Curse

glountz · Oct 04, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

I'm seriously wondering if Sins are not as good scythe wearer as dervishes.
I have compared this two builds:

D/X

DPS of 53.
A/D

DPS of 62.

The two build shares the same attack skills, excepted that the dervish have Zealous sweep and the sin Malicious strike and Victorious sweep.
The other skills are the critical strike skills Way if the master and Critical eye
for the sin, and Heart of Fury, Zealous renewal and Furious haste for the dervish.

Zealous scythe of Enchantment for both.

Energy armor for the dervish, no insignas for the sin. Minor runes only. (14 Scythe, 13 Myst and 14 Crit, 12 scythe). There were health runes on dervish armor I didn't bother to remove.
These skills are both DPS enhancer (by raising critical chances for the sin, by putting an IAS for the Dervish) and energy management (by ending for the dervish, by crit on the sin).
When I first began to do these builds, I used only HEart of Fury on the dervish, but it appeared that its DPS was really inferior to the sin one as it couldn't spam his attack skills. I needed to put energy armor + Zealous Renewal + ZEalous sweep to be able to spam attacks. I also used Furious haste to further increase IAS length (cause Heart of fury cannot be maintained on recharge), as well as end prematurely zealous renewal to gain energy faster.

You have seen the results. The dervish never came near the damage the sin could unleash.

I used voluntarily only PvP available skills. If I had threw in Critical agility and Aura of holy might for the sin (as well as Eternal Aura and AoHM for the dervish), the sin would have got even higher DPS.

I'm all for a Scythe Dervish build that has very higher DPS than this.

The big advantage for the sin is that he never runs out of energy, allowing a constant spam of his skills. He didn't either have to use both critical eye and way of the master active, that increases DPS but one is enough for energy management.
You have the elite forms for the dervish, but you could also threw in devastating teleports for the sin.

So my question is, is the Scythe sin viable for PvP?

Laenavesse · Oct 04, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

i've seen it happen.

I've been brutally mauled by it.

so i think it's quite possible if they have the right build and know what they are doing and DON'T use an avatar. I don't think the avatar helped this one sin much...

I just question t he survivability. I guess if you sacrificed some of the damage for the enchants *shrugs* but it's been like, ages since i played a derv and i never liked them. I can only tell you what i've experienced and it huuuuurt xD

Zodiak · Oct 04, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

You could always bring Eternal_Aura and pre-cast it before attacking, when it ends it will recharge all dervish skills in your bar making spamming easier.

Or use
[skill]Zealous Sweep[/skill]
Zealous Sweep for energy

[skill]radiant scythe[/skill]
Radiant scythe for spikes

[skill]farmer's scythe[/skill]
Farmer's Scythe for spam attacks

Or maybe just Avatar of Lyssa

glountz · Oct 04, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

No PVE skill so the comparison is easier.
Using Zealous skills only for the dervish is problematic, while you get energy you don't cripple, deep wound, or damage. Eremitic attack and such is also needed for spikes.
I really think seriously that sins are better damage wise. Not at all the utility that can be brought by forms (like melandru's), but for DPS, sure.

Cathode_Reborn · Oct 04, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

For serious pvp, scythe sins won't replace Dervs cause they don't have access to avatar of mel and a scythe sin relies more on enchantments than a derv does. If avatar of melandru did get nerfed badly though, I imagine that'd be the end to dervs in any serious pvp.

For pve and low end pvp, it shows how poorly designed dervs are - the fact that a scythe sin does more damage and has better e-management seems like a joke. If you throw in pve skills then their damage would go way higher.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Oct 04, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

The only problem with your argument is that the build use crit striking which with a sythe can do much more energy return and much more dmg with the critical strikes at almost every hit. Dervish have to use their enchants to recover energy and they are more designed mop up dmg than sins as well.

moko · Oct 05, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

you should consider that this is a teamgame and dervs often get supplied with lots of enchants that supports their energy.

but on the master of damage, solo, i think the results are pretty fun.

also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~

Sir Pandra Pierva · Oct 05, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

you should consider that this is a teamgame and dervs often get supplied with lots of enchants that supports their energy.

but on the master of damage, solo, i think the results are pretty fun.

also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~

True. Yet I do both A/D and D/X and even with enchant heaven I still have less energy problems with my sin verison than with the dervish.

