Curse

Amy Awien · Jun 14, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by phool

ad hominem? You're getting desperate. You didn't even make an attempt to reply to his/her or my points. Nice hypocrisy btw.

Perhaps you should look up the meaning of expressions before you actually use them. I wasn't using my observations about him to counter his arguments, but rather to point out how useless it would be to try and do so. Basically, I was trying to ignore him and get back to the topic at hand. To bad you go off topic again.

Don't call me hypocrite when I am not, and if I am desperate, it is because of your show of ignorance regarding the use and application of Ranger skills, your failure to use your mental abilities and imagination to find realistic uses. There is no reply or counter argument needed because your argument was based on a misunderstanding of the skill and it's application. Your post was useless, pointless and off-topic and in no way did it warrant the trouble of a reply. I followed the most appropriate line of action and ignored it.

I am not willing to argue in depth and detail about the merits and disadvantages of Archer's Signet or it's alternatives, since that is of topic in this thread. For me and at this moment, it is sufficient to see that there are applications that can put it to use. That is what these threads are about, why they are so interesting; to see new and imaginative ways of using skills, they inspire my own imagination.

Foolishness is in the way you are arguing about how this skill sucks in the context of this thread. Basically someone says they have had good results with it but for some reason you and evilsod try to maintain that this is impossible. You've already made up your mind that this or that skills sucks, you've already made up your mind about everything and then some more - and that is fine, but what is really disappointing about you and evilsod is how you grab every opportunity to vent your negative and unimaginative opinions and label everything you don't like, or fail to see how it could be applied, as 'it sucks'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I have a screenshot of me in Thunderhead Keep with only henchmen (pre-heroes, no flags to control them) smacking it down with NO SKILLS on my bar.

Oh, this is brilliantly ... foolish. Following that reasoning every skill and every build sucks and nothing you do matters in any way.

You disappoint me. Your experiments and number crunching are better then your logic and reasoning in this case.

Nekretaal · Jun 14, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Rangers are great in Hard mode.

Pets dont get dp, so beastmaster is even a good choice. The beastmaster "Longbow henchman" on the luxon side with his pet crab Hector is highlarious and an effiecient henchman. The most threateneing enemies all do elemental damage and rangers have the best armor.

Really any build is fine for ranger: barrage/thumpr/broad head arrow. I have legendary guardian and vanquisher of elona/cantha/most of tyria, and rangers were always in my group.

Epinephrine · Jun 14, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Oh, this is brilliantly ... foolish. Following that reasoning every skill and every build sucks and nothing you do matters in any way.

You disappoint me. Your experiments and number crunching are better then your logic and reasoning in this case.

Listen up - my logic is just fine, perhaps you missed the point. My point is this: Citing a case in which a particular build works or that you succeeded with it does not make it a good build, as any build can be played carefully pretty much and succeed. Hence my example - playing with no skills is pretty much a dominated strategy, since ANY build can perform at least this well - yet I succeeded in what many called a very hard mission. My statement was not that thus any build sucks, but that merely citing an accomplishment with a build does not make it a good build.

The measure of a build is not whether it can accomplish something, but whether other options are better. In the case of Archer's Signet the only use is to use Concussion shot frequently, and this is not a particularly good setup, and so many other combinations will outperform that.

XvArchonvX · Jun 14, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Perhaps you should look up the meaning of expressions before you actually use them.

I believe the use was correct. Your statement basically declared Evilsod to be stubborn (not saying that he isn't

) instead of presenting a counter example. If you feel that you had already presented a counter example, then it wasn't necessary to start making judgements about Evilsod's personality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Don't call me hypocrite when I am not, and if I am desperate, it is because of your show of ignorance regarding the use and application of Ranger skills, your failure to use your mental abilities and imagination to find realistic uses. There is no reply or counter argument needed because your argument was based on a misunderstanding of the skill and it's application. Your post was useless, pointless and off-topic and in no way did it warrant the trouble of a reply. I followed the most appropriate line of action and ignored it.

There are some pretty harsh words here, dare I say flame bait. Basically you called Evilsod stubborn because you said he would never change his opinion, while you yourself refuse to change yours. While you didn't specifically claim to not be stubborn, the implication leads towards hypocrisy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I am not willing to argue in depth and detail about the merits and disadvantages of Archer's Signet or it's alternatives, since that is of topic in this thread. For me and at this moment, it is sufficient to see that there are applications that can put it to use. That is what these threads are about, why they are so interesting; to see new and imaginative ways of using skills, they inspire my own imagination.

Using your imagination and creativity is all well and good, but a bad skill is just a bad skill. You can take a half rotted bile covered dead frog and dress it up in anything you want, but it's still a half rotted bile covered dead frog. For example, take [skill]Power Shot[/skill]. You can argue all day that you can find a working build that can make use of the skill and you would be right, but no matter what, the build would simply be weaker than if you brought a better alternative to Power Shot in the same skill bar.

There simply is no build that anyone has seen here which can prove to be more efficient than other similar well known builds using different elites. If you have some amazing counter example that no one has seen yet, feel free to share, but as it stands, all stated builds (including concussion spam) are weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Foolishness is in the way you are arguing about how this skill sucks in the context of this thread. Basically someone says they have had good results with it but for some reason you and evilsod try to maintain that this is impossible. You've already made up your mind that this or that skills sucks, you've already made up your mind about everything and then some more - and that is fine, but what is really disappointing about you and evilsod is how you grab every opportunity to vent your negative and unimaginative opinions and label everything you don't like, or fail to see how it could be applied, as 'it sucks'.

