Curse

Targren · Sep 01, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Currently, can't finish Mayhem in the Market. Dunno if I just suck, or if I should wait until I can find that rare good PUG, but I'm having no luck running with Henchies...

Anyway, not asking for help on that specific mission as much as general advice. I've got some decent skills so far, nothing great. Here's what I'm running now.

Dagger Mastery - 12
Deadly Arts - 3
Crit Strikes - 12 + 1

(Sorry, don't know how to use the skill popups...)
Golden Fox Strike
Wild Strike
Repeating Strike
Twisting Fangs
Death Blossom
Critical Defenses
Critical Eye
Flurry

I picked up flurry after I spent my last 3k on a zealous tang... I thought the two would go well together...

Death By Ketchup · Sep 01, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

For starters you dont need 5 attack skills. 3-4 is fine. If you have Nf go there and get critical agility and replace flurry with it. you should also have some sort of self heal.
Jaged strike,wild strike and death blossoms should be fine for attack skills.For a elite Moebius strike would probably be best.

Targren · Sep 01, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death By Ketchup

For starters you dont need 5 attack skills. 3-4 is fine. If you have Nf go there and get critical agility and replace flurry with it. you should also have some sort of self heal.
Jaged strike,wild strike and death blossoms should be fine for attack skills.For a elite Moebius strike would probably be best.

Heh. I can't get to a point where I can cap any skills yet... still working on that.

I'm looking more for hints on the mistakes assassins should avoid, like does my build expect me to remain in melee for too long, the hit and fade tactics have such and such a flaw, etc...

Nemo the Capitalist · Sep 01, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

DO u have max armor that can make a difference

Sin max armor 70 AI

ur shing jea grunt outfit .....not so good

Targren · Sep 02, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo the Capitalist

DO u have max armor that can make a difference

Sin max armor 70 AI

ur shing jea grunt outfit .....not so good

No, I can't afford it yet. I've got 55 armor.

moriz · Sep 02, 2007, 06:57 AM // 06:57

there's your problem. until you get better armor, you'll get ripped to shreds no matter what you do. AI will always prioritize low armor targets, and your armor will make AI go after you more than casters.

Targren · Sep 02, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

there's your problem. until you get better armor, you'll get ripped to shreds no matter what you do. AI will always prioritize low armor targets, and your armor will make AI go after you more than casters.

Nah, I don't have too much of a problem with aggro as much as with henchies being unable to handle mobs of 10 afflicted at once.

I've gotten real good at kiting. I finished the quest today with a pug, and the first Kaineng mission, too. It was a good day (though my drops sucked).

'sides, my number crunching tells me that my 5k armor is going to cost me 15k after mats, so I don't have much of a choice.

What I'm more looking for is the mistakes assassins make that make them underused in groups and whatnot, and how not to make them.

Update: Got my first peice of 70 armor (mask). Switched to DM on it and threw a Maj DM rune on there. When I get my second peice, I'll throw a Minor CS on it, and put +life on the rest. Gonna take a long time though...

AaronSwitchblade · Sep 03, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

[QUOTE=Targren]What I'm more looking for is the mistakes assassins make that make them underused in groups and whatnot, and how not to make them.
[QUOTE]

The wiki has a really good article on this; you should be able to find it easly enough. I read it last night, sadly I can't give the link because my work computer won't let me view the wiki.

However, the first and foremost thing to say is the main mistake that stops 'sins getting in groups isn't actually your mistake, rather the collective mistakes made by all the Assassins that have come before you. The class was tarred by the nature of a large part of the playerbase that bought Factions - basically the "I'm 12 and I've seen Naruto wow cool ninjas" brigade. This left a stigma that the class has struggled to progress from. There are other issues too, but this is one of them.

The most obvious, which you most certainly know by now is not to tank. Beyond that, the wiki will help you out.

Bobby2 · Sep 03, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Well it wasn't long ago when I was at your level.

This is what I believe will get you through as it did me...

- Death Blossom is a must in 99% of PvE builds. So try to build so that you can use it often. Ideally your lead and offhand attacks would also recharge in 2sec, but the fastest offhand available (Wild Strike) is 4sec I think. A bonus is that it gives you a trump against Rangers, who normally use Stances to make a hard target of themselves. Later on, you'll be able to chain 'infinitely' with Moebius Strike.
- A 'Panic Button'. It's true that you should not tank, but sometimes it's hard to escape the clutches of a mob in PvE and they will drag you down by numbers. I run Shadow of Haste - Dash to get in fast, then jump back to safety when things begin to look nasty.
- It would be nice if you have a snare to keep key targets from running away. Sometimes, they have a speed boost too! Leaping Mantis Sting works fine for me but there are lots of other Crippling attacks.
- Do not trust your self-heal too keep you alive! Against good opponents, it will merely buy you a little time to get out - everybody seems to run Shadow Refuge but I've begun to question the wisdom in that as you need to be attacking to get the big boost.

Targren · Sep 03, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Well it wasn't long ago when I was at your level.

This is what I believe will get you through as it did me...

