Thievery][Arcane Larceny][Ether Lord][Comfort Animal][Charm Animal][/build]

Edit: had to delete my opening to the post as there were a bunch of deleted posts QQ

Celebrian · Dec 02, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Ok, first off theres already been enough flaming over this anya so bringing it up again isnt helping anyone.

To say that balanced is going to be better and faster than any gimmick in a given situation is completely untrue. I'm going to focus on cry-way here, any half decent guild will know to run the same cryway build in different elite areas is just dumb, its modified and specified for the elite area just like any balanced build. This ultimatley creates a specified team build which has utilities that help prevent mistakes etc in elite areas. A basic exmaple of this is how we use frigid armor in the second room of foundry so that the eles take next to no damage. Yes balanced will be able to have more utilities than a tank and spank noobway gimmick or whatever you lot decide to call it, but it in no way means that it takes more skill to play.

There are 2 sides to this, obviously the god mode perma sin that can tank pretty much everything, for cryway. And then theres the imbagon which lets face it, does turn your party into god mode. The imbagon gives you the ability to face almost any foe and not have to think too much about the consequences. The perma sin allows for perfect balling of mobs and essentialy god mode (except in certain areas) for that character. Then theres the completely imbalanced CoP for QQway and the many overpowered PvE skills that come with balanced builds. Personally i think GW was a better game without them, or maybe if the PvE skills were balanced it would be ok. But we have them to our disposal so why not use them. Both builds (cryway and physicalway) are heavily dependant on PvE skills and so to say that if CoP was nerfed cryway would be destroyed you do realise if SY+TNFT was nerfed the balanced you know now as physicalway would also be destroyed or at the very least severely crippled. To add to this some people seem to think that running balanced in PvE makes them better players, sorry but maybe in PvP but PvE is a complete joke since eotn was released. In PvE you know what your going to face and so with a bit of research you can take counter measures to ensure you dont fail at certain "harder" points. This applies for both builds and the only difference is that balanced has more room for error and more room for additional utilities that might save the day. This brings me to a personal conclusion that both builds are really as overpowered as eachother.

Personally, i like to run speed builds like cryway in elite areas as GW can get incredibly boring after spending 1-2hours+ in an elite area that can take you under an hour with a gimmick build. However, that doesnt mean i cant and dont run balanced. Newsflash! my main character is my warrior! who would have thought?! its not a mes/ele/sin/monk!

If your still insistant that cryway is a fail build for noobs i beg you to go do a pug in doa and finish it without wanting to tear someones head off. I even guested for a very well known PvE guild to help them on their doa run as a tank. You all know this guild well but im not going to name it, but i will tell you they failed hard.

Charlotte the Harlot · Dec 03, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Where is this idea that you have to be good to do well with a balanced team coming from? Essentially knowing where pop ups spawn and not over aggroing is all you have to know to do well with it. Unless your a monk (or alternative healer) in a very tight situation it takes just as little skill as cry way or any other gimmick. I prefer balanced which is essentially a gimmick in itself, load up with physicals and things to support their damage a paragon that makes you near invincible and 1-2 monks and go. The only reason I prefer it is I can just rush in most of the time with out having to concentrate or wait for a tank.