Curse

Moloch Vein · Sep 22, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

^ You have been doing PUGs and AB?

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

yes, but that's hardly the point.

and why are you playing a MM in AB? they are about as useful as a mending wammo. middling damage, no shutdown/utility, and pops like a zit every time they get attacked (in the case of n/mo), or when their pathetic 2 sec cast enchantments get interrupted/stripped (in the case n/d). they contribute nothing but shock value to a team when they are alive (OMG 342938 people coming at us! wait, they're minions), and causes a team to blow up when they get popped (OMG minions turning on us!!).

actually i take that back. they are worse than a mending wammo. at least you can count on the wammo to stay alive for a while and be your meatshield.

Moloch Vein · Sep 22, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Do you have any idea whatsoever how much damage a minion army powered by OoU can do?

Also, about those "pathetic 2 sec cast enchantments"... let's see. Dark Bond, 2, yes. Infuse Condition, 1. Masochism, 1. Mystic Regeneration, 1/4. Sorry, that's wrong.

Many builds are susceptible to enchantment hate. That doesn't make them useless. Every build has a counter. As long as not enough people invest in the counter for one reason or another the build works.

Also you don't seem to understand the basic mechanics of Alliance Battles or any low-level PvP. Bring 10 minions, chances are some dumb bastard gets stuck attacking one of them. At the very least, they'll have to tab through hordes of insignificant targets to find their opponent.

Oh, and I kinda thought that sentiment pretty funny. The minions contribute nothing but shock value when the MM is alive, but if he dies they cause the team to blow up?

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Do you have any idea whatsoever how much damage a minion army powered by OoU can do?

so you suggest they bring a skill that buffs up their middling, unfocused damage and slowly kills themselves at the same time? ok.

Quote:

Also, about those "pathetic 2 sec cast enchantments"... let's see. Dark Bond, 2, yes. Infuse Condition, 1. Masochism, 1. Mystic Regeneration, 1/4. Sorry, that's wrong.

the only N/D that are of any danger are the ones that use dark bond and aura of the leech. either way, interrupting dark bond and they'll pop. those without aura of the leech cannot tank nearly as effectively and can be killed easily.

Quote:

Also you don't seem to understand the basic mechanics of Alliance Battles or any low-level PvP. Bring 10 minions, chances are some dumb bastard gets stuck attacking one of them. At the very least, they'll have to tab through hordes of insignificant targets to find their opponent.

congrats, you've succeeded on exploiting the mentally weak.

Quote:

Oh, and I kinda thought that sentiment pretty funny. The minions contribute nothing but shock value when the MM is alive, but if he dies they cause the team to blow up?

if the MM dies, the minions will attack anyone who's closest, which oftentimes means the MM's own teammates.

Moloch Vein · Sep 22, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Like I said... the minions are absolutely harmless while they are under control of a person boosting their damage and durability, but when that person dies, they suddenly become very dangerous?

Regarding Order of Undeath, you do know about methods of countering health sacrifice?

In about 100 AB matches I think I get Infuse or Dark Bond interrupted about 2 times. Those enchants are cast before the battle and have enough duration not to run out inconveniently.

Any PvP game is about exploiting the mentally weak, or at the very least, those weaker than yourself. If you fail to do so, you're the sucker.

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

and a MM can only exploit the weakest, and are usually played by those who are mentally weak to begin with. anyone else with more brains will play something that can exploit those who are smarter than the mentally weakest.

anyways, this is a pve discussion. in pve, MM can be played effectively by a bot. there's really no need to "practice" being a MM.

Moloch Vein · Sep 22, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Oh, so now we get to the heart of the discussion. You feel your AB build is more l33t than an MM, so you choose this opportune moment to degrade those playing this other build.

Alright, so let me get to the heart of the reply. People playing MMs in AB do so because they have noticed that their damage output and battlefield utility outperforms most of the stuff any other build can manage. They play them because they are, for this reason, wanted in teams. They play them because they can mow down you people playing your l33t builds unless you play to specifically counter them. And they play them because they know that when you do AB it's not about countering the upper 10% of the clientele; it's about effectively fighting the majority of it.

I think that's all.

Carinae · Sep 22, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Given that you are maintaining these enchantments, can anyone show me a spell that beats +9 HP regeneration for 20 seconds, at a cost of 10e, for an investment of 8 Earth Prayers? Exactly what spell in the Healing Prayers line even comes close?

