Curse

Evilsod · Sep 13, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

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Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

For one, Zealous Sweep does more damage and costs less energy than lyssa's, allowing for a better net gain of energy. Also, you gain 4 of the 5 energy spent from just hitting one foe (zealous scythes are ftw).

No valid points there. If you hit 1 target, you lose 2 energy, hit 2 targets, you gain 1 energy, hit 3 targets, you gain 4 energy. I run 16 Scythe, Lyssa's Assault ALWAYS returns 3 energy, even at 13 Scythe it returns 1 energy, the equivilent of hitting 2 targets with Zealous Sweep. It also does only 5 extra damage, its more, but not enough to make it a valid point, especially when it has a lower recharge. And what was the point about Zealous Scythes? Can they not be used if your taking Lyssa' Assault or something?

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22 at 13 scythe. It's not hard to maintain that much energy.. and +44 damage, well.. hurts.

Yes it is. Your max energy is 25 without Radiant Insignia, a max of 33 energy, personally i'll stick with Windwalker's, others seem to prefer Survivor (like Coloneh who seems obsessed with having way more health than his hench). Just casting Heart of Fury and Aura of Holy Might costs 20 energy. Pious Fury obviously regens you 3-4 energy by removing the enchantment (another question, why (Coloneh) are you not using a Major Mysticism to reach the 5e returned breakpoint? I think thats worthy of sacrificing 35 health), but since its a bad skill anyway its not exactly worth mentioning. Mystic/Eremite's kick out WAY more damage than Radiant Scythe does thanks to the high base damage of the Scythe itself, why else do you think people run Protectors Strike, even though you can't increase its ranks?

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You obviously don't use it except against balled enemies. When used it provides great pressure, consistant pressure. Eremite's / mystic have a recharge time.

No, when used for a 1man FARMING build its good. When used in a regularly team its a waste of a slot. Your taking an attack skill purely because your going to save it to use against a few foes that happen to ball up? Just so you can do damage. The recharge and Eremite's/Mystic means bugger all, its 4 seconds, they also work against pretty much any target. Its the exact same reason why Reaper's Sweep sucks compared to Wounding Strike. Your bringing along an attack skill that you will never use until you meet a certain condition, thus reducing your general damage output. If your hitting 3 foes with Reaper's Sweep, only 1 may be below 50%, Wounding Strike works on all 3 regardless. Mystic/Eremite's will dish out lots of damage and can be used regardless of how many enemies happen to be stood together. You underline/bold *consistant* when your describing a skill thats only worth using if you hit more than 1 target. All i can say is, get a clue...

And before you start getting picky, this is completely different to skills like Victorious Sweep. That has a 4s recharge, with alot of added damage, its healing effect is merely a nice bonus, not a waste of an attack skill if you don't wait till somethings on low health.

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The effect takes place whether or not you removed an enchantment. If you take a look at the build, the only enchantment removed gives an extra 6 secs of ias. With Dwayna AND meditation i don't see why the prot monks should be spamming so many enchants on you

I used this build and not once did i need to strip a monk enchant to have my ias...

Perhaps your just been dense... I'll stick with an IAS that doesn't ruin any protection a monk gives me. If your left with a choice of Prot Spirit/Shield of Absorption or 33% IAS on a build without Eremite's to ignore the attack speed, thats your fault. I'll just use Heart of Fury, which can be easily covered, can be kept up for a long time with Eternal Aura and doesn't force me to remove useful enchantments.

A Dervish Scythe build primarily to deal damage without at least 1 of Mystic Sweep or Eremite's Attack is a crap damage dealing build, end of story.

Bowstring Badass · Sep 13, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

I have been playing with radiant scythe, crippling victory, and victorious sweep, avatar of dwayna, pious fury, pious haste, mending touch (can be changed), res sig in random arenas on my dervish works pretty well.

Coloneh · Sep 14, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Evilsod. you dont seem to have tried the new GWEN skills. farmers and zealous are amazing in PvE if you know how to control aggro. learn to ball up your foes and youll see what i mean. and using a major rune to reach 15 myst in a build with 1 enchantment isnt useful at all. also i really cant think of any enchantments that i wouldnt want to lose for pious fury except prot spirit when facing an ele boss or something.

Evilsod · Sep 14, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Random arena... it means nothing. Mending wammo's work well in there...

Evilsod · Sep 14, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Right right... i'm saying they're pretty crap after finally bringing my Derv to GWEN because i haven't actually tried them.

