Curse

Orange Milk · Aug 02, 2007, 12:59 PM // 12:59

9 with barrage

12 without barrage

13 when Thumping

thats about it.

@samCobra - the OP has already stated that he is lvl 15 and really has no other good skills atm, no need to flame.

@ Mister O - 14 exp and a Zealous string? wow, learn some e management dude.

@everyone else that runs 14 exp, why? I've NEVER had issues at 9 or 12 and I use a zealous string about 1% of the time

haggus71 · Aug 02, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

yeah...as a lot have said, even at lvl 15, D-shot/S-shot should be on your bar. Though you may want to go for more "interesting" builds, there is a reason those tend not to leave most bars. If I REALLY have to, I'd take off S-shot, but you need the interrupt,especially going for survivor. There will be plenty of opportunity to experiment when you get survivor under your belt. Your goal is to GET there first.

On topic, keep experience high, 10 at the level you are at, maybe wait till you get to 18-20 before you think higher, as you are going for survivor and don't want to risk the dent from a major/sup rune.

Falconer · Aug 03, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Generally what do I run:
I stick to 12-14, with the occasional fall back to 9 for low-energy builds. Why? Most ranger skills are balanced around the rangers ability to spam them, if you can't spam because of energy problems... generally your expertise isn't high enough! In fact, I'd say that my expertise selection is almost always based on what skills are on the bar.

Also remember that the ranger and his skills are balanced around the rangers use of expertise. The ranger only has 3 pips energy regen so the first points of expertise only gain you baseline energy parity w/ the 4 pip energy classes (dervish, assassins, all spellcasters). A ranger w/ ~7 expertise w/o rounding would be looking at approximately 4 pips regen only on expertise keyed skills.

Also double superiors (or superior/major) arne't necessarily bad as a ranger. I actually like drawing aggro onto me as it's aggro that isn't on the monks and ellys also in the backline. And normally I have a skill or three to provide short term tanking/kiting ability in PvE. You'll notice the AI likes to lock onto the guys w/ the least HP (and oftentimes just swapping superior gloves of marks for minor gloves of marks is worthwhile once you've taken a DP hit).

There are really 6 important breakpoints for expertise. Anything not of these should really just be used for spending excess point, and because they'll help get better numbers on expertise skills (EG: longer duration on lightning reflexes, throw dirt, or the like). 15expertise was of note back when Cripshot was 15en, but only for a PvP cripshot (and even then after the cripshot nerfs it fell out of favour).

Remember that in PvE having a high marks is important to your ability to deal damage moreso since the bow lacks for damage innately compared to other weapons. And the normal tension on the rangers bar I find is how to split the lions share of points between them while still leaving enough for other attributes. The same tension exists in PvP, but it's more based on getting critical breakpoints for your burning arrow, cripshot, or minimum bow spec while keeping things such as natural stride acceptable.

Those values are:
4: 5(4) 10(8) 15(13)
Really only good for bars w/ 5 and 10 energy skills and adrenal non-energy skills. Used to show up in thumper bars w/ ferocious strike (ferocious giving back 10 energy for 4 energy cost if it hit). It can still work with other emanagement skills such as prepared shot though.

8: 5(4), 10(7), 15(10)
This is generally 9's poor cousin, used when the bar isn't that energy heavy. Rarely seen or used. Generally secondary emanagement skills like prepared shot or inspiration are still required to function.

9: 5(3), 10(6), 15(10)
This is the typical for most barrage or 5 energy spam intensive bars. 3 is acceptable for a skill you'll spam every ~2s. 6 energy on 10 base skills is acceptable for most purposes provided they're not being spammed.

12: 5(3), 10(5), 15(8), 25(13)
AKA half round up. This is pretty much the minimum where I'd consider energy intensive skills such as concussion shot, or dust trap. Easily met w/ 10+1+1 or 11+1.

13: 5(2), 10(5), 15(7), 25(12)
AKA half round down. Very easy to reach if you use a 11+1+1 distro as well. Very nice spread as your 5 energys are almost free at 2 energy, the rest are quite reasonable as well. The only skills which don't benefit are your 10 energy skills. You're also getting to the point where your attribute points will be strained for 3 or 4 attribute spreads.

14: 5(2), 10(4), 15(7), 25(11)
Really only helps 10 and 25 energy skills. Since there are a lot of good 10 energy attacks now w/ the expansions this is a good point to meet. Generally though I find it's hard to get here w/o going to double superiors (which are perfectly acceptable under PvE conditions). If the expertise is this high all emanagement is based on the expertise spec and not on skills like prepared shot.

