Curse

arsie · Jul 25, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Strange question, but does anyone have a good idea how to practise to be a better MM?

I've been too pampered by Olias and Masters of Whispers, so haven't really been doing much MMing.

Recently, I have attempted to MM, but the AI necros beat me to almost every corpse. Kinda embarrassing to walk around with 3 minions, while Masters of Whispers is surrounded by 10.

The AI also appear to be able to keep them up much better than I do. I have no problems understanding the builds, I can get Olias and MoW to do it decently enough.

Are there any tips and tricks to practise MMing? Anything I should watch out for? And how to monitor the minions in the thick of things?

WildmouseX · Jul 25, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

get rid of the hero mm's... their always going to beat you too the corpse's because they know when the corpse is avilible from the server before your computer even draws the guy die..

even if you get to the point where you can get an army up with them having 1 too, when you use BoTM you're going to sac yourself nearly to death because you sac for all your groups minnions, not just yours.

if you want bigger mobs of minions, then only give them jagged bones and BoTM, and the rest monk healing spells, that way they only get their minions from your's dyeing.

go to areas with lower lvl creatures, with good sized mobs of fleshy creatures , so you can focus on raising and maintaining an army more then surviving.

ZenRgy · Jul 25, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Bloodstained boots.
2/3 minion spells in your bar.
Mash your keyboard.
???
AUTO SUMMON MODE

Div · Jul 25, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Heroes will have faster reflex time than humans on using corpses. As for keeping them up, BotM and Heal area is nice...

BladeDVD · Jul 25, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

20/20 half spell cast and half spell recharge on wand and offhand help too.

When picking your minion skills keep recharge in mind. Most of them are pretty short, but you don't want to be stuck with only Shambling and Vampiric Horrors on your bar.

Lastly, watch enemy health bars and start hitting your animate skill when it starts getting low.

If there are significant pauses between fights then bring Heal Area or it's Factions copy Karei's Healing Circle to help heal in between fights. When not fighting all your minions will be close enough to you to be affected. I usually do BotM and then Karei's to heal the sacrifice and do extra healing on minions.

Skyros · Jul 28, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I'd goto Deldrimor War Camp and join up with the B/P farm grps there (hm/nm). The usual setup for nm is 3 Rangers, 1 necro (you), and a monk healer.

Sorrow's Furnace isnt a very hard area and you can get familiar with MMing again through a couple of runs. It will also keep you on your toes because the gnashers and Dark binders (stone summit necromancers) willl compete with you for the bodies with Wells and there own minions.

Another place (although slightly harder) is finding a grp in the Ruin of the Tomb of Primeval Kings area. Same build setup with a larger party of 8. Most of the parties there prefer HM so you may want to drop fiends for more durable close combat horrors and shambling horrors.

All this practice however will not make you any faster at MMing then a hero unfortunately.

dsnesnintendo · Jul 28, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Vizunah Square is the best place for 3 reasons

1. You'll find a group people always need an mm there
2. MASS CHAOS it will teach you when to cast and when to run
3.massive corpses will allow you to always have minions

good luck cause nothing is better then having 10 minions at ur disposal( exceot b4 the update and having 180)

mrmango · Jul 28, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Dark Bond (Blood Magic) is your best friend, after minion casting spells.

Sleeper Service · Jul 28, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

A little background.
My main char is a mm. all 3 chapters done allmost exclusively with a mm build except where there is heavy fire damage [bane of mm's], large numbers of dervish will also be a problem [holy damage+fire]

Like it was recomended above, Sorrows Furnace is the place to learn.

i run a 3 minion build, vampiric, jagged and fiends. sometimes if speed is essential ill switch one of the mellee for a regular horror [5 second cooldown].

Using bloodstained insigna is essential. having 20%HCT/HSR is pretty much obligatory.

Blood of the Master is the ONLY minion heal skill i take. Be aware that since the update only "pure" MM's do well, you need those points in SR when the SR cap kicks in use the SR signet to regain hp and energy.

Now the key lies not with that build [pretty straightforward as you can see] but with the team Monk. A lot of Monks never or rarely use Healing Breeze but that single skill will enable a MM to spam [once every3 seconds or MORE when the degen hits max] BOTM. Movement is pain because you have to be constantly casting botm.