Oh, this is brilliantly ... foolish. Following that reasoning every skill and every build sucks and nothing you do matters in any way.

You disappoint me. Your experiments and number crunching are better then your logic and reasoning in this case.

Go back and read Epinephrine's post again. He stated that using the completion of a mission does not prove efficiency. This does not say that every build/skill sucks in any way, shape, or form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

The measure of a build is not whether it can accomplish something, but whether other options are better.

Qft. You can saw a tree down with a rusty tin can, but in the end, it's just smarter to use a chain saw.

Until there is some amazing skill buff change, there really is no build that I have ever seen that has convinced me that Archer's Signet is ever worth taking over another elite skill.

phool · Jun 14, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Perhaps you should look up the meaning of expressions before you actually use them. I wasn't using my observations about him to counter his arguments, but rather to point out how useless it would be to try and do so. Basically, I was trying to ignore him and get back to the topic at hand. To bad you go off topic again.

Allow me to explain. Rather than disputing the points Evilsod continued to make, you attacked the poster himself in an attempt to discredit his argument - not the argument itself, to the audience of people reading this thread (who, rather than Evilsod himself, I imagine you're attempting to 'win over'). Like you say yourself; you weren't using your "observations about him to counter his arguments", you were using them to discredit him and by assocation his arguments, attacking his credibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Don't call me hypocrite when I am not, and if I am desperate, it is because of your show of ignorance regarding the use and application of Ranger skills, your failure to use your mental abilities and imagination to find realistic uses.

I personally tested something that had the potential to be a realistic use, you'll find I edited in a comment that the bug I was attempting to exploit (free crippling shot, 50/60 seconds, at 0 expertise sounded worth a mimicry) had been removed. You haven't found a valid use; you have found a viable one. That's pretty much what my post was saying. 'realistic' - well, as has been pointed out, you can complete the game with hench and an empty skill bar, so it doesn't take much to be viable/realistic. Certainly you can exclude an elite from your bar and be a very valuable member of the team. Now valid on the other hand, I've got higher standards for that. Valid must have some advantage over every single alternative. It must be pretty much the best build for a specific purpose or an alternative that isn't noticably worse. Not necessarily the best build period but the best build given a context of, for example, being a ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

There is no reply or counter argument needed because your argument was based on a misunderstanding of the skill and it's application. Your post was useless, pointless and off-topic and in no way did it warrant the trouble of a reply. I followed the most appropriate line of action and ignored it.

My post was about the combination of archer's signet with concussion shot. Whether it was useless... well, personally I take it as a sign of the post's veracity that you ignored it, considering your eloquent responses to other posts and complete inability to discuss without resorting to personal insults (of which you will notice several in the text I've quoted).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I am not willing to argue in depth and detail about the merits and disadvantages of Archer's Signet or it's alternatives, since that is of topic in this thread. For me and at this moment, it is sufficient to see that there are applications that can put it to use. That is what these threads are about, why they are so interesting; to see new and imaginative ways of using skills, they inspire my own imagination.

This thread is entitled viable hard mode builds. Whether a build using archer's signet is a viable hard mode build or not is very much up for discussion. Now, an attempt to discredit another poster, that is far less on topic, yet you've made no less than two posts which do nothing more than this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Foolishness is in the way you are arguing about how this skill sucks in the context of this thread. Basically someone says they have had good results with it but for some reason you and evilsod try to maintain that this is impossible.

I can have "good results" with an empty bar. See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You've already made up your mind that this or that skills sucks, you've already made up your mind about everything and then some more - and that is fine, but what is really disappointing about you and evilsod is how you grab every opportunity to vent your negative and unimaginative opinions and label everything you don't like, or fail to see how it could be applied, as 'it sucks'.

Please quote the part where I've vented about archers signet 'sucking'.

Please use reason, not rhetoric, to convince me archer's signet is viable.

That is all.

lennymon · Jun 14, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Damn I'm now sorry I came to catch up in this trainwreck.
Archer's Sig in *not* the best all around elite, and while it may have uses, as others have posted those uses can be fulfilled with other elites (possibly better). Me saying this doesn't make it so, it just is. A parralel: [wiki]Scribe's Insight[/wiki] It's elite energy management for a monk, within the primary attribute no less but is it better than ZB?

Archere's Signet *may* be viable in domain of secrets (I haven't tested), whereas I know Prepared Shot is. I suspect due to the built in restrictions and recharge time of Archer's Sig it will be the worst E-management elite in almost all conditions except the niche ones (like towers in ROF) but here again, all but one tower I can hit from out of range without even running through its area. If Archer's signet didn't disable non-attack skills or if it had a shorter recharge it would approach usefullness in my opinion. However, it's got both of those *major* limitations. Can it be used? Of course! Is it 'Viable'? I think this is and always will be a subjective/semantically limiting question, my personal answer is yes, but it's probably not the best. Yup, you can bring some mesmer mantra to recharge it faster, and perhaps utilize other signets to make a -more- synergistic build. Mantra of inscriptions: 10e, for ~40% faster recharge with significant points in Inspiration, that's what 27s recharge instead of 45.... Mantra of signets: 15e, AND a 30s recharge... In the end why not just go with read the wind/prepared shot in energy short conditions, both are *cheap* which is good, and together they deal damage plus automagically synergize with *any* marksmanship build? Heck, read the wind even decreases the small likelyhood of missing with prepared shot on a properly selected target, thereby losing your energy gain...for 6 seconds.