- Death Blossom is a must in 99% of PvE builds. So try to build so that you can use it often. Ideally your lead and offhand attacks would also recharge in 2sec, but the fastest offhand available (Wild Strike) is 4sec I think. A bonus is that it gives you a trump against Rangers, who normally use Stances to make a hard target of themselves. Later on, you'll be able to chain 'infinitely' with Moebius Strike.
- A 'Panic Button'. It's true that you should not tank, but sometimes it's hard to escape the clutches of a mob in PvE and they will drag you down by numbers. I run Shadow of Haste - Dash to get in fast, then jump back to safety when things begin to look nasty.
- It would be nice if you have a snare to keep key targets from running away. Sometimes, they have a speed boost too! Leaping Mantis Sting works fine for me but there are lots of other Crippling attacks.
- Do not trust your self-heal too keep you alive! Against good opponents, it will merely buy you a little time to get out - everybody seems to run Shadow Refuge but I've begun to question the wisdom in that as you need to be attacking to get the big boost.

Thanks, looks like I'm off to a good start then

. My main attack combo is Jagged-Wild-DB, and I've got repeating strike in there for an extra hit if DB is on recharge.

Are snares that important for sins in PvE? I don't PvP (at all), and I've never had a problem with the mark running away. I do have to try that Shadow of Haste/Dash combo out. Flashing Blades runs out of usefulness when you've got 6 baddies on you. 25% of a buttload of damage is still a buttload.

Thanks for the tips.

wilebill · Sep 03, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

One tip from me for when you are out with henchmen, Longbow. You do not need to be an A/R.

Any simple no-attribute required longbow from back on the island is fine. It will change your life!

I always found, especially early on, that starting combat with a longbow was a good idea. Two or three shots, sometimes more. Use the "S" key to back off or run back if necessary; give the melee hench time to take aggro. Enemy casters will usually fire their initial shots at them, and the monks are better at healing other henchmen than they are at healing you.

Once your henchies have aggroed, switch to your daggers.

Interesting thing about henchies. They are very powerful and work very well as a group if the monks are not dumping all their mana to heal you.

Early on in Factions I discovered to my amusement that I could stand at range plinking with the little no-attrib longbow until one or two of the enemy mob went down, then go in and finish them off. Especially when facing groups with ele's, mesmers, and necros ... use the longbow to avoid being their first target!

Congrats on your Assassin.

SotiCoto · Sep 03, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

I always found, especially early on, that starting combat with a longbow was a good idea. Two or three shots, sometimes more. Use the "S" key to back off or run back if necessary; give the melee hench time to take aggro. Enemy casters will usually fire their initial shots at them, and the monks are better at healing other henchmen than they are at healing you.

Once your henchies have aggroed, switch to your daggers.

Or... y'know.... just Ctrl+Shift+Space.
The magical combination to tell the herohench to get their arses into combat.

Longbows / Flatbows are for luring enemies only... IMHO.
While I agree that you always need to have one handy.... it isn't to send the henchies in; rather it is to draw the enemies out.

Oh... and for the record... Assassins CAN tank now.

Critical Agility, Critical Defenses, Way of Perfection.
Against nasty spellcaster groups just go A/D and throw a few points into Earth Prayers for Mystic Regen (possibly sacrificing some attack power, but increasing defense).
Oh... and avoid Ench-removal if you insist on trying that.

Bobby2 · Sep 03, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Are snares that important for sins in PvE?

No they're not

fireflyry · Sep 04, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

To the author remember this at all times:

YOU ARE NOT A TANK

I would recommend reading up on Assassin's Promise and related builds based around this elite.You get it sooner than Moebius Strike and in my opinion can make a better build, earlier in game, that will be more effective and enjoyable to play.

Also don't get caught in the Moebius Strike-->Death Blossom loop builds without learning about damage mitigation and also realize such builds are probably the most boring way to play the game.They also promote a tank type feel to the build which I would not recommend.

Personally I'd steer clear of Moebius Strike-->Death Blossom builds entirely unless your planning on playing EotN any time soon.

They won't teach you how to play well.

Apart from that my only advice would be to pick the right targets.You should ideally concentrate on casters and healers.I'd recommend a shadow step of some type to get in and an escape plan to get out.

Also don't lead your team.It's amazing how many people expect the Sin to take initial aggro in this game but stick to your guns and ignore any and all requests to do so.

It's not your role.

Hang back with the casters till aggro is grabbed by the other more suited professions and then go do your thing.

99% of bad sins do this:

"I'll go in first!!!Now I'll spam Death Blossom!!!!Now I'm dead!!!!"

Don't be that guy and good luck to you.

SotiCoto · Sep 04, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

To the author remember this at all times:

YOU ARE NOT A TANK

Critical Agility. Way of Perfection. Critical Defenses.

Welcome to the 21st Century.
They don't ONLY work with Moebius spam either. Way of the Assassin is a great alternative.
Assassins needn't be made of tissue paper any more, fireflyry.

fireflyry · Sep 04, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Critical Agility. Way of Perfection. Critical Defenses.

