Curse

BR0KN · Sep 29, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Hey guys. I'm new to GW. Just bought it like 3 hours ago.

Can you suggest a decent MM build using just the basic skills you can buy?

Thanks in advance.

mrmango · Sep 30, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Animate Shambling Horror/Bone Fiend are your main skills. Bring Blood of the master. Go /D for mystic regen.

Chthon · Sep 30, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Truthfully, the Nightfall-only skillset is subpar for Minion Masters. [skill]animate Shambling horror[/skill] is junk in terms of recharge, and the jagged horrors it spawns are absolute junk in terms of damage (no, the bleeding only rarely makes up for their lower base damage), armor, and life. That leaves you without a really viable melee minion - something Prophecies and Factions both had. Eventually, you can look forward to [skill]Order of Undeath[/skill], which is probably the best MM elite in any chapter, but that's not till some 3/4 of the way through NF.

The NF-only skillset is much better suited to Minion Bombing however. [skill]animate bone minions[/skill], [skill]death nova[/skill], and [skill]taste of death[/skill] are all core. NF gives you [skill]putrid flesh[/skill], which can replace taste of death (or move it to emergency heal status); [skill]animate shambling horror[/skill], which is as good for MB as it is bad for MM; and eventually [skill]jagged bones[/skill]. IMO, you'd be much better off as MB if you're using the NF-only skillset.

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(Since you're quite new, brief description of MM vs MB may be in order:

A MM focuses on building an army out of the strongest minions available and then using those minions to deal damage via their attacks and tank for the team. These minions are usually the most expensive -- usually 5-7x [skill]animate bone fiend[/skill] at 25e each and 3-5x [skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill] or [skill]animate vampiric horror[/skill] at 10e or 15e each. And the MM has to maintain the army by casting [skill]Blood of the Master[/skill] a lot (the baseline is once ever 6.1 sec, adjusted from there for minion youth and monster damage). Finally, a MM needs a good self heal to counteract the life sacrifice on blood of the master.

A MB focuses on summoning the cheapest minions available, then enchanting them with [skill]death nova[/skill], then killing them off with [skill]putrid flesh[/skill] or [skill]taste of death[/skill] to get a nice AoE explosion, plus poison (plus disease if you use putrid flesh) -- and repeating as quickly as possible. [skill]animate bone minions[/skill] and/or [skill]animate shambling horror[/skill] are the minions of choice, since they only cost 7.5e each. When [skill]jagged bones[/skill] becomes available, it provides a minion for 5e.

Before you ask: No, hybridizing MM and MB into one build is not a good idea. Blowing up expensive minions is a bad idea. Trying to deal damage and tank with cheap minions is a bad idea. Spending energy and life to heal a minion only to turn around and blow it up a second later is a bad idea. Simply put, although they both use minions, MM and MB are builds that work at cross-purposes and just don't mix well.

Tarzanboy · Oct 01, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

I'd agree with Chton's analysis of the situation and think that Minion Bombing is really the way to go:

You're given Animate Bone Minions to start with.
Death Nova and Animate Shambling Horror (I dislike the long refresh though) are available in Kamadan.

If you have concerns about keeping those minions around for longer, say because you need to travel across a clear map to kill something you overlooked or have nothing around (no animals or corpses) to gen from, Blood of the Master is also available at Kamadan.
Feast of the Dead is likewise available in Kamadan, although it'd be better used to retain existing expensive minions (such as a Bone Fiend) at the cost of a cheaper one (such as a Bone Minion) rather than to keep other cheaper minions around.

If you belong to a guild that has a skill trainer, you can get Taste of Death for self healing gratification (otherwise there is a wait for getting it in NF) and spontaneous explosive action.

Putrid Explosion is available once you complete Consulate Docks (be careful using this on human enemies btw).

Jagged Bones is an elite available towards the end of NF.

Also, make sure that you get a blood stained insignia as the casting benefit can become crucial when competing for corpses or needing to regen minions in a fight.

Cheers,
TB

zwei2stein · Oct 01, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Before you ask: No, hybridizing MM and MB into one build is not a good idea. Blowing up expensive minions is a bad idea. Trying to deal damage and tank with cheap minions is a bad idea. Spending energy and life to heal a minion only to turn around and blow it up a second later is a bad idea. Simply put, although they both use minions, MM and MB are builds that work at cross-purposes and just don't mix well.

Here, i will strongly disagree.

MM only really needs two skills: BoTM and Bone Fiends. Extras improve him, but not that much. Meele minions damage is not really that good and their utility is more in tanking that damaging.

OFC, blowing fiend is not cool. But it does not really hurt you to throw nova once in a while on weak horror or so, since as MM you should have both time and energy to do it.

Taste of death should be on proper MM bar too, since it basically back-to-full-hp skill. I would prefer tasting fiend to get life back to level where i can resume with BoTM., Much better than waiting for heal and leaving minions weak, usually having it die anyway.