The following would be good material for a thread of it's own. What's the min expertise/marks or expertise/wild you'd consider for running various skills.
EG:
Burning arrow, I really only run it at 12-14 expertise. 9 is too low to spam it and other attacks effectively, and since it locks your elite you lack for other emanagement. Generally burning arrow isn't worthwhile in PvE if SF ellys are in the group (the burning overlaps don't help much).
Since you're going for single target damage w/this skill, 14marks is almost mandatory for the full 5s burn as well as enhancing your other damage skills. 12 at a bare minimum.

Barrage: 9 or 13exp depending on point distros and other skills. 3 energy per barrage w/o zealous is tolerable but leaves little energy for other skills.
Again, barrage is a damage skill your marks should be up around 14 or 15 ideally, 12 at a bare minimum.

Prepared Shot: Generally 9exp w/ 13-16 marks. Used to offload high exp requirements while freeing up points to max marks. Or to provide energy for non-expertise skills. Pairs well w/ concussion shot, or w/ 10 energy spells/hexes which would not benefit from expertise.

Melandrus Shot: IMO too conditional, garbage skill... it's too uncommon to find targets which are always enchanted. Emanagement needs to be reliable as the build revolves around it. And if I have targets which are reliably enchanted I'd rather use melandru's arrows to REALLY punish them.

Cripshot: 9-10 marks min (especially w/ a crippling string), 14 expertise min. Why, to compete w/ condition removal you need to be able to spam this. And a 9s duration w/ a crippling string is perfectly acceptable.

Needling Shot: 13 or higher exp... if you're to the point where you're spamming needling shot you'll suck yourself dry in no time flat if you're not down to 2 energy or less per shot. Marks isn't as important if used as a spam 'interupt' companion skill for dazed. If used for damage you want 12+ marks... but remember a lot of the skills damage will come from your choice of prep/fav winds.

Whirling Def/Lightning Reflexes: generaly only used at 12+ expertise.

Savage Shot: only used at 12+ expertise due to it's raw energy burden, marks is irrelevant as I run it for a hard interupt not for it's +dam.
Dshot: used at any expertise/marks level

Debil Shot: 14exp/14+marks. 4 energy to drain 9 energy off your target if you hit. Problem is this is really a PvP skill... the attribute spreads for it make it almost impossible to run in PvP. PvP you'll get a lot of problems w/ 50% block/evades and blinds... so the energy outlay is hard to justify w/o commensurate rewards over time. Similarly, you need to drain at a bare minimum 33% more energy than it costs you for this to be an effective use of your time (since other classes have 33% more energy regen, or run on adrenaline).

Concussion shot: generally used w/ 12-14 expertise... 10 marks or better. The long dazed duration is nice since this can be tricky to land w/ lag at times. Again pair w/ needling shot which also needs the expertise.

BHA: generally 13 expertise since I pair this skill w/ needling shot. 10 marks or better. (you want the duration greater or equal to recharge).

Epinephrine · Aug 03, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Needling Shot: 13 or higher exp... if you're to the point where you're spamming needling shot you'll suck yourself dry in no time flat if you're not down to 2 energy or less per shot. Marks isn't as important if used as a spam 'interupt' companion skill for dazed. If used for damage you want 12+ marks... but remember a lot of the skills damage will come from your choice of prep/fav winds.

I don't get why you say 12+ marksmanship. The damage from NS is armour ignoring, and though more marksmanship increases damage, it's not by much (and the % reductions to bow damage based on not having 12 mastery aren't a problem, since it only affects the base damage, not the needling shot damage).

Dropping Marks to 11 would cost you 1 damage per shot, so if you can gain more than one damage from your preps with the attribute points it would be worth considering. Even dropping to 9 Marksmanship only reduces it by 4 per shot, but could easily free enough points to bump your damage more than that. I agree that your other attacks might suffer, but if you derive most of your damage from preps/enchants (especially in HM PvE, where the base damage is reduced by AL) it might make sense to drop your Marks in favour of more boosts to damage.

anshin · Aug 03, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I disagree by the fact that you're running two superior runes, thereby lowering your health to probably 450 or less, and the fact there is no dshot, which is arguably the best ranger skill if not one of the best skills in the game. And yeah, take rebirth too. A rez is nice...

i partly agree with you... i love dshot... but it takes too much time to recharge... i do bring it sometimes...

the health part... i usually am the last one standing when there is a wipe out so i have no complains there... and i do sometimes take rebirth (when in HM)

blue.rellik · Aug 07, 2007, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

I generally find that 9+1 exp is enough on almost any bar. Also, lose the +damage attacks, you should be taking interrupts instead. And Burning Arrow + Apply > Poison + Barbed.

On a single target yes. Poison + Barbed is much better at spreading degen

jrk247 · Aug 07, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

I usually have it at 9-10. Anything lower is a waste of attribute points IMO.