The only useful enchantment you can think of is Prot Spirit? So... Shield of Absorption? Shield of Regen? Healing Seed? Vigorous Spirit? Shielding Hands? None of these are useful enchantments that are quite common to find in PvE? You seem to be pretty obsessed with tanking at the moment been as both Zealous Sweep and Farmer's Scythe rely on it to be useful. Yet none of those very useful enchantments that aid in tanking seem to have come to mind?

Seriously, its 35 health for 1 more energy every time you remove and enchanting... live a little.

Again, your using new skills for the sake of using new skills, not because they're actually good.

Coloneh · Sep 14, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

your the only player in game and on the forums who dosnt like the new skills. most of the community thinks they need a nerf. Im assuming you haven't tried them.

I suppose shield of regen would be nice to keep on, but the rest are either short-duration, or not as useful as pious fury.

Evilsod · Sep 14, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Your corpse isn't useful either because you kept removing prot.

And really? What other people? Your the only 1 i've seen who seems to be praising them so far. The only other 1 in this thread is Dan, and his reasons were flawed. And none of you have even come up with any good reasons.

You like Zealous Sweep, why? You don't like Lyssa's Assault. It has a lower recharge, does slightly less damage has a far more consistant return in energy.

You haven't even given a reason yet as to why Radiant Scythe is good. Even though Victorious Sweep quite obviously comes out on top if your not focusing on maintining your energy above 25 at all times purely so you can make this skill worth using while sacrificing using other attack skills.

Your reasons about Farmer's Scythe weren't even reasons. It was 'learn to tank'. How exactly do you lure a mob of 4 or 5 things into a bottle neck... IN A FIELD!? Or has your dervish been eating all the pies so nothing can get past?

Stop making crap up. Nobody thinks these skills should be nerfed. At least nobody with any sense to compare them to the old skills without simply reading the max damage limit of Radiant Scythe and going ZOMG NERF!

Utaku · Sep 14, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Tried the new attack skills, and went back to eremite, mystic, victorious and reaper's/wounding.
The reasons are: more consistent damage and better recharge.

Even pious assault has more use than the new attacks.

Bassu · Sep 14, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Depending on what kind of build I'm currently running, but...
Zealous Scythe is an amazing skill. Since Zealous mod is in 3/4 of dervish builds a must, even if you strike a single foe you regain 4e. And it's really not that hard to hit more than one foe. Since I'm pretty much always the first to aggro the mobs, the lining is all up to me. And it's not that hard to line up at least 2 foes, even in the field. And in GWEN, there are lot of walls to hug you know, so the chances are you'll get yourself like 5 foes directly ahead of you. So the energy gain is <3. I love this skill. And it is great for high energy avatars like Grenth/Melandru or even Balthy.
About the Radiant Scythe - I really like this one too. The damage output is incredible, and this skill is great for beginning-combo move.
And that's why in most of my builds I run Victorious, Mystic, Radiant/Zealous.

Pious Fury is a good skill, but I think it needs a buff, it last too short for a loss of an enchantment (I know here it's used for EA, but I'm generalising, still HoF>PF).
Meditation sucks in PvE. When I need healing from it, I get overenchanted by monk enchantments and I gain energy instead of this >100 hp I need.

But I like this build, have been using very similar in some areas when, shortly after GWEN has been released. Nothing new, but yeah, not everyone is so inventive so kudos for posting it. Good job.

Evilsod · Sep 14, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

No... the energy gain from this skill isn't <3. Stop been blinded by the fact its a new frigging skill. Sloth Hunters Shot is a new skill, that doesn't change the fact it can be easily turned into a fancy Power Shot! It gains --->1<--- energy more than Lyssa's Assault if your hit --->3<--- targets. Why the hell does everyone seem to think Zealous Sweep is godly when it ISN'T! (i would say quite clearly isn't, but people are obviously just not paying attention to it).

If you take recharge into the equation and assume your hitting 3 targets w/ a Zealous mod while enchanted. 6 energy in 8 seconds vs 7 energy in 10 seconds. Over 60 seconds, Lyssa is 45 (6x7.5) energy gained, Zealous is 42 (7x6) energy gained. Lower the number of enemies hit and Lyssa's Assault stomps all over it. Lets go further, damage dealt in this time. 21x7.5 = 150.5 from Lyssa and 26x6 = 156. Big whoop, over 60 seconds you've dealt a whole 5 damage more than Lyssa's Assault using the weapon with the highest critical hit in the game.