Also, novaing all meele minions before encountering highdamage boss is good idea - you are sure that they deliver at least some damage instead of just blowing up.

Thing is, you are much better off with having few MB tools on MM skillbar. It takes nothing away, and ability to change strategy in midbattle is worth it. Since both builds use same attributes, why not do it?

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OP: If you find Bomber build fun, make sure you try it with ritualist primary, which is kinda better at that particular job.

Chthon · Oct 01, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Here, i will strongly disagree.

MM only really needs two skills: BoTM and Bone Fiends. Extras improve him, but not that much. Meele minions damage is not really that good and their utility is more in tanking that damaging.

OFC, blowing fiend is not cool. But it does not really hurt you to throw nova once in a while on weak horror or so, since as MM you should have both time and energy to do it.

Taste of death should be on proper MM bar too, since it basically back-to-full-hp skill. I would prefer tasting fiend to get life back to level where i can resume with BoTM., Much better than waiting for heal and leaving minions weak, usually having it die anyway.

Also, novaing all meele minions before encountering highdamage boss is good idea - you are sure that they deliver at least some damage instead of just blowing up.

Thing is, you are much better off with having few MB tools on MM skillbar. It takes nothing away, and ability to change strategy in midbattle is worth it. Since both builds use same attributes, why not do it?

You're not advocating a hybrid, so much as a MM with with death nova and taste of death on the bar. It sounds like you're occasionally tossing death nova on a weak minion or throwing it around when you expect a boss to wipe the army. But you're not actively detonating you minions like a true MB. Without active detonation to speed things up, you've got a much lower frequency of death nova explosions, and thus a much lower DPS out of the skill. At that point, I wonder if other skills in Death Magic or going to provide more bang for the buck than death nova used passively. IMO, you shouldn't be losing minions often enough to make passive death novas give you better DPS than, say, well of suffering or rotting flesh. But, if you're losing minions at a rate that makes death nova worthwhile, and you're still able to stay at 10 minions in general, then go for it with death nova.

As for taste of death, I don't think we disagree at all here. I never have any problem with anyone bringing it on any minion-using build as an emergency self-heal. It's great for that purpose. What I don't approve of is spending 25e for a fiend, slapping death nova on it, then tasting it just to get the explosion -- but we both agree that's dumb.
In sum: Taste for emergency self-heal on any build = good; Taste for active minion detonation of cheap minions on MB = good; Taste for active minion detonation of expensive minion = bad.

Quote:

OP: If you find Bomber build fun, make sure you try it with ritualist primary, which is kinda better at that particular job.

Now that SR is halfway fixed, I'm not sure if the Rt/N MB remains better, but it is certainly good. Definitely give it a try. Key skills are [skill]Boon of Creation[/skill] and [skill]Explosive Growth[/skill]

Tarzanboy · Oct 01, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

OP: If you find Bomber build fun, make sure you try it with ritualist primary, which is kinda better at that particular job.

That would require he have Factions, which is implied by the subject, he does not.

I am not sure there is a definite winner in the Rt/N vs N/x competition for minion bombing.

The Rt/N requires the 2 enchantments to be successful, which can be problematic in areas with heavy enchantment removal (which would affect the minions retaining their payload as well) or the ever popular interrupt. The lack of the 2 skill spots on the N/x allows for usage of skills that might help the party such as Dwayna's Sorrow or whatever else floats your boat.

The Rt/N would gain more energy from creation of bone minions, +10 at 11-14 SP every 5 seconds yielding 2 energy per sec. Simply stated, the N/x would gain even more when anything dies, +11-14 at 11-14 SP yielding 2.2 to 2.8 energy per sec. Even if Jagged Bones counts to the creation cycle, the Rt/N build would still only net 35e every 15 seconds, yielding 2.33 e per sec.

Return on Explosive Growth is questionable at times, as minions are often created outside the foe's radius or after the battle battle is over, yet the effect in a group can be quite devastating with bone minion creation.

Getting the corpse is more in the favor of the Nec, as the Rt/N does not get the benefit of the bloodstained insignia's 25% reduction in cast time bonus. A case could also be made for the N/x not having to flip equipment to ensure the maximum benefit of enchantments in SP vs fastest recharge and best minions in DM.

Cheers,
TB

Postscript: Nice discussion btw.

Chthon · Oct 02, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarzanboy

That would require he have Factions, which is implied by the subject, he does not.

Yeah... that's a major problem both Z and I overlooked...

Quote:

I am not sure there is a definite winner in the Rt/N vs N/x competition for minion bombing.

I'm not either.

Quote:

The Rt/N requires the 2 enchantments to be successful, which can be problematic in areas with heavy enchantment removal (which would affect the minions retaining their payload as well) or the ever popular interrupt.

Indeed, heavy removal is a problem with 45sec recharge. Fortunately the monsters aren't very good at prioritizing master over minions. Losing a 5e, quick recharge enchant off a minion isn't anything to worry about.