Evilsod · Jun 14, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Thats basically what i've been saying, lol. Its a viable skill, but nothing that its been used for is actually decent. Its more of a build that will work for the area because its not too hard.

And since this thread is about HM, there is no way in hell that spamming Concussion Shot is going to work. Enemies may chain skills at really obvious times but that doesn't mean they ALWAYS chain skills making them easy to interrupt. I will always favour Broadhead Arrow + Epidemic to Concussion Shot in Hard Mode... well actually i prefer Smoke Trap, but thats not the point... Concussion Shot realies heavily on the enemies in the area and your knowledge of there skillbars and general behaviour, not just your own ability to interrupt.

I've just finished a NM FoW Forgemaster trip using my standard Prep Shot Interrupt build (i really should've taken Read the Wind instead of Apply, but wtf), there is no way in hell Archers Signet would've been better. Concussion Shot still has a recharge of 5s, Distracting, 10 and Savage, 5. With Prep Shot i was able to spam them quite alot for extended periods of time. Archers... i would've been waiting on the recharge of Concussion, maybe 'wasting' charges on a 2e/4e Distract/Savage Shot. The simple fact is the only reason anyone can give for using Archers Signet is to spam Concussion Shot. The moment you start using anything that isn't Concussion Shot your wasting the elite slot and you might aswell have brought something else.

And the big point... the more you spec it in the less you actually need it! There are only 2 elites that i will maintain are useless almost regardless, and thats because i've tried them. Primal Rage is the other 1 which is an absolutely dreadful elite with no use, ever.

ArKaiN · Jun 14, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Lol this thread has one page about the OP's post and two of random flames

Amy Awien · Jun 15, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by phool

Rather than disputing the points Evilsod continued to make ...

Which was what exactly? Except for his usual 'it sucks' there was nothing noteworthy. He has no real argument at all, it all revolves around coming up with some ridiculous use to 'show' how bad a skill 'sucks':

Quote:

Since when do you have to actually use Concussion Shot once every 5 seconds?...
...Archers Signet lets you spam Concussion Shot, which sadly is completely useless if you use it vs a Healing Signet...

You use the same methods:

Quote:

... to get your optimum energy saving btw you have to use only concussion shot. ...

That focuses on the idea that you may only use Concussion Shot because that will optimize the energy savings. It emphasizes the wrong goal, energy, while your goal originally would be to interrupt spellcasting (or you shouldn't bring daze at all).

In numbers, if you use it for three Concussions you'd be on about the same energy 'gain' as Prepared Shot. Or yo can use it to combine several high cost skills in a short span of time, while regenerating energy.

Quote:

you attacked the poster himself in an attempt to discredit his argument - not the argument itself, to the audience of people reading this thread (who, rather than Evilsod himself, I imagine you're attempting to 'win over').

Actually I wasn't interested in his argument at all, I am more interested in the topic and not in his extremely negative attitude. What happened here is that someone says they've put it to good use and had success with it and Evilsod basically denying it by saying that "There has been no successful build involving Archer's Signet, end of story."

Quote:

Like you say yourself; you weren't using your "observations about him to counter his arguments", you were using them to discredit him and by assocation his arguments, attacking his credibility.

Like I said, my goal was not to counter his argument, but to get on with the topic. There was nothing left to say about Archer's Signet, because (a) the topic is another one and (b) it didn't look like Evilsod would be open for any other view on Archer's Signet. Therfore it seemed pointless to continue the discussion about it.

Archer's Signet may, or may not, have good uses, but either way I'd rather examine those and preferable some other build idea's then having to put up with his pure negativism.

But, I said this before, why do you persist in claiming differently about my motives? Are you psychic?

Quote:

I personally tested something that had the potential to be a realistic use, you'll find I edited in a comment that the bug I was attempting to exploit

Great, you 'tested' a potential exploit and posted about a fairly restricted use of it. It is specifically the restricted use that somewhat reduces the quality of your argument. See above.

Quote:

.... Valid must have some advantage over every single alternative. It must be pretty much the best build for a specific purpose or an alternative that isn't noticably worse. Not necessarily the best build period but the best build given a context of, for example, being a ranger.

The topic is viable builds (for HM, btw, not THK), not best builds, or valid builds (which is pretty constructed anyway), it doesn't have to be the best, and it can never be the best as you'll never be able to prove for any build that there is no better alternative.

Quote:

... well, personally I take it as a sign of the post's veracity that you ignored it, considering your eloquent responses to other posts and complete inability to discuss without resorting to personal insults (of which you will notice several in the text I've quoted).

What insults? Point them out when yo make such a claim. If you think I've been hard on Evilsod, then realize that it is how he posts. His continued extremely negative reactions and skewed arguments are getting very tiresome to deal with.

Your post lacked substance, as I've pointed this out, because your argument against Archer's Signet was based on a flawed usage of the skill. That itself seemed a sign of ignorance.

This thread is entitled viable hard mode builds. Whether a build using archer's signet is a viable hard mode build or not is very much up for discussion. Now, an attempt to discredit another poster, that is far less on topic, yet you've made no less than two posts which do nothing more than this.