For that reason using "hp pip regen" Monks are more effective that the "point heal" ones [costs less energy and they can heal someone else while you do your thing]
Many Human monks get pissed off at this and often complain about ones lack of Heal Area. but for Heal Area to be effective you need to put in at least 9 atrib points into healing prayers. and thats a LOT in SR value. On top of that using healing prayers just isnt cost effective when compared to BOTM.

The first group of enemys will allmost allways have to be taken care of by the team [as a pure mm has little or no direct damage. except for the new Sunspear skill which is waaaay overpowered...so things aint so bad now]

the second group of enemys will allmost allways face insta death if done right [order of undeath] after that its a cakewalk.

so to cut it short, what makes a good MM is :

1. A good Monk with a hp pip regen skill.
2. A good tank to keep the nastys away from you and to take care of that first group [that or a good hero with a little micromanagement, or 2 normal war henchies]
3. Botm/OoU spaming and timing

MM's have gone from gods dominating Tyria to requiring a team...but we are still the biggest damage dealers by FAR. ^^

happy hunting.

Moloch Vein · Jul 28, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

What makes a good Minion Master is very simple:

Necromancer/Dervish.

My Olias will beat the living hell out of 95% of all MMs running the following:

Dark Bond - Infuse Conditions - Mystic Regeneration - Animate Flesh Golem - Animate Bone Fiend - Animate Bone Horror - Signet Of Lost Souls - Blood Of The Master

Earth Prayers 8 Death Magic max rest in Soul Reaping plus maybe a little in Blood for Dark Bond duration, 20% Enchant staff.

Build can be tailored as seen fit for a real person with OoU or Aura of the Lich.

Minion masters who rely on the monks to be able to maintain their minions aren't even worth the name.

Moloch Vein · Jul 28, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Also to the original poster if you simply want to feel a lil more macho while retaining the functionality of two MMs, just give the heroes long recharge minion spells, and/or Jagged Bones.

Sleeper Service · Jul 29, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

What makes a good Minion Master is very simple:

Necromancer/Dervish.

My Olias will beat the living hell out of 95% of all MMs running the following:

Dark Bond - Infuse Conditions - Mystic Regeneration - Animate Flesh Golem - Animate Bone Fiend - Animate Bone Horror - Signet Of Lost Souls - Blood Of The Master

Earth Prayers 8 Death Magic max rest in Soul Reaping plus maybe a little in Blood for Dark Bond duration, 20% Enchant staff.

Build can be tailored as seen fit for a real person with OoU or Aura of the Lich.

Minion masters who rely on the monks to be able to maintain their minions aren't even worth the name.

the op is asking for tips in player controled MMIng. Not how your hero wins the internet, why heroes are generally better at certain types of MMing has been explained.
Whats more, there is nothing wrong in expecting that a Mo fullfill their role in a team. Expecting that all players be able to self heal is begging for less efficient builds.

Moloch Vein · Jul 29, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

^ And I provided the tips. I also provided a build that will with little practice make him far more efficient as a minion master than the old shoddy N/Mo builds.

The current thinking regarding the Minion Master needs a reality check. Currently there is a build at pvx being rated 4.5-5.0 and receiving statements such as "Godly" and "Perfect". It's a OoU build with no self heal, no Dark Bond and no Infuse Conditions touted as suitable for Alliance Battles. If you don't believe me, http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/..._Minion_Master

I expect the monks to do their job, which is to _protect me under fire_. I don't expect all players to be able to self heal; for an SS necromancer that's often ridiculous. But, I do expect a character that _relies on health sacrifice to maintain his usefulness_ to be able to _counter_ said health sacrifice. Putting it another way, would you rather that your minion army be the _last_ thing that breaks under pressure, or the _first_?

Minion masters with no effective self heal and no self protection are about as silly as a Dark Aura bomber would be without Mystic Regeneration or Blood Renewal.

BladeDVD · Jul 31, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Many Human monks get pissed off at this and often complain about ones lack of Heal Area. but for Heal Area to be effective you need to put in at least 9 atrib points into healing prayers. and thats a LOT in SR value. On top of that using healing prayers just isnt cost effective when compared to BOTM.