And define 'incredible' with regard to Radiant. The only Avatar Radiant will work well with is Lyssa. There is nothing to debate. Its fact. Without it you will never have the max energy to justify taking this and actually be able to do something useful while its recharging. Grenth is useless in PvE. Melandru is way too expensive to use with this skill and is only really useful itself in the blind-bot dungeon that is Shards of Orr in PvE. Balthazar just isn't useful outside of running. Dwayna still can't run Radiant because to actually justify using that Avatar you need to be using skills fairly regularly. Meaning you'll be dropping energy too low to be using Radiant. Lyssa gives you the option of casting several higher cost enchantments that you'd never be able to handle otherwise. Or you can just completely waste the extra 20 energy you just gained by maintaining it at a certain level just so you can this attack skill once in a while!

Bassu · Sep 14, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Everything you say is correct.... on paper.
But play this build in-game actually. And saying that you need to have a Lyssa avatar for maximum damage for radiant is not true IMO. Are you aware of the fact that most people don't run with 16 in Scythe Mastery? because everything in your calculations looks so cool ONLY because you're counting it as if this were 16SM.
But in most of the builds you use 15/9/12 or 14/13/9, very RARELY you'll go for 16 in SM. You need to hit certain breakpoints in Mysticism and also in Earth Prayers (mainly for Mystic Regeneration, additionally Vital Boon).
And don't forget that Lyssa's Assault is a 10E attak, which gives you less options for your defense/attack boost setup.
And attack such as Zealous Sweep makes builds with Melandru more PvE friendly.
And assuming that I'm choosing Zealous over Lyssa's only because it's a new skill is stupid - I'm an experienced Dervish player, trust me, I know what I need in my builds.

And honestly, this debate is going nowhere. GW is a situational game and everything depends on your playstyle. I like the new skills (well, Aura Slicer is crap actually) and no calculations are goin to change that opinion. those new attacks fit in my build perfectly and synergise with the rest of my bar, so I'm happy as it is now. However, I understand that you may have your own opinion, that's why I'm not going to start argueing at this point. Peace!

~ Dan ~ · Sep 14, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Trouble is, Evilsod is perfectly happy to flame this build and the dervish eotn skills, because he believes his opinions are fact.

boarderx · Sep 14, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

lol, this is getting way off topic, he was simply putting the new skills to good use not saying it is the best derv build out there.

derv tanking and derv dmg dealing are 2 completely different play styles dont argue about one thing when it could be played another way. And dont throw back at me "dervs arent meant to tank", they can if your group is tankless it makes a great tank (better then warriors in some areas). I prefer to tank with my derv simply cuz ive tanked a lot and can group up the mobs good. But if my group has a tank that knows what to do then a a dmg dealing derv is ALWAYS more fun. I run whatever would work best for my group and the area (im speaking about PVE areas PVP is completely different).

I do prefer Lyssa's Assault over the other energy returning skills too btw. Radiant is great with Av of Lyssa.

I dont see why you are bashing everything evilsod, if something works for somebody then great let them play it, there is surely more classy ways to go about stating your opinion. You know your stuff but you are coming off as an ass about it, you dropped a notch in my book stop being so brash. Bassu is correct, not everyone runs 16 in scythe cuz we try to hit break points in other atts. Different situations in the environment call for different things, it also depends on what your group has too.

Back on Topic: getting the most out of Radiant is very easy with Lyssa plus she gives a nice dmg bonus with good timing making that scythe attack close to +90dmg. Perhaps, if Dwayna is your Avatar of choice then try skills that dont require high energy. Of course, if you can get the build to work then that is awesome and feel free to use it that way.

Evilsod · Sep 14, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassu

Everything you say is correct.... on paper.
But play this build in-game actually. And saying that you need to have a Lyssa avatar for maximum damage for radiant is not true IMO. Are you aware of the fact that most people don't run with 16 in Scythe Mastery? because everything in your calculations looks so cool ONLY because you're counting it as if this were 16SM.
But in most of the builds you use 15/9/12 or 14/13/9, very RARELY you'll go for 16 in SM. You need to hit certain breakpoints in Mysticism and also in Earth Prayers (mainly for Mystic Regeneration, additionally Vital Boon).