Quote:

I can have "good results" with an empty bar.

A pointless argument, as it can be used for any build. It doesn't say anything usefull for or against a build. Success of a build may be a personal experience, but that can be said about any build posted here.

Quote:

Please use reason, not rhetoric, to convince me archer's signet is viable.

There's enough reason posted to give it a whirl, or not if you don't like it, you're free to take it or leave it and I have no incentive to convince you of it's viability. Nor have I tried, I just don't like to see the skewed argumentation and the never-ending negativism of Evilsod.

Amy Awien · Jun 15, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I believe the use was correct. Your statement basically declared Evilsod to be stubborn (not saying that he isn't

) instead of presenting a counter example.

Like I said before, I wasn't arguing about the skill or countering his argument, but about continuing the topic, which wasn't about Archer's Signet. Therefore the use was incorrect. Have i not said so before?

Quote:

There are some pretty harsh words here, dare I say flame bait.

Flame bait? No, maybe not even harsh. I said that I thought he hadn't used his gray cells to their full capacity in his argument (by using the skills in a limited way). And he basically did start by accusing me of hypocrisy, is it not?

Quote:

Basically you called Evilsod stubborn because you said he would never change his opinion, while you yourself refuse to change yours. While you didn't specifically claim to not be stubborn, the implication leads towards hypocrisy.

I am trying to be open minded towards the usefulness of Archer's Signet. How is that being stubborn?

Quote:

Using your imagination and creativity is all well and good, but a bad skill is just a bad skill.

Ah, I see, so it is a bad skill because .... it is a bad skill.

Quote:

You can take a half rotted bile covered dead frog and dress it up in anything you want, but it's still a half rotted bile covered dead frog.

But how does that relate to Archer's Signet more then it does to, say, Burning Arrow or Prepared Shot?

[quote]For example, take Power Shot. You can argue all day that you can find a working build that can make use of the skill and you would be right, but no matter what, the build would simply be weaker than if you brought a better alternative to Power Shot in the same skill bar.

There simply is no build that anyone has seen here which can prove to be more efficient than other similar well known builds using different elites. If you have some amazing counter example that no one has seen yet, feel free to share, but as it stands, all stated builds (including concussion spam) are weak.

Quote:

Go back and read Epinephrine's post again. He stated that using the completion of a mission does not prove efficiency. This does not say that every build/skill sucks in any way, shape, or form.

That's nice, but it doesn't say anything about a skill or build either and essentially it applies to all builds, including our personal favorites. What it basically says is that (claims of) successful use of a build in mission do not prove anything about the effectivity of a build. It could as well be left out then and if I do that, his post basically shrinks to: "Archer's Signet is a lousy skill, but you get 7 others to make up for its crappitutde.".

XvArchonvX · Jun 15, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Which was what exactly? Except for his usual 'it sucks' there was nothing noteworthy. He has no real argument at all, it all revolves around coming up with some ridiculous use to 'show' how bad a skill 'sucks':

How was his evidence ridiculous? He presented his argument and his opinion and you disagree. Why you decided to start talking about him personally instead of just either presenting more evidence or leaving your current evidence to stand for itself and move on, I don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Actually I wasn't interested in his argument at all, I am more interested in the topic and not in his extremely negative attitude. What happened here is that someone says they've put it to good use and had success with it and Evilsod basically denying it by saying that "There has been no successful build involving Archer's Signet, end of story."

So? If you disagree with him and have presented what you feel is legitamate evidence, why carry on and start talking about him personally?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Archer's Signet may, or may not, have good uses, but either way I'd rather examine those and preferable some other build idea's then having to put up with his pure negativism.

Ever just consider that others have already examined it's good uses with others and have already come to their conclusions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The topic is viable builds (for HM, btw, not THK), not best builds, or valid builds (which is pretty constructed anyway), it doesn't have to be the best, and it can never be the best as you'll never be able to prove for any build that there is no better alternative.

Why on earth would you want to suggest others use an inneficient build when there are other better builds out there, especially if they are going to be used in HM? I really don't see anything positive about suggesting a bad build to others that are looking for builds to use in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

What insults? Point them out when yo make such a claim. If you think I've been hard on Evilsod, then realize that it is how he posts. His continued extremely negative reactions and skewed arguments are getting very tiresome to deal with.

Whether you were hard on Evilsod or not is irrelavant. The point is that you started pointing out personal traits of Evilsod in a debate about skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

There's enough reason posted to give it a whirl, or not if you don't like it, you're free to take it or leave it and I have no incentive to convince you of it's viability. Nor have I tried, I just don't like to see the skewed argumentation and the never-ending negativism of Evilsod.

Oh, you're perfectly free to suggest any build you want, just as others are perfectly free to point out any flaws they percieve. When you start turning the debate on the personal traits of a poster, however, the debate goes downhill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Like I said before, I wasn't arguing about the skill or countering his argument, but about continuing the topic, which wasn't about Archer's Signet. Therefore the use was incorrect. Have i not said so before?

Instead of either presenting points or counter points, you started discussing Evilsod's personality in a way to discredit his argument which makes the usage correct. See below quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

C'mon peeps, this topic isn't about Archer's Signet and there's no point in trying to argue with Evilsod, who will never change his opinion anyway, no matter what you say because he simply can not accept different opinions. Even when faced with the plain fact is that someone states they actually put Archer's Signet to use in a build designed for Hard Mode and had success with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Flame bait? No, maybe not even harsh. I said that I thought he hadn't used his gray cells to their full capacity in his argument (by using the skills in a limited way).