9 pips for 20s = 180 health (over 20 seconds) vs 120 health instantly for you and the minions.

N/D is definately attractive in AB, no question.

For general PvE action, I find N/Mo superior. The ability to burst heal your minions is quite helpful when you are dragging them around the map. BotM->BotM->HA = ~360 health for you minions in under 5s and the MM breaks even healthwise. It also works as a secondary heal spell should BotM become disabled...something that does happen, unfortunately.

And this is what I mean about the MM self heal, there are many options, and the best choice depends on the player, play-style and the particular opponents being faced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

in pve, MM can be played effectively by a bot. there's really no need to "practice" being a MM.

When I play dual MMs with Olias, I beat him (and opposing MMs) to the corpse 95% of the time, maintain more minions than he does and also deal far, far more damage than he does. I actually have to manage his corpses to make sure he can estabish an army. Hero MMs might be sufficient for most people, but they are by no means as good as it gets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

The use of [skill]consume corpse[/skill] shouldn't be in contention with [skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill], but should be considered a viable alternative. In a corpse heavy area, you will never use all the corpses, so CC works great. In places where corpses are to a lesser degree of abundance, SoLS would certainly be prefered.

If you are specced 16 DM and 16 SR then SolS and CC return the same amounts of hp and energy. But while MM's always run 16 DM how often do they run 16 SR as well. 99% of the time CC returns more to the MM than SolS. As well as having no recharge time, whereas SolS has an 8s recharge.

CC also doesnt require targeting OR a specific condition on said target. Hunting targets with SolS is distracting and often frustrating, because targets under 50% don't last long.

Now with CC.... it's not a question of corpse availability. Really. It purely a question of energy. If you don't have enough energy to animate that corpse RIGHT NOW, then that corpse is a detriment to your team. It can be exploited by the other side in a variety of ways, and even if it isn't, it's not doing you any good. Better to burn it for energy, thereby denying it to the other side, and also enabling yourself to animate the NEXT corpse.

In addition, it's often not needed in areas where there are few corpses, because, well..you aren't animating that often, therefore are spending less energy overall. But in areas, with lots of corpses, SR will overflow and stop working. That's a very bad situation...lots of corpses and no energy. In that case, CC is like a 'manual SR' you can trigger it whenever you need, on demand.

The solution to the teleport is: Use your head...be aware of the locations of battlefield corpses. I have NEVER, EVER died because of the CC teleport, ever. Your options in the event of a bad teleport are:

1) Run Away
2) Use CC again

CC >>>> SolS almost always.

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Oh, so now we get to the heart of the discussion. You feel you're a better player than someone who plays MM, so you choose this opportune moment to degrade those playing this other build because they are retards.

Alright, so let me get to the heart of the reply. People playing MMs in AB do so because they have noticed that their mental capacity and battlefield awareness are too low to play most of the other more effective builds. They play them because they are, for this reason, wanted in teams composed of other retards. They play them because they can't mow down you people playing your l33t builds unless you play poorly. And they play them because they know that they cannot compete with the upper 10% of the clientele; it's about effectively fighting the bottom 20% who are just as stupid.

I think that's all.

fixed your post.

i think what's been said is enough. mods please close before i have to argue with these retards again.

Carinae · Sep 22, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Whoops. Math error. 9 pips for 20s = 360hp.

My argument still stands.

Horseman Of War · Sep 22, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I used to argue a lot about the perfect mm in threads like this. Basically, you find a style you are comfortable with and roll with it. There is no bad MM except the one without minions. Just remember, you can direct your minions if you hold shift just outside aggro range- they will run in and attack and draw aggro.

My MM uses byzzr and khonru greens from factions, which are both +15/-1 and the focus also gives +1 death magic. I dont remember my exact armor and rune configuration, but I know I have 77 energy. I go with N/E, concentrating on Animate Bone Fiend, with glyph of lesser energy, putrid explosion, and taste of death for a quick heal.

Animate Flesh Golem, imo, is best used on a ritualist explosive spawning mm, with the double bone minions, then you buff the golem with a weapon spell.

Jagged Bones is too much micro management and not enough fun for me, but my heros are good with it.

There's my 2 cents, exchange rate may vary.