I suppose that is true about the general stat set up. If your running 15 Scythe then you gain 2e from Lyssa's. But that doesn't change the fact its a consistant 2 energy. Zealous Sweep either gains you 4, 1 or you lose 2. So you either gain 2 more, gain 3 less, or gain 6 less. The potential to gain 3 more just isn't good enough to make this skill even remotely worth using. If its energy gain scaled to be maybe 4 energy per target at 14 Scythe, then it might be worthwhile as your not relying solely on hitting 3 things to make the skill worth using.

On paper this skill sucks as an energy management. In game this skill sucks as 1 also. Unless your tanking entire mobs on a corner, which is pretty much the only place this skill will excel, its useless. Not to mention if 1 of those foes you were aiming at blocks this...

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And don't forget that Lyssa's Assault is a 10E attack, which gives you less options for your defense/attack boost setup.

I don't get you. Fair enough it costs more energy to begin with which could be a problem if for some reason you were getting hit by heavy E-denial, but i don't see how it effects your defence set up. Not like that happens often in PvE.

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Trouble is, Evilsod is perfectly happy to flame this build and the dervish eotn skills, because he believes his opinions are fact.

Least my opinions are well argued. And on the subject of whether or not Zealous Sweep is a good skill, i have numbers to prove my point.

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no calculations are goin to change that opinion.

The clincher... thats about as ignorant as you can get. Thats like saying "Sundering on Swords is awesome!" "Er... well actually if you look at the numbers its really, really bad" "Your wrong, i think its awesome, even though you've just offered proof its not, i'm going to defend it"

Bassu · Sep 14, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Zomg, me ignorant?
Doh, your points well argued?
Doh, doh, doh.

EOT for me, it's pointless.

WarKaster · Sep 14, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

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GW is a situational game and everything depends on your playstyle. I like the new skills (well, Aura Slicer is crap actually) and no calculations are goin to change that opinion. those new attacks fit in my build perfectly and synergise with the rest of my bar, so I'm happy as it is now. However, I understand that you may have your own opinion, that's why I'm not going to start argueing at this point. Peace!"

That was Bassu's full statement. The build works for him and he respects that your opinion is different from his, and your are entitled to it just like he is entitled to disagree with yours. But there is no need to call people ignorant for stating their opinion. Because that really is, well just ignorant.

But in this case Bassu is right people play what ever build they like or have the most fun with and you telling them it sucks will not change their minds....thats a fact. Its OK for people to break away from the norm, really trust me it is.

You saying its inefficient might be true. But all people like the same thing..its the reason that ice cream comes in different flavors, which is the same reason they have different skills. To cater to the play style each person wants to achieve.

People mess around with builds for fun to mix things up to try and break the monotony of the 4 enchant 3 attack skills + Rez builds. There are new skills available for us to use, why not try to take advantage of them in some form or another.

Now back on topic...I'm hold off commenting on this build because I have not tried the skills, which I plan to do tonight after I pick up a copy of GW:EN. I just hope the GF won't want to do go out tonight.

Evilsod · Sep 14, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

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Originally Posted by WarKaster

That was Bassu's full statement. The build works for him and he respects that your opinion is different from his, and your are entitled to it just like he is entitled to disagree with yours. But there is no need to call people ignorant for stating their opinion. Because that really is, well just ignorant.

No, he's ignorant because he blantantly said that no matter what i say on the matter he's going to defend Zealous Sweep to the end of the world just because he thinks its better. No matter how much evidence is given to the contrary. You can use a Sundering Sword and praise it all you like, that doesn't make it better than Vampiric Sword. If you want to use it fine, but if your using it then defending its brilliance regardless, then your just been a tool. You can defend Radiant Scythe all you like, i find it to be a bit dodgy and gave my reasons. Zealous Sweep is clearly far worse than Lyssa's Assault for energy return purposes. Not a single person so far has actually given evidence to the contrary.

boarderx · Sep 14, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

just close this damn thread already plz

Coloneh · Sep 15, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

evilsod. i dont mean to repeat myself, but: learn to ball your foes. you dont need a corner or anything. you just need to aggro and move back to line of the spell casters at range, and the melee at melee range on your frontline. you are assuming you only hit 1 foe alot of the time in PvE. but if you play the game like me you will only be hitting one foe about 1/3 of the time. try balling up your foes, use AoE to your advantage. your advantage over AI is having a brain, use tactics.

Evilsod · Sep 15, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Ah yes because things in end-game PvE or the harder Dungeons will hold back until they've grouped around you, that way your hench don't need to come in and heal/prot you before you get your head caved in... pretty sure that tactic won't work in Hard mode either regarding open spaces.