Moloch Vein · Oct 05, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

For pve and low end pvp, it shows how poorly designed dervs are

Actually it just shows how badly imbalanced sins have become.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Oct 05, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Sins aren't actually unbalanced. They just have started really be able to other weapons pretty effectivly

glountz · Oct 05, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~

Well you could bring only Critical eye for what I saw (as I sometimes during my tests forgot to recast WoTM). Your DPS is hampered cause you crit less, but you still have a very hard time running out of energy. I'll try it to see if that matters that much.

zwei2stein · Oct 05, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

This comparsion is not really that good.

You sin has 6 attack skills and 2 skills which directly support them, since critical strikes can output enough energy to spam those skills on recharge, you are guaranteed higher DPS.

That DPS goes down, when you add res sig and even further doewn when you add hypothetical shadowstep and at least some utility.

Bottom line is, there is difference between build where you go all offence and actual viable build.

Besides, if you really want to test DPS, i strongly suggest using "best build avaiable". A/D is one trick pony, see how D/E with conjure performs, becuase primary devish has this awesome advantage: free secondary. Its silly not using that in comparsion.

the Puppeteer · Oct 05, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

hmm - if the sin had some IAS in that build the results would be even more drastic :P

glountz · Oct 05, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Okay zwei2stein,
I did some additionnal tests taking into account your suggestions.
Here we go:

and

As you see, only 4 attack skills for both.
Both have Reaper's Sweep and Crippling Sweep. The Sin has malicious strike and Eremitic attack. The Dervish has Zealous sweep (e-management+nice damage) and Mystic sweep (Eremite's equivalent but more powerful on the derv as he has more enchants).
Sin take Critical eye and WoTM for damage, Dervish take Heart of Fury and Conjure frost.
Dervish has speed boost, Sin teleports, both have rez.
Dervish Attributes: 10+1+1 Scythe 11+1 Mysticism 10 Water.
Sin attributes: 12+1+1 Critical strikes 12+1 Scythe.

Sin wins again.

Issue for the dervish is the e-management which is a bit harsh, but not that much (I can't spam all attack skills on recharge, but I didn't need for some like crippling sweep, I only used it once Crippling were gone away-on the same board). But I think that even with RoF spam on the dervish to forget about energy, he wouldn't beat Sin DPS. Come close yes, but wouldn't beat. The 80+ crits of the sin strikes makes him seriously a way more hard-hitter.

EDIT: as you see the MAster stopped after 178 seconds, because I recasted Conjure and Heart in the same row, so he thought that was finished. That doesn't change anything on the results, still.

SotiCoto · Oct 05, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Slight deviation from the topic at hand perhaps..... but has anyone tested similarly with Hammer Sin versus Hammer Warrior?

[ And deviating even more from the topic.... if anyone notices a pink Sin with the Banana Scythe running around, it is probably me playing about with Illusionary Weaponry and Drunken Master... for a laugh, of course. Those two skills were just MADE to go together though... and Feigned Neutrality / Shadow Sanctuary go nicely with them too. ]

zwei2stein · Oct 06, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

This test actually made me go out and figure out way how to aproach that sin damage. All it took is is fix energy management:

As you see, it is DPS completelly rivaling sin one.

Since i myself added some rules (stupid me ...) i have to also abide by them.

Here it is, modified to exclude two skills to make place for res and utility:

Which is quite astonishing DPS given other stuff from this thread.

glountz · Oct 09, 2007, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Wow!
I might reconsider Zealous Vow ^^.
But yes, the big part about the sin is the in-built e-management+damage enhancer.
If you are able to e-manage the dervish so he can spam its attacks yes its DPS is superior.

PS : using flail is cheating! :P