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

one thing to keep in mind is that mystic regen becomes substantially better the more enchantments you stack on yourself.

given the standard N/D MM, there are 4 enchants: mystic regen, aura of the lich, infuse condition, dark bond. together, that gives +12 regen. since the game caps it at +10, it's +10 with +2 held in reserve. assuming there are no degen being applied to you, it gives a pretty impressive 400hp over 20 seconds. given the health loss+damage reduction from aura of the lich, this just becomes extremely powerful.

another reason why N/D is the better choice (although running a MM there in the first place is a bad idea) in AB is the neverending supply of corpses. in such an environment, the ability to sustain your minions is not very important, since you can keep making new ones. staying alive on the otherhand is more important, since it keeps your minions from going berserk on your own teammates.

the achilles heel of this build is that once you lose one or more of your enchantments, the healing from mystic regen goes with them. having aura of the lich and dark bond interrupted/removed will not only cause you to lose your passive damage reduction, but also cause the health regen to bottom out at the same time. the result can often be absolutely hilarious: one moment the N/D MM is imperious to damage, the next moment they pop like an ugly zit because they only have ~450hp and only trivial health regen.

Chthon · Sep 22, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

9 pips for 20s = 180 health (over 20 seconds) vs 120 health instantly for you and the minions.

N/D is definately attractive in AB, no question.

For general PvE action, I find N/Mo superior. The ability to burst heal your minions is quite helpful when you are dragging them around the map. BotM->BotM->HA = ~360 health for you minions in under 5s and the MM breaks even healthwise. It also works as a secondary heal spell should BotM become disabled...something that does happen, unfortunately.

By and large, I agree. N/D rocks the socks off of AB. With an AotL N/D MM I've had times when 8 or 10 opposing players couldn't even scratch me. But oh how they do try. When the opposing team wastes 8 or 10 members messing with an invincible target, my team has a very easy time capping. (This probably says a lot about the build quality in AB when 2/3 or more of a 12-man team can't deal with a single build...)

By and large, that same build is nearly useless in PvE. That much defense is overkill against AI that isn't smart enough to prioritize you over those tasty looking, low HP, low AL bags of rotting meat. As overused as it may be, I prefer the N/Mo for most of PvE.

Quote:

And this is what I mean about the MM self heal, there are many options, and the best choice depends on the player, play-style and the particular opponents being faced.

With this, I disagree. Somewhere on GWonline you can find a post where I run the numbers on common MM self-heals. If you (1) factor in healing, e cost, cast time, and recharge time; (2) presume no outside healing (we're looking for self-sufficiency); (3) presume you have max degen to counteract on your minions; and (4) presume no SR hits coming in (you need to move the minions between battles too); then there's only 2 self heals that can support a decent max HP:

Heal Area will support 440 max HP.
AotL will support 1104 max HP (pre-AotL).

Everything else clocks in way below that. (There's a handful of next-best options in the 330 range.)
Masochism should free up some energy for healing, so all my old numbers are now too low, but the effect should be proportionate across everything but healing breeze and blood renewal (since those have healing/time problems rather than energy/time problems).

Heh, actually went and looked up the posts with the math:
Here's the original: link.
Here's the Mystic Regen addendum: link.

Quote:

When I play dual MMs with Olias, I beat him (and opposing MMs) to the corpse 95% of the time, maintain more minions than he does and also deal far, far more damage than he does. I actually have to manage his corpses to make sure he can estabish an army. Hero MMs might be sufficient for most people, but they are by no means as good as it gets.

Heroes positively suck at MMing. They never have used and probably never will use BotM properly. They'll kill themselves with OoU if you give them the chance. They have no conceptions of corpse placement, fiend/melee balance, or minion aggro control, among other things. Probably worst of all, they often lag behind the party and refuse to engage the enemy until they're flagged into it. As I've said before elsewhere, if you think a hero is a suitable replacement for a competent human MM, you've never seen a competent human MM.

Quote:

If you are specced 16 DM and 16 SR then SolS and CC return the same amounts of hp and energy. But while MM's always run 16 DM how often do they run 16 SR as well. 99% of the time CC returns more to the MM than SolS. As well as having no recharge time, whereas SolS has an 8s recharge.

CC also doesnt require targeting OR a specific condition on said target. Hunting targets with SolS is distracting and often frustrating, because targets under 50% don't last long.