Welcome to the 21st Century.
They don't ONLY work with Moebius spam either. Way of the Assassin is a great alternative.
Assassins needn't be made of tissue paper any more, fireflyry.

Thats not really my point but well done for restating the obvious....

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Also don't get caught in the Moebius Strike-->Death Blossom loop builds without learning about damage mitigation

You have taken me out of context in the attempt to make an irrelevant point.Where exactly did I say Sins can't tank?I was clearly referring to the thread author, not making a factual statement.

The author has only mentioned starting a new sin, up to Kaineng.

My point of mentioning not playing as a tank is obviously based on the fact the author asked for advice on common newer sin mistakes and how to avoid them.Trying to play a tank in early Factions PvE, with clearly stated non-max armor is idiotic at best.

Unless you suggest he'd like to die and be abused by PuG's a lot.

Everyone already knows your given skill combo.It's old-hat, common knowledge and has little to do with the thread authors request.By the time he's got the skills, gear and at a point where tanking is viable he'll no doubt already know that.Your post holds no water in the given thread context other than to try and 1-UP yourself on an irrelevant issue.

It seems a bit silly to offer newer players advice, especially builds, assuming they have every skill in the game unlocked when they have clearly mentioned they are new and not yet up to capping elites, let alone not having the armor, runes, daggers, etc for a tanking sin role.I'm assuming he's playing through the campaign hence my thoughts on Assassin's Promise and relevant builds.

He'll get it first, it's a great style/technique of play.

To tell a new Sin "Slot Critical Agility, Way of Perfection and Critical Defenses.Now go tank!!!" seems a lot like bad advice to me and I was neither suggesting or implying Sins can't tank in general (as they certainly can) but this is not a "CAN sins tank?" thread, it's a "I'm new, what are common mistakes made by NEW sins?" thread.

For me number one on the list is:

Sins trying to tank.Period.

I was merely stating such in the given context of a new player asking for tips and common mistakes.Like the thread author did.

Welcome to reading.

haggus71 · Sep 04, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Critical Agility. Way of Perfection. Critical Defenses.

Welcome to the 21st Century.
They don't ONLY work with Moebius spam either. Way of the Assassin is a great alternative.
Assassins needn't be made of tissue paper any more, fireflyry.

enchantment removal. armor ignoring damage. Mobs.

Welcome to Guild Wars. Your monks must hate you.

As said above by fireflyry, yes, in some situations a sin can take damage. There is a big difference between that and tanking. Unless you kill that target quick, chances are good you will get someone else on you that can deal with the mentioned above. No, they aren't made of tissue paper. They cannot, however, have the 126+ max armor that a warrior can have, nor the tanking skills. At least not as early in the game as he is(55 armor?), which is the point of the thread. And from what he's said, he doesn't have NF, so no Critical Agility, anyway.

Maybe if more people gave advice like that, or took it, instead of reading about tanking sin builds here or on the wiki, new sins wouldn't get killed so easy acting as a war and keep garnering so much hate.

In any profession, if you rely on a few skills or a skill set too heavily, you will get burned. Bad. A sin is about agility, in thinking and action. It sounds like you are learning well on your own how to be a sin. Keep it up, and when you do get max armor and a few good elites, playing a sin will be that much more fun.

Chicken Ftw · Sep 04, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

It's been said before, but since some people have said it's possible... don't tank. It doesn't matter if you can do something with the right combo of skills, it doesn't mean you should. This is PvE - easy enough to where almost anything will "work", but that doesn't mean it's effective or smart. Hell, I've run Frenzy without a cancel stance before just because I trust my guildie monks to keep me alive (and for fun), and it worked, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea (nor did they appreciate it much, kekeke). Leave the tanking to a class with higher armor. While on this note, Shadow Form is a bad elite outside of farming.

Had something else to say, but forgot it. Doh. Anyway, sorry for the ramblingness - 3.5 hours of sleep ftl ;-;

Targren · Sep 05, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Thanks for the advice. I've been letting Koss and Talon take the lead and standing back with a longbow, like someone suggested earlier in the thread. Once they've got a solid aggro, I switch back to my and sashimi me some casters. It's been working out pretty good, though I still need more practice on the huge groups of heavy casters(Celestial Essences, anyone?). At least the constant half-successes are keeping my vendor trash coming in (though it's not doing my /deaths count any good. XD)

Oh yeah, I finally got my 70 armor too today (after being so tired I paid 60G each for tanned hide squares... took me 8 more hours to make half of that 5 plat back... I want the name and address of the Anet employee who came up with the Proph "Riverside Province" bonus mission.)

Experienced · Sep 05, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Just trying to help you with a few hints here..

IMO I play sin very well

First of all ( As probaly posted Above ) let the warriors take some aggro E.G Pin henchies ahead of you , then you can rush in with not alot of enemies focusing on you.. Hopefully

Sins are mainly a high powered spike unit , like an Elementalist but as melee.

There is little defense skills for an assassin, Critical defense is "Alright" but annoying to keep recasting after each battle.. maybe invest into a second profession more for better Heal/Defense ^^

Thats about it , Have fun with your Sin and feel free to PM me ingame if you want.