Quote:

The Rt/N would gain more energy from creation of bone minions

Before SR got broken into a million pieces, this comparison was very easy: The necro got 13e per minion when it died and the Rt got 6e per minion when it was born. Advantage necro. (Assume 13 SR and 16 SP; there's virtually no reason to run anything else (except maybe dwayna's sorrow).)

Now that SR is royally messed up, it gets a little harder. If things are slow, the figures are the same: N:13/minion, Rt: 6/minion. But when are deaths less than 4 per 15 seconds with a MB around? Almost never.
We can also look at the other possible extreme: Things are dying left and right, so the necro is limited to (3 * 13e)/15sec = 2.6e/sec (probably a little less due to the poor implementation of the cap). And the Rt is going to be limited by recycle time on animate bone minions. (Recycle = cast + recharge, btw -- that's where your model went off track.) So that would be (2minions * 6e/minion)/8sec = 1.5e/sec using bone minions alone. Using shambling horror in addition to bone minions would get you another (2minions * 6e/minion)/28sec ~= 0.43 for a grand total of ~1.93.

So, we know for certain that the N beats the Rt for energy at either extreme. We can say that it's likely the N also beats the Rt at every point in between. However, there may be some situations where the screwy behavior from the SR cap puts the Rt ahead.

Quote:

Return on Explosive Growth is questionable at times, as minions are often created outside the foe's radius or after the battle battle is over, yet the effect in a group can be quite devastating with bone minion creation.

1. Minions are often created during battle too, right at the feet of the fallen monster's comrades.
2. The birth of a jagged horror triggers explosive growth. Unless the previous minion got taken out at range, this is almost guaranteed to be right up on top of a monster.

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Getting the corpse is more in the favor of the Nec, as the Rt/N does not get the benefit of the bloodstained insignia's 25% reduction in cast time bonus.

True.

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A case could also be made for the N/x not having to flip equipment to ensure the maximum benefit of enchantments in SP vs fastest recharge and best minions in DM.

Not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that a Rt/N has to flip equipment on the fly? I can't see why you'd want anything other than a +4SR headpiece and dual 20/20 death items (or maybe 20/20focus + 20/+5e^50 wand). Both EG and BoC outlast their recycle times without any help from enchanting or faster recharge mods. And the benefit of 20% +1SP is both small and unlikely. I really don't see what the Rt would switch to to help the enchants. Or do I just misunderstand?

Tarzanboy · Oct 02, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

1. Minions are often created during battle too, right at the feet of the fallen monster's comrades.
2. The birth of a jagged horror triggers explosive growth. Unless the previous minion got taken out at range, this is almost guaranteed to be right up on top of a monster.

1. I agree with completely in that minions are created as corpses become available, regardless if it is beginning, mid or end of fight. The principle that it is always creating at the feet of the enemy, well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes the mobs will break aggro and chase squishies only to die with nothing but friendlies around or the lone caster dies outside of the aggro pile radius. Regardless, if it occurs where you do get a pile and a corpse is exploited the 136 (or 204 if exploitable and Jagged Bones was cast on a minion that exploded) lightning damage would be well worth the 5 point cost.

2. Agreed. Since I haven't used Jagged Bones or Animate Shambling Horror on my Rit I was not sure if it triggered or not.

Quote:

Not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that a Rt/N has to flip equipment on the fly? I can't see why you'd want anything other than a +4SR headpiece and dual 20/20 death items (or maybe 20/20focus + 20/+5e^50 wand). Both EG and BoC outlast their recycle times without any help from enchanting or faster recharge mods. And the benefit of 20% +1SP is both small and unlikely. I really don't see what the Rt would switch to to help the enchants. Or do I just misunderstand?

While Explosive Growth, Boon of Creation and Spirit's Gift (the occasionally tossed in helper enchant) all would normally outlive the 45 second recharge times, there exists the possibility of enchantment stripping from such wonderful things as Well of the Profane or Rend Enchantments. Assuming that the Rt/N is running with full Halycon/Radiant armor (+8e), 4 Attunement runes (+8e, although some will only run with 3 or less in favor of a vigor rune and/or vitae), Ghial's Staff (+15e) or some wand/offhand equivalent (+12-17) you're looking at between 59-63 total energy. If hit early enough into the fight, the Rt/N would be mired in energy drain hell: -15e per pair of minions created, -10e per pair to Death Nova, either -20e per pair for Putrid Flesh or -10e per pair for Taste of Death. So for 2 bone minions alone, the cost would be 35 at the least (ToD) or 45 (PF) and 2 bone minions are often only the start of the fun. Add on a early cast of Rotting Flesh (-15e) or Putrid Bile (-10e), the Rt/N could seriously be in trouble.

This albeit unlikely scenario, makes for a prefight contingency of using a second set of equipment for Spawning Power at either 20/20 or 10/10, while the 20% enchant would be nice to ensure you aren't having to do a recast at the end of an extended fight.

Cheers,
TB