Exactly, instead of debating points on the matter or moving on with the conversation, you start insulting his intelligence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

And he basically did start by accusing me of hypocrisy, is it not?

I do remember my pre-school teacher telling me two things that seem to fit well here:
"Two wrongs do not make a right"
I really don't see how the "he started it!" arguement justifies anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I am trying to be open minded towards the usefulness of Archer's Signet. How is that being stubborn?

Evilsod refuses to admit that there is a good use of the skill and you refuse to accept there isn't. He's not changing his opinion to agree with you and you aren't changing your opinion to agree with him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Ah, I see, so it is a bad skill because .... it is a bad skill.

No, it's a bad skill because any build that includes it is less efficient than it could be because of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

But how does that relate to Archer's Signet more then it does to, say, Burning Arrow or Prepared Shot?

Because Burning Arrow and Prepared Shot are not bad skills. Essentially a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Archer's signet is a weak link whereas other elite choices are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That's nice, but it doesn't say anything about a skill or build either and essentially it applies to all builds, including our personal favorites. What it basically says is that (claims of) successful use of a build in mission do not prove anything about the effectivity of a build. It could as well be left out then and if I do that, his post basically shrinks to: "Archer's Signet is a lousy skill, but you get 7 others to make up for its crappitutde.".

I think you are still completely missing the point here. Archer's signet may be better than an empty skill slot, but that doesn't override the fact that there are other skills that could be used instead of Archer's sig which would make the build more efficient.

To make this whole argument very simple, why run Archer's signet when you can run with a better skill?

If you have an example of a build that shows it as being the best choice, reviewing that build would be fine, but this whole tangent on analyzing other people's personalities and intelligence is getting way off track.

ArKaiN · Jun 15, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

What are you guys talking about? Archer's Signet sucks. Period. Maybe it wouldn't if Rangers had elites like, say, Paragons, but we actually get GOOD elites. We don't have to use this kinda crap.
Anyway.
I've been running Splinter Barrager, BHA+Epidemic(screw Arcane Conundrum+AoE) and Echo Trapping with good results in HM.

Amy Awien · Jun 15, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

How was his evidence ridiculous? He presented his argument and his opinion and you disagree.

How many times do I have to say it, he based his argument, his evidence as you call it, on an incorrect, even ludicrous, use of a skill. Try to read my posts or stop responding.

Quote:

Why you decided to start talking about him personally instead of just either presenting more evidence or leaving your current evidence to stand for itself and move on, I don't know.

I was just stating the obvious about him, nothing too personal. I wanted the topic to move on and discussing Archer's Signet with him wouldn't help that. I've said as much before, read or stop responding.

Quote:

So? If you disagree with him and have presented what you feel is legitamate evidence, why carry on and start talking about him personally?

You are repeating yourself. Not only have I responded to the same query in previous posts, but in this post also. And please explain to me how I am talking personally about him in an inappropriate way in the piece you've quoted:

Quote:

Actually I wasn't interested in his argument at all, I am more interested in the topic and not in his extremely negative attitude. What happened here is that someone says they've put it to good use and had success with it and Evilsod basically denying it by saying that "There has been no successful build involving Archer's Signet, end of story."

Evilsod did say that "There has been no successful build involving Archer's Signet, end of story.", and that hardly indicates he was interested in any true discussion. He was displaying an extremely negative attitude, and there is nothing wrong in pointing that out.

Quote:

Ever just consider that others have already examined it's good uses with others and have already come to their conclusions?

I am sure someone has, but nothing in his - or your - posts indicates that he has participated in such an examiniation. His argument was based on a misuse of a skill. He did so on purpose, to

Quote:

Why on earth would you want to suggest others use an inneficient build when there are other better builds out there

Deciding what is a good or efficient build is not a matter of science, but usually more a combination of 'intuition', experience and beliefs, and some reasoning. Someone used it and had success with it. Subsequently claiming that he must have had an odd definition of success is hardly a fair argument.

But he based his 'arguments' on a llimited and inefficient application of skills, only to 'prove' his point. That is not a decent way to discuss.

Quote:

Whether you were hard on Evilsod or not is irrelevant. The point is that you started pointing out personal traits of Evilsod in a debate about skills.

That is only your point and I am in the dark as to what you hope to achieve by repeating it over and over and over again. I've given my response, read it.

Quote:

Oh, you're perfectly free to suggest any build you want, just as others are perfectly free to point out any flaws they percieve. When you start turning the debate on the personal traits of a poster, however, the debate goes downhill.

No, the dabate already goes downhill when someone makes unnecesarily negative posts and crappy arguments. That is when a discussion goes downhill.

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Instead of either presenting points or counter points, you started discussing Evilsod's personality in a way to discredit his argument which makes the usage correct.

No, his argument was not the goal. I've said so before, learn to read or stop responding.

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Exactly, instead of debating points on the matter or moving on with the conversation, you start insulting his intelligence.

I never insulted his intelligence. You are deliberately misreading what I post, over and over again.

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Evilsod refuses to admit that there is a good use of the skill and you refuse to accept there isn't. He's not changing his opinion to agree with you and you aren't changing your opinion to agree with him.