Now with CC.... it's not a question of corpse availability. Really. It purely a question of energy. If you don't have enough energy to animate that corpse RIGHT NOW, then that corpse is a detriment to your team. It can be exploited by the other side in a variety of ways, and even if it isn't, it's not doing you any good. Better to burn it for energy, thereby denying it to the other side, and also enabling yourself to animate the NEXT corpse.

In addition, it's often not needed in areas where there are few corpses, because, well..you aren't animating that often, therefore are spending less energy overall. But in areas, with lots of corpses, SR will overflow and stop working. That's a very bad situation...lots of corpses and no energy. In that case, CC is like a 'manual SR' you can trigger it whenever you need, on demand.

The solution to the teleport is: Use your head...be aware of the locations of battlefield corpses. I have NEVER, EVER died because of the CC teleport, ever. Your options in the event of a bad teleport are:

1) Run Away
2) Use CC again

CC >>>> SolS almost always.

You convinced me to try CC during the period of the horrible SR nerf. (As opposed to the current era of the obnoxious and annoying SR nerf...) Pretty much everything you say is true. It does work better than SoLS, and the teleportation is not nearly as likely to kill you as you'd think at first glance. Actually, using it to tele-kite probably saved me more often than a poor landing site killed me.
The issue is somewhat moot now with masochism though. Maso > CC > SoLS.

kaldak · Sep 23, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

hm, nice job with those calculations. it got me thinking though... how bout sticking Dwayna's Sorrow on your monk and taking Masochism and Mystic Regen yourself? Not sure how heroes feel about keeping up Dwayna's Sorrow all the time, but I think it has some potential.

Heck, so long as you've got masochism, you could even afford to run another enchantment (of reasonably long duration) yourself and still be under your e-regen limit. That gives you 432 max life with less downtime while on the move. Of course there is still the matter of finding another worthy enchantment...

Moloch Vein · Sep 23, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

fixed your post.

i think what's been said is enough. mods please close before i have to argue with these retards again.

I have a hard time understanding why the moderators of this forum need to close a thread simply because you're trolling it. By and large, it isn't a bad thread.

In reference to the actual issues raised;

Dark Bond and Infuse Condition simply doesn't get interrupted in a normal situation if you play decently smart. None of the enchantments you maintain have a recast time of more than 20 seconds and they last twice that long at least. Finding a spot to reapply enchantments have really been no problem for me. However, of course, enchantment removal can be a very serious problem, and if the enchantments do get removed, you can then be interrupted if you're forced to recast those in contact with the enemy.

However, how much is actually required for this to happen? First of all, you need to be up against a deep enchantment removal tool. Avatar of Grenth, Rend Enchantments, Gaze of Contempt comes to mind. Second, you need to be up against someone capable of interrupting your spells. Third, if worst comes to worst, you need to be unable to kite. As an MM you don't "tank" if you can avoid it.

The discussion about Lich vs. Order in a pvp setting is quite simple, actually. Basically, are you more concerned about foes bringing life-steal techniques or enchantment-removal techniques? If it is very uncommon to meet, for example, touchies (which it hasn't really been in AB for me) then AoTL might be the way to go. If it is not, I much prefer OoU because then I only have to worry about one problem, and OoU boosts your damage output to a degree where it actually becomes dangerous for most targets to get into your range.

As for Chthon's post, I just want to note that I have given Olias the exact build I advocated in this thread with OoU replacing FG. I have used it for some months now on him, both with myself as N/Rt healer and with hench monks... and in no cases does he suicide. Maybe my Olias is just smarter than everyone else's?

I run him at 411 health with a +20 enchants staff. However Olias does maintain fewer minions running this than running another MM elite so if it's a wall you're looking for in PvE, I think FG or JB is still the way to go.

Chthon · Sep 23, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

As for Chthon's post, I just want to note that I have given Olias the exact build I advocated in this thread with OoU replacing FG. I have used it for some months now on him, both with myself as N/Rt healer and with hench monks... and in no cases does he suicide. Maybe my Olias is just smarter than everyone else's?

I run him at 411 health with a +20 enchants staff. However Olias does maintain fewer minions running this than running another MM elite so if it's a wall you're looking for in PvE, I think FG or JB is still the way to go.