When I MM I usually spec attrib at 12 Death, 9 SR, 9 something else. With runes and hat that gets me a 16 Death and 10 SR. Putting that last 9 into SR would only get me 3 more points per kill of energy. It's not a lot, and it makes for more interesting and useful MM builds. Add in Signet of Lost Souls and you're pretty good for energy.

At 9 Healing, you're getting something like 100-130hp of healing for each minion when they aren't fighting, about the same as BoTM. It's a great skill to use when you are maintaining minions between fights.

I play with hero/hench a lot so I've stopped taking self heals (usually use vamp. horrors when I go OoUndeath though) because you can't stop the hero/hench monks from healing you when you cast BoTM.

greywolf31 · Sep 21, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

What makes a good Minion Master is very simple:

Necromancer/Dervish.

My Olias will beat the living hell out of 95% of all MMs running the following:

Dark Bond - Infuse Conditions - Mystic Regeneration - Animate Flesh Golem - Animate Bone Fiend - Animate Bone Horror - Signet Of Lost Souls - Blood Of The Master

Earth Prayers 8 Death Magic max rest in Soul Reaping plus maybe a little in Blood for Dark Bond duration, 20% Enchant staff.

Build can be tailored as seen fit for a real person with OoU or Aura of the Lich.

Minion masters who rely on the monks to be able to maintain their minions aren't even worth the name.

THANKS!

I will try this, I was looking for a way to tweak Olias.

Any tips on tweaking MoS?

FYI - I don't have factions just all of the others.

THX

EDIT: Infuse Condition - Where can I get that Skill from a Hero Trainer?

Coloneh · Sep 22, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

that N/D build was decent except when he said to use fleshie. its crap. a mystic regen build just SCREAMS AotL. use it!

Carinae · Sep 22, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

that N/D build was decent except when he said to use fleshie. its crap. a mystic regen build just SCREAMS AotL. use it!

Agreed. I also don't see how his build is 'more efficient' than N/Mo. The important thing is to have a self heal, beyond that everyone can decide for themselves which self heal is best.

Also, SoLS sucks on a player's bar. Use SoLS on heroes only. Consume Corpse is just plain better for players.

Moloch Vein · Sep 22, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Infuse Condition is a Prophecies skill so, Dakk in Ember Light Camp.

Regarding exactly why the N/D combo is superior to the N/Mo one, I've written about that quite a lot, but alright, I'll write it again.

Dark Bond will make you take 1/4 of the damage, and Infuse Condition will make you immune to all conditions, provided that you have minions. Most will agree that these spells are pretty good.

Given that you are maintaining these enchantments, can anyone show me a spell that beats +9 HP regeneration for 20 seconds, at a cost of 10e, for an investment of 8 Earth Prayers? Exactly what spell in the Healing Prayers line even comes close?

Aura of the Lich builds are extremely susceptible to life steals which is why I'm reluctant to suggest it as a "standard" PvE build. However the build I wrote can be used exactly as described with switching Flesh Golem for Order of Undeath (which is what I use myself, both on me and Olias), or Aura if that's your cup of tea. This I also noted above. I suggested Flesh Golem simply because it's by far the easiest for a beginner to use. One advantage of him is that he creates a high HP anchor for your Dark Bond and Infuse Condition, which means you're unlikely to completely run out of minions.

About Consume Corpse, there are many areas where corpse utilization is at a premium and where every new minion you can raise will provide valuable. Then there's the messy teleport issue. If players can't bother with actively targetting enemies and hitting the signet (which I must confess I do not find very hard) I'd suggest using Masochism.

Darkpower Alchemist · Sep 22, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

I'll only comment on the consume/SoLS argument, as the rest is rather obvious to me in the sense that with the right build the sac spells are countered with proper enchantment useage.

The use of [skill]consume corpse[/skill] shouldn't be in contention with [skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill], but should be considered a viable alternative. In a corpse heavy area, you will never use all the corpses, so CC works great. In places where corpses are to a lesser degree of abundance, SoLS would certainly be prefered.

Afterall, their uses are for different points in any battle but achieve the same goal in the end.

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

a much better question is: how can you be bad at playing a MM?