You are twisting reality, again, to prove your 'you're both stubborn' argument. I'd be stubborn because I don't change my opinion to agree with him. According to that reasoning, just about everyone is stubborn. Sorry, but I can't take that seriously.

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No, it's a bad skill because any build that includes it is less efficient than it could be because of it.

Right. This a 'just because' statement.

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Because Burning Arrow and Prepared Shot are not bad skills.

Burning Arrow wouldn't be a good choice in some place and teams, Prepared Shot in others. Few, if any, elite skills are good choices in all situations.

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Essentially a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Archer's signet is a weak link whereas other elite choices are not.

A build is not a chain, one skill may influence the effect of another, links in a chain normally do not don't do that. The analogy is flawed in it's roots and any conclusions you draw from the analogy do not necessarily apply to the original case.

In essence, you still claim 'just because' by simply stating it's 'the weakest link'.

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I think you are still completely missing the point here.

I don't think so, Epiniphrine stated: "My point is this: Citing a case in which a particular build works or that you succeeded with it does not make it a good build, as any build can be played carefully pretty much and succeed."

That doesn't say anything in particular about any particular skill, it just says he doesn't see the successful use of a build as a 'proof' that it is a good build.

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To make this whole argument very simple, why run Archer's signet when you can run with a better skill?

But is there always a better skill? Some say not. But your question seems a good one to ask oneself when using any skill or build.

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If you have an example of a build that shows it as being the best choice, reviewing that build would be fine, but this whole tangent on analyzing other people's personalities and intelligence is getting way off track.

Someone had posted such a build, and sharing his experience. If some people hadn't seized the opportunity to jumped on him and that build, none of this would have happened.

Spartan1877 · Jun 15, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Amy is right you know,maybe try and read posts before attacking her.I see every1 has a dif of opinion here,Can we all agree that Archer's Signet sucks?and power shot is a good skill but there are better.There may be builds that include these skills and they may be viable and good,so what?get back on topic.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 15, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

My point is this: Citing a case in which a particular build works or that you succeeded with it does not make it a good build, as any build can be played carefully pretty much and succeed. Hence my example - playing with no skills is pretty much a dominated strategy, since ANY build can perform at least this well - yet I succeeded in what many called a very hard mission.

Ive completed THK with just 4 other team members id hardly call it hard, my friend and i with 3 hench just to get characters from our second accounts through it afk. (we also drop 1 hench cause we wanted a greater challenge) I wasnt even infused.

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Originally Posted by Spartan1877

Can we all agree that Archer's Signet sucks?

Nope im afriad ull NEVER get me to agree to that

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Originally Posted by lennymon

Archere's Signet *may* be viable in domain of secrets (I haven't tested), whereas I know Prepared Shot is. I suspect due to the built in restrictions and recharge time of Archer's Sig it will be the worst E-management elite in almost all conditions except the niche ones (like towers in ROF) but here again, all but one tower I can hit from out of range without even running through its area. If Archer's signet didn't disable non-attack skills or if it had a shorter recharge it would approach usefullness in my opinion. However, it's got both of those *major* limitations. Can it be used?

Yes, yes it can. Equip Maurders shot and fire it as soon as the u use the signet and u can use the attack skill with NO downside (for that shot) Archers Signet works in any energy denial area it also works well in areas with Large mobs of Casters. Even if u dont then continue to interupt the slow down to casting makes life considerably easier. Archers signet is infact one of the Best E-management skils in the rangers arsena, at lower energy skills it may be much less usful i dont deny that but in higher energy using skills it is amazingly poweful. The slow recharge is no problem theres plenty of ways to increase it, the disablity effect is no problem either, just simply not use it when ur trying to run away or wanting to heal and you wont notice the diable effect.

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

And since this thread is about HM, there is no way in hell that spamming Concussion Shot is going to work.

Try it and you may be suprised, all it takes is a little practise.

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

I've just finished a NM FoW Forgemaster trip using my standard Prep Shot Interrupt build, there is no way in hell Archers Signet would've been better. .

"Better" is a matter of opinion, if both builds work to the same effect and to the same result neither is better they are simply different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

The simple fact is the only reason anyone can give for using Archers Signet is to spam Concussion Shot. The moment you start using anything that isn't Concussion Shot your wasting the elite slot and you might aswell have brought something else.

Have you tried it with Quickening Zephyr and/or serpants Quickness? You can fire off ALOT of the most costly attack skills nearly non stop and deliver massive dps. (although QZ can cause problems for allies IF they dont have good energy management but thats a discussion for there own boards)

XvArchonvX · Jun 15, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

How many times do I have to say it, he based his argument, his evidence as you call it, on an incorrect, even ludicrous, use of a skill. Try to read my posts or stop responding.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I am sure someone has, but nothing in his - or your - posts indicates that he has participated in such an examiniation. His argument was based on a misuse of a skill.

What makes you think that his view of Archer's Sig is based on 1 bad build? I have also read all posts thoroughly. I don't see the logic which proves that since he discredited one bad build, all his views on the skill itself must therefore be based on that one point.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You are repeating yourself. Not only have I responded to the same query in previous posts, but in this post also. And please explain to me how I am talking personally about him in an inappropriate way in the piece you've quoted:

You're right, I am repeating myself. I have tried explaining the same thing quite a few times and you still don't seem to understand. The conversation was about a skill until you started talking about Evilsod's personality which made the use of 'ad hominem' correct. That was really the only reason I even mentioned this in the first place and seeing as how this has been blown so completely out of proportion, I believe it should just be dropped.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Deciding what is a good or efficient build is not a matter of science, but usually more a combination of 'intuition', experience and beliefs, and some reasoning. Someone used it and had success with it. Subsequently claiming that he must have had an odd definition of success is hardly a fair argument.