ValaOfTheFens · Aug 07, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I usually have it at no less than 9. Sometimes I have to take points out to put in more Wilderness Survival but rarely.

my new and improved build:
[skill]Apply Poison[/skill][skill]Burning Arrow[/skill][skill]Ignite Arrows[/skill][skill]Savage Shot[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill] and then one optional and a rez. I love going R/Mo so I can have [skill]Mending Touch[/skill]. Its good for when you have to run and there are alot of traps or ranger foes. Plus I can touch myself and no one will look at me funny.

Fallen Nephilim · Aug 18, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

9 in PvE.
no less than 14 in PvP.

MBP · Aug 18, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

the higher the better

12-14 for me...more room for spamming attacks...don't have to bother with energy management.

lordpwn · Aug 19, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Either 6+2, 7+2 or 11+2 depending on the build.

You can use a bow attack skill about once every two seconds - with 13 points 5e attacks cost 2e, which is exactly the amount you regen in that time, leaving plenty of energy for interrupting that annoying caster back there.

drupal · Aug 20, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

9 or above, always.

SotiCoto · Aug 20, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Splinter Barrager with a Zealous Flatbow.

I recall it being around 9 .... I need as many attribute points for Channelling as possible, while still keeping energy levels reasonable.

Falconer · Aug 21, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I don't get why you say 12+ marksmanship. The damage from NS is armour ignoring, and though more marksmanship increases damage, it's not by much (and the % reductions to bow damage based on not having 12 mastery aren't a problem, since it only affects the base damage, not the needling shot damage).
*snip*

Explanation: 11 marks is roughly 92% normal damage, 12 marks is 100% normal. 13 only gains you about +2%. Hence why generally, for most purposes, 12 marks no more/noless tends to be an ideal investment grade in most builds where you're expecting your bow to be a primary damage source.

The problem w/ the last half of your post is needling shot isn't the only attack on your bar. And you need to get targets to 50% to punch a ticket on the needle express in the first place.

So while you are quite correct in stating it only costs you 1 damage on needling shot... it's generally worth that last point to give your other bow attacks full power... ranks past 12 though generally aren't nearly as worthwhile unless you are really damage obsessed (generally I'm not). The question at the margin you need to ask.. is that little bit of attribute spread worth losing ~10% off your basic bow damage.

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 28, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

I'm damage obsessed. Speed+Power+Prep of Choice. I never run Expertise under 9(8+1), yet, nowadays it stays at 12 or so. Prepared Shot plus high Expertise= No Energy problems.Period. Concussion, savage,apply poison, Never Rampage Alone or whatever I chose to use means little with this elite and 12 Expertise(11+1).

I enjoy hurting people and monsters equally.

Prepared Shot+Sloth Hunter Shot+Savage Shot= dead people

Lord Feathers · Sep 02, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I usually run around 9 it's a good cut off point for the energy 10 skills if your using a rune to bump that up to 10. I would say it's all dependant on the build but for me 9 usually works for everything I've ever needed and most the time I run around with just 30 energy.

I can see this going much higher on a trapper build but then again it's all pretty much build dependant.

Komes I · Sep 04, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I used to run 13 ussualy but the thing is that i just fell in love with Prepared Shot so i run expertise on about 9. Sometimes i put it to 12 but for some reason i find it that 9 and 13 are my cassual. But it rly depends on skillbar and in some builds i run it like 3 or something low like that...

Seef II · Sep 04, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

13 normally, I'll drop it to 11 when running prep shot.

Camaxtli · Sep 10, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

16 expertise always
I run a glass arrows spiker
[skill]triple shot[/skill][skill]sloth hunter's shot[/skill][skill]Needling shot[/skill][skill]distracting shot[/skill][skill]savage shot[/skill][skill]glass arrows[/skill][skill]lightning reflexes[/skill]and a res

zling · Sep 15, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

I generally find that 9+1 exp is enough on almost any bar. Also, lose the +damage attacks, you should be taking interrupts instead. And Burning Arrow + Apply > Poison + Barbed.

1 thing BA lovers, including myself, forget is that Poison Arrow is 5/1 while BA is 10/5 and also that apply poison costs 15 while barbed arrows only 5
yes it's only -6 degen instead of -10(with an optional bleeding from hunter's shot or screaming if you want) but the -6 degen is constant while the -10 goes on and off, if you add bleeding to BA you can get constant -6 and conditional -10 but it's way more expensive.

in my opinion BA is superior when you face a few enemies while PA is superior in large mobs.
thus PA is more fit towards general PvE while BA is fit more towards PvP

as for expertise, it depends on your build. a good ranger build should either focus on 10 energy skills or 5 energy skills, not mix them too much. and thus the average skill cost determines the expertise lvl.