No kidding? Do you hav eit far right on his bar? Maybe I'll need to play around with OoU and see if I can him not to kill himself. At any rate, my central point that the AI at its best doesn't compare with a competent human. Even if it can use OoU without killing itself (and even if it could do that and keep 10 minions all the time), there's still so many shortcomings that the general point is true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaldak

hm, nice job with those calculations. it got me thinking though... how bout sticking Dwayna's Sorrow on your monk and taking Masochism and Mystic Regen yourself? Not sure how heroes feel about keeping up Dwayna's Sorrow all the time, but I think it has some potential.

Heck, so long as you've got masochism, you could even afford to run another enchantment (of reasonably long duration) yourself and still be under your e-regen limit. That gives you 432 max life with less downtime while on the move. Of course there is still the matter of finding another worthy enchantment...

Actually, now that I think about it, I may have to go back and redo all the calculations to account for masochism. Look for it in the near future.

Moloch Vein · Sep 24, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

I have OoU as the fourth skill, I think.

WildmouseX · Sep 25, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

one thing to keep in mind is that mystic regen becomes substantially better the more enchantments you stack on yourself.

given the standard N/D MM, there are 4 enchants: mystic regen, aura of the lich, infuse condition, dark bond. together, that gives +12 regen. since the game caps it at +10, it's +10 with +2 held in reserve. assuming there are no degen being applied to you, it gives a pretty impressive 400hp over 20 seconds. given the health loss+damage reduction from aura of the lich, this just becomes extremely powerful.

another reason why N/D is the better choice (although running a MM there in the first place is a bad idea) in AB is the neverending supply of corpses. in such an environment, the ability to sustain your minions is not very important, since you can keep making new ones. staying alive on the otherhand is more important, since it keeps your minions from going berserk on your own teammates.

the achilles heel of this build is that once you lose one or more of your enchantments, the healing from mystic regen goes with them. having aura of the lich and dark bond interrupted/removed will not only cause you to lose your passive damage reduction, but also cause the health regen to bottom out at the same time. the result can often be absolutely hilarious: one moment the N/D MM is imperious to damage, the next moment they pop like an ugly zit because they only have ~450hp and only trivial health regen.

i love seeing a N/D on the other team... while my AB is a refinement of my PVe curse build, the N/D is the target that it fit perfectly aginst - so anyone looking for a counter to this stragity, look here

[skill]suffering[/skill][skill]faintheartedness[/skill][skill]images of remorse[/skill][skill]conjure phantasm[/skill][skill]mantra of signets[/skill][skill]signet of suffering[/skill][skill]defile enchantments[/skill][skill]verata's aura[/skill]

i always start out takeing on a MM by stealin their minnions.... i don't realy care about haveing them, as much as i do about denying the mm from haveing them. - make sure to keep 5 points in death magic so verata's will always work, then run in somewhere where you can get shoulder to shoulder with the largest amount of his minnions you can find (have to be closer then agro for the skill to work)

then, there is -10 degen that fully counters that builds +10 regen - that wasn't the inital reason for me choosing those hex's to fuel sig of suffering, but it works.... in normal situations your target won't have +10 regen, so your -10 will work as presure hexing untill your spikes hit, then it becomes a finisher.

now then, with 4 hex's in place sig of suffering is 140 dmg, twice for 280....and then since the N/D is nice enough to pile 4 enchants on themselves, defile flesh hits for 64 +84 or a total or 148 .......all for a total of 428 points of damage in a 3 hit strike. -- if that doesn't drop himm, hit him with a wand a couple of times, since the N/D build depends of regen for healing and you've got it blocked it's easy pickings to knock off the last few health points he has.

this build can bring down any other build, from any other class, in one run through the skill bar, but when you see a N/D while you're running it, you get this special smile that only a few will ever know.

Moloch Vein · Sep 26, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

^ Oh, yes, except for the fact that either the MM has no minions, in which case he isn't worth killing, or he has minions, and will only take 1/4 of the damage you deal him. Not to mention you don't have one single enchant removal spell on that bar.

WildmouseX · Sep 26, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

^ Oh, yes, except for the fact that either the MM has no minions, in which case he isn't worth killing, or he has minions, and will only take 1/4 of the damage you deal him. Not to mention you don't have one single enchant removal spell on that bar.

if he has no minnions, then you don't need to use V's aura.......otherwise, taking the minnions away from him with verata's aura, takes away his damage reducuction...... and since you already have his enchants negated with -10 degen, leaving them there to increase the damage of defile enchantments serves you better.