Agreed, but I think common sense should fit in there somewhere as well.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

But he based his 'arguments' on a llimited and inefficient application of skills, only to 'prove' his point. That is not a decent way to discuss.

I didn't see anyone give another build which was more noteworthy of discussion beyond Sophitia's build and the Concussion Shot spam, so I'm not sure what else you want him to disagree with if there is nothing else suggested.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, the dabate already goes downhill when someone makes unnecesarily negative posts and crappy arguments. That is when a discussion goes downhill.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

...it is because of your show of ignorance regarding the use and application of Ranger skills, your failure to use your mental abilities and imagination to find realistic uses.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I never insulted his intelligence. You are deliberately misreading what I post, over and over again.

Upon closer inspection of the quotes I had used for my reasoning, I do see that I used the word 'intelligence' when I should have said 'mental ability', but I think the general idea stays the same.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You are twisting reality, again, to prove your 'you're both stubborn' argument. I'd be stubborn because I don't change my opinion to agree with him. According to that reasoning, just about everyone is stubborn. Sorry, but I can't take that seriously.

So, you refuse to believe that he's right and he refuses to believe where you are right, but he is stubborn and you are not? I think you may be confused into thinking that you are an exception because you have a positive outlook on the possibilities of Archer's Sig, but be careful not to mistake positive thinking for open mindedness.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Right. This a 'just because' statement.

No, it's an opinion based on personal experience and feedback from others.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Burning Arrow wouldn't be a good choice in some place and teams, Prepared Shot in others. Few, if any, elite skills are good choices in all situations.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Just because one skill is a good elite doesn't mean that it is a good idea for every build, but the difference between them and Archer's Sig is that there are SOME builds that are improved by there use whereas there are none for Archer's Sig. Until a relavant counter point is given (i.e. a good use of Archer's Sig that is better than another build that does the same thing), then I don't see how you expect people to change their views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I don't think so, Epiniphrine stated: "My point is this: Citing a case in which a particular build works or that you succeeded with it does not make it a good build, as any build can be played carefully pretty much and succeed."

That doesn't say anything in particular about any particular skill, it just says he doesn't see the successful use of a build as a 'proof' that it is a good build.

Exactly. The completion of THK with Archer's Sig was given as evidence to prove that it was a good skill, but simple completion of this mission doesn't mean that the build used is an efficient one. The reason I said you missed the point was because you said:

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Following that reasoning every skill and every build sucks and nothing you do matters in any way.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It could as well be left out then and if I do that, his post basically shrinks to: "Archer's Signet is a lousy skill, but you get 7 others to make up for its crappitutde.".

However, the point had nothing to do with any skills whatsoever, but only the rationalization behind using an accomplishment as proof for a skill's viability.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Someone had posted such a build, and sharing his experience. If some people hadn't seized the opportunity to jumped on him and that build, none of this would have happened.

If you are talking about Evilsod's reply to the Concussion Shot spam, then I don't see how anyone 'jumped on' anyone. Points were provided to give reason as to why it would be a bad idea. I believe the debate took a turn when it started discussing the actual posters themselves rather than skills, builds, and uses of such.

In an attempt to get this debate a bit more on topic:

@ Sophitia: Try taking your Archer's Signet build from the first page into Balthazar's Great Temple training area. Use it to kill off one of the dummies. Then try taking the same build, but with Prepared Shot. You shouldn't have any energy issues with 16 Marks, especially using a 5 energy preparation. If you take this variation, it is also possible to lower your expertise to 9 and spec in Wilderness Survival. This opens the door to Kindle Arrows and Apply Poison. Using Prepared Shot in this case should give a greater damage potential. Your overall dps should also improve since you deal damage as you manage your energy and don't have to stop for a 2 second cast. Since Prepared Shot also has a short recharge, you should have an overall more stable energy management rather than excellent management just after the cast of Archer's and low management while near the end of the 45 second recharge of Archer's.

Also using Favorable Winds in the build you suggested doesn't do a whole lot since you already have RtW as your prep. Unless you are sure that you have more rangers in your group than in the enemy mobs you will encounter, FW will be more of a benefit to the enemy than you. Another point you may want to look into is using Screaming Shot instead of Marauder's, but that should make little difference.

While we're on the topic of Prepared Shot builds, here's what I use in Domain of Fear:
16 Marks
9 Exp
11 Wilderness
[skill]Prepared Shot[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Apply Poison[/skill][skill]Screaming Shot[/skill][wiki]Lightbringer's Gaze[/wiki][skill]Natural Stride[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill]
OgMU8o7h1MP52Hzs5W/rt4+GZCA

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 15, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Try taking your Archer's Signet build from the first page into Balthazar's Great Temple training area. Use it to kill off one of the dummies. Then try taking the same build, but with Prepared Shot. You shouldn't have any energy issues with 16 Marks, especially using a 5 energy preparation. If you take this variation, it is also possible to lower your expertise to 9 and spec in Wilderness Survival. This opens the door to Kindle Arrows and Apply Poison. Using Prepared Shot in this case should give a greater damage potential. Your overall dps should also improve since you deal damage as you manage your energy and don't have to stop for a 2 second cast. Since Prepared Shot also has a short recharge, you should have an overall more stable energy management rather than excellent management just after the cast of Archer's and low management while near the end of the 45 second recharge of Archer's.

Also using Favorable Winds in the build you suggested doesn't do a whole lot since you already have RtW as your prep. Unless you are sure that you have more rangers in your group than in the enemy mobs you will encounter, FW will be more of a benefit to the enemy than you. Another point you may want to look into is using Screaming Shot instead of Marauder's, but that should make little difference.

Screaming shot isnt Bad, but find the Raw damage from Maurders much more appealing. Favourable winds is there to increase ur dps, its isnt a set skill i can be easily replaced. I use it before engageing to increase the damage a little more, Ftw is a little too short lived for my liking so if it does drop u still have the speed bonus on ur arrows for interuption. Its also a spirit they can attack as distraction if your trying to make a get away. I also generallly have 2 rangers in the team too mainly because ive been helping a friend to catch up to be HM mission wise, more incentive for Fw.

Prep shot is ok however i find Archers signet more effective, especially as ive said in energy denial areas or builds. In a sence both do the same job neither on its own is "better", its simply play style, my style favours Archers signet which i find to work and be effective, ur play style favours prep shot. I have neither claimed prep shot is useless nor Archers signet is the only Elite to use, i mearly state that build (seen a few pages back) is a build i find effective in HM

People can post there different builds and allow others to try and see which on they prefer to play. it encourages new ideas and thoughts.

The recharge on Archers signet really isnt much of a issue as it 1st seems, u can fire off shots till ur low on energy, then u use it, then u can fire off alot more, by the time uve used all ur shots the signet will be atleast 1/2 recharged and ur energy will have regened to near max again so u can start the whole cycle off again, (firing till u run out of energy, by which time the signet has recharged)

Evilsod · Jun 15, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

QZ should NEVER be brought for a team that doesn't have the word 'Trapper' in it. It simply screws everyone up.

There are 2 simple things that make Archers Signet suck. The only use anyone can find for it is spamming Concussion Shot. Which isn't that useful. HM things spam, sure you can time it to work frequently... but that still doesn't change the fact your resorting to purly spamming Concussion Shot instead of doing other interrupting. And the other, SPECCING MORE IN THE ELITE DEFEATS THE POINT OF THE ELITE TO BEGIN WITH!

Better may be a matter of opinion, but the simple fact is the enemies in FoW are reasonably well balanced (well Shadows/Skeletons). Spamming Concussion Shot works nicely vs the casters, but you can't use any other interrupts or you waste Archers Signet meaning you should've just brought another elite. You may need to interupt more than once every 5 seconds (infact i guarantee you will), you need to interrupt non-spells, dazing a target when its near death is useless, Savage Shot wins.

Not only does Archers Signet suck... it limits you so much. The more you go outside this limit, the less use your getting from it because you don't save as much energy. Until we get a 25e bow attack that is based on damage ( non-elite ranged Deep Wound anyone?) then Archers Signet could become useful been as it can actually utilize its energy saving effectively, your still limited to only spamming Concussion Shot/Deep Wound, but its better than just Concussion Shot.

I've always liked both Marauders and Screaming Shot. Marauders is mainly because i don't trust Keen Arrow w/o GftE against high level enemies, specially once i found out it was bugged. Screaming is just an easy application of bleeding and a decent amount of damage. I tend to run Screaming more often if i'm running lower than 16 Marks and i know i'm facing only things that bleed.

To the above posts... for the love of god stop the f*cking quote stacks! I don't care enough to write a 5 metre long post consisting mostly of a 50 quotes + a few lines. Seriously if you've had to start resorting to that just stop... it never gets anywhere and the only people who read it are the ones you were debating with in the first place.

Smoke Trap ftw! Vanquished Tasca's Demise again with H/H for the sake of it again, lol. Stone Summit love traps.

Danax · Jun 18, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Thanks for turning my thread into a Archer's Signet skill discussion

Or a flame fest.

But thanks for the actual useful posts (that are probably only on the first page).

HalPlantagenet · Jun 18, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

We're curmudgeonly as of late, aren't we all? Well, I didn't score any black dye over the weekend, the situation in Bagdad is worse, and the stock market has a bad case of the summer flutters. No wonder wailing on HM margonites isn't quite enough.

I truly respect the reasoned deprecations of Archer's Signet. It is what it is, and yet sometimes it's more than a viable option. Sometimes applying Concussion Shot to multiple casters to facilitate interuption by the minions is exactly what's required. It is also pertinent when you need to reserve energy for a high-cost second profession skill. And there are times when there is something better.

But, I, like the OP, would deeply appreciate all this restless passion directed toward helping me find new strategies to try in HM. Perhaps, instead of focusing on skills, it might be useful, to turn the discussion to particular missions or areas and optimal teams and builds for them. For example, I just completed HM Pogahn Passage rather easily with three Burning Arrow/Poison/Bleeding Rangers, one healing monk, one orders Necro, a Searing Flame elementalist, a Ward of Harm water elementalist and a Triple Chop Axe warrior. To my surprise, the tank made all the difference. Oh yes, two of the rangers were human.